Best motor and drivetrain for large Cycletruck?

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Jun 20, 2015
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If hub motors have a weight limit of 200lbs, is there one that can handle more? Like the german made Heinzmann hub motor ? I think large cycletrucks should be able to handle 600lbs not that they would be hauling that much weight all the time. But I haul a total combined weight of 450lbs often enough to know what I would like to be able to haul. More than 600lbs on only two wheels would be very dificult, but three wheels are legal on a “pedal powered” vehicle in the US.

What mid-drive motor would you recomend for a large slow cycletruck for steep hills?; [Euro-style but for USA]. Ya I know nothing that powerful is legal, but it will be soon because at 12mph I need to draw about 1500w to get up some of our hills.

How about the Bafang BBSHD with better micro cogs [not controlled down to 1000w with a PAS crank sensor]??

I really like my large cyclone's planetary gears, but I want to be able to recomend one that is easyer to mount.

Actually I am not sure that the better grease does not cure the problem of the tiny cogs wearing out. I am going to use the sticky transmission grease, maybe even with some PTFE in my cyclone3000 gears.

Do you know where I could get the very small cogs for the BBSHD in composit or aluminum? Or is the best thing to do is to just buy extra nylon cogs, and replace them once in a while? Which could be expensive for someone that cannot work on their own bike.

If the BBSHD (in stock form) is 1600w peak? Can the controller be programed to a higher output?

It looks like the Cyclone [Mini?] 1680w needs a better controller...? I still have not found the causes of the lurching problem that was posted on the Lunacycle's forum. Looked like “chain suck”caused by a tight link, unless it was the throttle or controller.

I like the idea of a belt drive for a single gear. But as for an internal geared hub; does any one make a realy strong three speed that can handle close enough to a 100Nm output?

My Cyclone3000 already bent one of my rear cog sprockets on my MTB cassette, so I am thinking about these and I could use the larger chain I wanted to before I discovered that I realy do need at least three gears.

Nexus-3 IGH “It seems to be able to easily take 1500W of power”?? But even better the planetary gearing in the “Sturmy Archer 3 speed IGH the gears are big and have lots of teeth”.

Is that drawing 1500watts from the battery, or the output?
 
I am 6'5" and weigh 380lbs, add my battery and mxus 3kw motor now thats a lot more then 200lb rating for hub motor. Not sure where you got that 200lb number from. Chalo is in the same league as me for height and weight, I am sure others are as well.
 
The larger geared hub motors have a weight limit of 300 pounds total weight, when climbing long, and or steep hills. The weight limit increases a lot if the ground is more flat, but at 400 pounds those type motors do over heat pretty quick.

200 pounds is a good weight limit for the tiny geared motors. This weight limit thing, Jason did this for warranty purposes, since his entire kit carries a full year of warranty. After a few years, he got quite tired of replacing the smaller geared motors when the big guy bought one, and lived in the mountains. Jason also got me to test his motors to destruction, and we came up with 300 pounds total weight for the larger geared motors, and he stopped selling the tiny ones altogether.

DD motors also got the same 300 pound limit, for warranty purposes. However, I never got one of those to fail, when run on 48v 22 amps. The test hill is 6 miles long, starting out at a very mild grade, 3% by mile 3, 5% by mile 4, and after that 7 or 8%. DD motors carrying 400 pounds easily made the top, but were about as hot as you dare get one by the last mile of 8%. Climate matters too, so these tests were done in summer, usually in temperatures of 105 F or more. Also on a dry day, when there would be no cooling molecules of water in that air either. Worst conditions likely in most of the USA, except Phoenix.


Simply upping the size of the DD motor, and the current you give it to 2000w, got me to the top of the same hill weighing 450 pounds, and nearly cool motor. The key, as always, enough power to get that weight up the hill without letting rpm drop too much. At 2000w, I'd climb that hill at 15 mph.


So now to the truck. AW has one, almost a cycle motor home. His solutions have always just been enough power to maintain 15 mph or more, on usually flatter Phoenix terrain. Big hub motors, 2000w plus, it works. He also runs a smaller than 26" wheel these days, which definitely helps hub motor rpm.


