Re: How often should the rechargeable battery of an electric car be replaced?

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john61ct   100 GW

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Re: How often should the rechargeable battery of an electric car be replaced?

Post by john61ct » Nov 11 2020 1:23pm

[moderator edit: this post is a reply to a member that E-S management banned. --from mark5]

What does "dry battery" mean?

And EVs usually get charged overnight in the garage, not dangerous at all, why do you think so?

With lead you have SLA vs sealed, but all LI batteries are sealed.

End of life is determined by capacity loss, usually 70-80% means replacement time.

But at least in developed countries, wealthy people just buy a new car every 3-5 years anyway

and the old ones get junked, sold for parts.

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Re: How often should the rechargeable battery of an electric car be replaced?

Post by john61ct » Nov 11 2020 2:36pm

InsideEVs : High Prices For Leaf Battery Packs Is Attempt To Discourage Off-Gridders

https://insideevs.com/news/453505/high- ... f-gridders

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Re: How often should the rechargeable battery of an electric car be replaced?

Post by markz » Nov 11 2020 2:52pm

john61ct wrote:
Nov 11 2020 2:36pm
InsideEVs : High Prices For Leaf Battery Packs Is Attempt To Discourage Off-Gridders

https://insideevs.com/news/453505/high- ... f-gridders
Not worth it, just buy a normal i.c.e. vehicle with great fuel mileage and never have to worry about battery prices ever.
Never have to worry about range anxiety. Do you want or need to travel 800 miles, no worries...... in a i.c.e. vehicle. I'd hate to imagine the cost of repair for any electric. You got Elon Musk not wanting anyone to fix anything on his Tesla's, thats fine Elon, just fine.
VW Passat Diesel, yes.

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ZeroEm   100 kW

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Re: How often should the rechargeable battery of an electric car be replaced?

Post by ZeroEm » Nov 19 2020 5:15am

At some point where the original capacity is below 70%. The debate over EV's is simple. If your daily drive is within the battery range buy it, if not get a hybrid or ICE. The cost of maintaining an ICE will pay for your battery if taken care of. I only charge at home and don't even notice the cost of electricity. Don't miss changing oils, antifreeze and all the other parts that need routine replacement. But not spending all that money on Gas is what sticks in my mind. But don't tell me the short coming's of EV's if you don't drive one.
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Re: How often should the rechargeable battery of an electric car be replaced?

Post by Dauntless » Nov 19 2020 2:56pm

john61ct wrote:
Nov 11 2020 1:23pm
What does "dry battery" mean?
You mean like a dry cell? Electrolyte is semi solid. Not like a car battery where you literally add water.
john61ct wrote:
Nov 11 2020 1:23pm
And EVs usually get charged overnight in the garage, not dangerous at all, why do you think so?
Don't say that. The EV1 burned down houses, as have other experimenters. Use a little caution.
john61ct wrote:
Nov 11 2020 1:23pm
With lead you have SLA vs sealed, but all LI batteries are sealed.
SLA IS Sealed Lead Acid.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC!
- Arthur C. Clarke

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Re: How often should the rechargeable battery of an electric car be replaced?

Post by Hillhater » Nov 19 2020 9:21pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Nov 19 2020 5:15am
At some point where the original capacity is below 70%. The debate over EV's is simple. If your daily drive is within the battery range buy it, if not get a hybrid or ICE. The cost of maintaining an ICE will pay for your battery if taken care of. I only charge at home and don't even notice the cost of electricity. Don't miss changing oils, antifreeze and all the other parts that need routine replacement. But not spending all that money on Gas is what sticks in my mind. But don't tell me the short coming's of EV's if you don't drive one.
You may not notice the cost of electricity, ....but you are paying it. !
Even if you only charge from home roof top solar, you had to buy that solar system, and most LCOE calculations put RT solar at the top of the expensive list. ( $20c/kWh ) !
https://www.lazard.com/media/450784/laz ... vfinal.pdf
I “do not notice the cost” of gas for my ICE, because it is a minor factor compared to the costs of ...Registration, Insurances, parking, Road tolls, etc.
And maintenance costs for EVs cannot be ignored...most responsible manufacturers have a annual maintenance requirement with an associated cost, same as with ICEs. Again for me, out of warranty period ICE maintenance at a non dealership shop, or diy, is an insignificant cost.
Dont tell me the short comings of ICEs if you have not owned, driven, and maintained a few dozen !
Currently there is no economic ( financial) justification for buying an EV. !
In simple terms They are double the cost of an equivalent ICE !
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Re: How often should the rechargeable battery of an electric car be replaced?

Post by ZeroEm » Nov 20 2020 7:20am

by Hillhater » Nov 19 2020 9:21pm

You may not notice the cost of electricity, ....but you are paying it. !
Even if you only charge from home roof top solar, you had to buy that solar system, and most LCOE calculations put RT solar at the top of the expensive list. ( $20c/kWh ) !
https://www.lazard.com/media/450784/laz ... vfinal.pdf
I “do not notice the cost” of gas for my ICE, because it is a minor factor compared to the costs of ...Registration, Insurances, parking, Road tolls, etc.
And maintenance costs for EVs cannot be ignored...most responsible manufacturers have a annual maintenance requirement with an associated cost, same as with ICEs. Again for me, out of warranty period ICE maintenance at a non dealership shop, or diy, is an insignificant cost.
Dont tell me the short comings of ICEs if you have not owned, driven, and maintained a few dozen !
Currently there is no economic ( financial) justification for buying an EV. !
In simple terms They are double the cost of an equivalent ICE !
I'm 60 yrs old, my first car was family ICE car in 1975 in 1976 purchased my first ICE Car in 1977 my second, yes owned two when I was 17. Don't think I have ever owned several dozen, maybe because I performed maintenance that extended the life.
Maybe because I learned to work on cars and trucks from my Grandfather who had his own Business repairing and rebuilding cars, trucks and heavy trucks. It just could be because I worked around heavy equipment half my life. Rebuilt my first automatic transmission around 1980 and built motors for me and others.

Can not compare maintenance on ICE to EV's. As far as gasoline you may have a car that get's good MPG but here in Texas most are below 20 mpg. It's more like $0.09 KW here. Need to convince others don't waste your time with me, I know better.
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Re: How often should the rechargeable battery of an electric car be replaced?

Post by Hillhater » Nov 20 2020 4:05pm

I Dont intend to get into a “story trading “ game , other than to say i am older than you, born into a farming / auto repair family, and was rebuilding ICE motors before i was a teenager.
Owning many cars is mainly due to having a family that needed individual transport for many years, but my personal ownership probably averages 5+ years , with my current car actually coming up for 14 years and still running fine on all original components (excpt for tyres, brake pads, and 12v batteries, !).
On my own/ family vehicles, i have never had to repair or replace a major component. The only “Failures” that have caused inconvenience and significant expence , have ironically been the Pb 12v batteries which just seem to die randomly afer 4 or so years.
I dont know why you compare 20 mpg ICE cars to EVs, most any modern car will do more than double that figure,
but as i said... there is NO financial argument to justify choosing an EV over an equivalent ICE.!
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John in CR   100 GW

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Re: How often should the rechargeable battery of an electric car be replaced?

Post by John in CR » Nov 21 2020 2:32pm

Hillhater wrote:
Nov 20 2020 4:05pm
there is NO financial argument to justify choosing an EV over an equivalent ICE.!
That's an absurdly wrong statement. You can pick up some used EVs for bargain prices, and for those whose annual mileage is high but daily well within the range of the EV's battery pack, the cost of owning the EV would slaughter that of an ICE, even before tax incentives.

The other approach that would do so by an even greater amount would be for me to do my own conversion starting with a very cheap used ICE with a blown engine or transmission, or buy one that's running and sell the parts not needed.

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Re: How often should the rechargeable battery of an electric car be replaced?

Post by Hillhater » Nov 21 2020 3:50pm

John in CR wrote:
Nov 21 2020 2:32pm
Hillhater wrote:
Nov 20 2020 4:05pm
there is NO financial argument to justify choosing an EV over an equivalent ICE.!
That's an absurdly wrong statement. You can pick up some used EVs for bargain prices, ........
What is absurd is you ignoring the fact that you could also pick up an equivalent used ICE for much less than the used EV price,...with a much greater selection to choose from,...and less risk of an advanced battery replacement probability !
So the same flawed financial comparison applies.
Most ice motor/transmissions can be repaired or replaced for a fraction of the cost of a battery pack, inverter, motor set up......That DIY route is not a practical option for the average commuter/ driver., ..even just the kit of parts is not cheap. ..$16,000+ !.
https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_ ... aq7bo0kn66
and the cost for a professional conversion would be so much more !
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Re: How often should the rechargeable battery of an electric car be replaced?

Post by John in CR » Nov 21 2020 6:32pm

Hillhater wrote:
Nov 21 2020 3:50pm
John in CR wrote:
Nov 21 2020 2:32pm
Hillhater wrote:
Nov 20 2020 4:05pm
there is NO financial argument to justify choosing an EV over an equivalent ICE.!
That's an absurdly wrong statement. You can pick up some used EVs for bargain prices, ........
What is absurd is you ignoring the fact that you could also pick up an equivalent used ICE for much less than the used EV price,...with a much greater selection to choose from,...and less risk of an advanced battery replacement probability !
So the same flawed financial comparison applies.
Most ice motor/transmissions can be repaired or replaced for a fraction of the cost of a battery pack, inverter, motor set up......That DIY route is not a practical option for the average commuter/ driver., ..even just the kit of parts is not cheap. ..$16,000+ !.
https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_ ... aq7bo0kn66
and the cost for a professional conversion would be so much more !
Leaving fuel cost out of total cost is even more absurd.

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Re: How often should the rechargeable battery of an electric car be replaced?