But the idea of mid drive is definitely even better, up to the point you start overpowering the bike chain and gears. I still think the way to go if you will mid drive a really big weight, is to take a bit of gasser technology, and put it to use on an electric mid drive. Look at a Whizzer, it works. Hell, early motorcycles used that very same approach, and guys make great gas bikes with weed whackers and some v belt pulleys today. Gear it as low as you need, and use it to go relatively slow all the time, if the weight is going to be extreme, such as over 600 pounds for the entire vehicle and cargo, or passengers. Build a half ton bike truck, and I'd want to run about 10 mph tops, and gear it for that would be the thing to do. Big ass pulley on the drive wheel.
 
Rassy used a high-speed DD hubmotor as a mid mount. It was a one speed, but the external chain and sprockets can gear it way down. Rassy used it to drive a 20-inch wheel to provide extreme climbing ability.
 
I'd be thinking about the 4kw cyclone running a separate drive chain. It's inexpensive and durable. Feed it 72v and your low gear should still go fairly quick.
 
Of all internally geared hubs, only the Rohloff and NuVinci are rated and proven for the power levels you're discussing. And you still have to take care not to exceed their input torque ratings.

My cycle truck does fine at the moment with a 48V x 35A Crystalyte 5305 in a 20" front wheel on Austin Texas hills. I don't think it would be at all satisfactory in Seattle conditions with a heavier load. Only the slowest custom windings of direct drive hub motors could do that job adequately, and then you'd face two difficult problems: sharply limited top speed, with motor braking engaging as you exceed the motor's free speed; and a weaker than normal wheel on a bike that demands a stronger than normal wheel.

I've had fine results with the BBS02 at a gross vehicle weight of over 500 pounds, with 44t front and 13-34t or 16-40t rear gearing and a 700C wheel. My neighborhood isn't nearly as steep as Seattle, and I'm willing to pedal hard when appropriate. But the low gears in those setups would easily spin up to RPM levels that made it challenging to pedal along, on even the steepest grades in my usual routes.

The key to BBSxx reliability seems to the same as getting hub motors to be reliable: use them within their current rating (so don't jack up the amps like Luna does), and most of all let them spin up into the higher part of their speed range. That moderates the current load (minimizing heat buildup) and torque in the gear reduction (minimizing stress on the gears).

Much as I detest 10 and 11 speed rear gearing generally, I think you have a good application for using a BBSHD with 42t front and 11-50 or 11-52t rear cassette (which would only be available for a 10/11/12 speed system). 42/52 is a deep reduction, and I think with that gear ratio a BBSHD should be able to tackle Seattle hills with a very heavy load. If I remember correctly that your cycle truck has a 20 inch rear wheel-- combined with the above gears, that's an absurdly low ratio that should make it easy for the BBSHD to winch you up whatever you've got.
 
Weaker and more expensive?

Chalo said:
Much as I detest 10 and 11 speed rear gearing generally

I agree that the Cyclone 3kw is a good kit to buy, like I said I am 380'ish lbs and I could climb steep hills of 20% with ease, and when I felt the motor, it was just luke warm.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/50.9281231,-114.1379885/50.9271581,-114.1376265/@50.9274101,-114.1384566,255m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e2
 
my cyclone3000 unit is using 40-45 amp hour per mile. at less than 20mph ususlay averaging about 12mph.....so would a big hubmotor use a lot more in the same situaltion?? or maybe a little more only?

I do want to convert to a single speed when I get a bigger battery....3 times the 13.5ah size I am working with now.
 
I think this would be the best solution. and use a sinlge speed hub that can hold a large sprocket. 415 chain and just two sprockets. although a two seed system would very nice.


Grantmac said:
I'd be thinking about the 4kw cyclone running a separate drive chain. It's inexpensive and durable. Feed it 72v and your low gear should still go fairly quick.
 
Hugh-Jassman said:
I think this would be the best solution. and use a sinlge speed hub that can hold a large sprocket. 415 chain and just two sprockets. although a two seed system would very nice.


Grantmac said:
I'd be thinking about the 4kw cyclone running a separate drive chain. It's inexpensive and durable. Feed it 72v and your low gear should still go fairly quick.