Post by Hillhater » Nov 21 2020 7:15pm

..just as you left out the costs of electricity.....as i pointed out earlier to zeroem.
But, sure it costs more to fuel a ice, but you have to go an awful long way to save the difference using an EV
Which ever way you want to cut it,... The financial case does not work at all whilst EVs cost double their ice equivalent.
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Re: How often should the rechargeable battery of an electric car be replaced?

Post by Pentti M Reku » Nov 22 2020 8:53am

In a tweet last week Tesla CEO, Elon Musk, indicated the cost of replacing battery modules in the companies Model 3 will cost about $3000 – $7000 USD. Not a bad price considering the current batteries are designed to last 300,000 to 500,000 miles, which is the equivalent of 1,500 cycles.
Poorly deaigned air cooled batteries like in Nissan Leaf won't last as long, but I could still buy a used Leaf and it would save itself back in fuel cost alone in 3 years. 24kwh pack renewal should cost about 3000€, so a new pack would have a ROI of 2 years for me. After that it would likely serve for additional 10 years If properly taken care of. Financially used Leaf would be a good investment, it just doesn't suit my needs unfortunately.

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ZeroEm   100 kW

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Re: How often should the rechargeable battery of an electric car be replaced?

Post by ZeroEm » Nov 22 2020 9:25am

by Hillhater » Nov 20 2020 4:05pm

I Dont intend to get into a “story trading “ game , other than to say i am older than you, born into a farming / auto repair family, and was rebuilding ICE motors before i was a teenager.
Owning many cars is mainly due to having a family that needed individual transport for many years, but my personal ownership probably averages 5+ years , with my current car actually coming up for 14 years and still running fine on all original components (excpt for tyres, brake pads, and 12v batteries, !).
On my own/ family vehicles, i have never had to repair or replace a major component. The only “Failures” that have caused inconvenience and significant expence , have ironically been the Pb 12v batteries which just seem to die randomly afer 4 or so years.
I dont know why you compare 20 mpg ICE cars to EVs, most any modern car will do more than double that figure,
but as i said... there is NO financial argument to justify choosing an EV over an equivalent ICE.!
I respect your experience and the quality of your ICE Vehicles. You may have noticed the administration in the USA that has rolled back emissions in this country. I was impressed with the mileage that vehicles were getting in the UK when I was there.

I don't live Down Under or across the pond or in the State of California. I live in Texas and this is what I refer to. The majority of ICE on the road here is Trucks you show me one of these trucks that get 20 mph, the ones that drive in town get 8-14 mph. So talk up 40 mph and i'm sure everyone around you gets 40 mph. I can go out side and see two to three cars/trucks at every house here and not one of them would get 30 mph but at least half of what I will see will be trucks/SUV's all of them have V8's and none of them will even get 20 mph. Maybe you live in the country where all the driving is at the best speeds. Here in the City with traffic where you can watch traffic jams backed up for miles and all of them engines burning gas sitting still.

I don't push EV's if you live out of town it would not make sense. But in the city where top speed is 45mph and lots of stop and go traffic. My Car uses maybe 100w sitting still. Makes all the difference.
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Re: How often should the rechargeable battery of an electric car be replaced?

Post by Hillhater » Nov 22 2020 6:40pm

The fact that many folk may indeed drive uneconomical vehicles, is not a valid reason to use that fuel usage in a financial comparison of EVs with EQUIVALENT ice’s.
So, to consider those 20 mpg trucks, we have to look at an equivalent EV ..not too many choices,..but the Rivian is a similar vehicle at $75+k for a 135kWh , 300mile EPA range....ie, 2.2 miles /kWh.
Using the EIA RT Solar cost of $0.20/kWh, that would imply $0.09 / mile
Now Texas gas prices are <$2.0 gal, so at 20mpg, fuel cost would be $0.010/ mile...or 1.0c/mile more than the Rivian !
It will take a LOT of mileage ...(4 million !)...to recover the $40k extra of the Rivian over a truck like the Ram 1500 !
Even if you use that 9.0c/kWh you quoted, the saving of 5c per mile would still mean 800,000 miles before break even on fuel cost.
With the reported average daily commute quoted at less than 20 miles,.... that would imply over 100 years of use
But even at 100miles/day, it still would require 20 years of daily use !
I wonder if that battery will still be function near its capacity after 20 years ?
No !,.... financially , EVs cannot be justified currently.
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Re: How often should the rechargeable battery of an electric car be replaced?

Post by LSBW » Feb 08 2021 9:48pm

markz wrote:
Nov 11 2020 2:52pm
I'd hate to imagine the cost of repair for any electric.
VW Passat Diesel, yes.
What cost?
I leased 2017 FFE 4 years ago, $250/month, after 57,000 km of city driving I had exactly 2 problems.
Dead battery in the key fob, $1 to replace, and last winter, dead 12v battery.
I didn't even bother with Ford warranty, because it happened on the weekend, just replaced it myself, $100.
I charge for free at work, BTW.
Now lets compare 4 years of owning ICE Focus vs. my FFE.
Fuel - $5700
Oil changes, $500
Brake job - $400
Total, $6600 extra.

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