I think you can get freewheeling 219 sprockets and even if not it isn't a hard motor to push.
219 would be my preference to keep sprockets a good size.
 
My gear reductions are from the motor its self; 6:1 in the plaetary gears?? then 14 to 44t and thirdly 40 to 34-rear or 32 to 34-rear.....so far I don't really need the 32t front sprocket chain wheel. I should make a video climbing our worst hill of 16% with something heavy in my trailer.

I have some KMC Industrial 415 Speed Chain to use if I ever convert to a single speed. I even got some free-wheeling sprockets with a motor shaft adapter. And I did some thinking about the ratio to use on this thread towords the end:https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=94449&start=25


I have also started accelerating hard just to feel the rush that drawing 1800watts out my battery gives. Infact I passed a cyclist on the trail coming home just because I wanted to see how easy it was to do it hauling a bucha stuff on my trailer and bike. Good thing my chain didn't pop.
How much Nm would 1800 battery watt draw produce? [100Nm=22.4pounds force or 73.76 foot poounds]



Chalo said:
I've had fine results with the BBS02 at a gross vehicle weight of over 500 pounds, with 44t front and 13-34t or 16-40t rear gearing and a 700C wheel. My neighborhood isn't nearly as steep as Seattle, and I'm willing to pedal hard when appropriate. But the low gears in those setups would easily spin up to RPM levels that made it challenging to pedal along, on even the steepest grades in my usual routes.
 
5am visuelisation: still not fully uderstanding the higher voltage thing: the RPM goes up at a given wattage, but what happens when trying to maintain the same slow speed? Less amps to climb the same hill in the same low gear??? and less heat produced at a faster RPM??

Well I am definatly going to need a higher voltage than the 52v battery I have. And maybe 72v is a much better volatage for hill climbing..I could use an even lower gear; but I think my amp-hour use per-mile would go up even if using the same 16:1 gear ratio.?? or down?

I had not thought of it in those terms because I am not a hot rodder, just a MtGoat cycletrucker.

I would need a battery that can be drained faster...gotta find a page about building higher voltage batteries.

So what happens with more slower turns and a higher voltage? A lot more tourque thrust per watt?

Are these cyclone3000 motors a slower turn than the BBSHD?



Grantmac said:
I'd be thinking about the 4kw cyclone running a separate drive chain. It's inexpensive and durable. Feed it 72v and your low gear should still go fairly quick.
 
can you show me where these are? do they bolt on a free wheel? do they use 1/2 inch pitch chain? I have some 415 KMC speed chain ready to use as soon as I get a bigger battery.

219 chain with no specs what makes this chain better than the 415 chain??

https://www.margay.com/shopmargay/D.I.D-219-HTM-Racing-Kart-Chain-114L.html

67 to 97 teeth
https://www.margay.com/shopmargay/-219-Sprockets.html





Grantmac said:
I think you can get freewheeling 219 sprockets and even if not it isn't a hard motor to push.
219 would be my preference to keep sprockets a good size.
 
Hugh-Jassman said:
How much Nm would 1800 battery watt draw produce? [100Nm=22.4pounds force or 73.76 foot poounds]

That's a function of phase amps and motor efficiency, among other factors. Battery wattage alone won't tell you. In practice, there's a maximum torque any given motor can make at saturation current, and most controllers don't deliver enough current to saturate the motors they drive.

The long block 2-4kW Cyclone motor we use for e-pedicabs has a maximum torque output rating of 130Nm. The short block version more commonly used on bicycles has a max torque rating of 100Nm.
 
Hugh-Jassman said:
can you show me where these are? do they bolt on a free wheel? do they use 1/2 inch pitch chain?

219 chain is .306" pitch-- much smaller than 415 or #41 chain. The point of it is to have high tooth counts without needing a sprocket the size of a manhole cover.
 
Hugh-Jassman said:
so then I would also need new sprockets on the motor as well. and just forget using a crank set with the 219 chain?

Chalo said:
219 chain is .306" pitch-- much smaller than 415 or #41 chain. The point of it is to have high tooth counts without needing a sprocket the size of a manhole cover.

A crank doesn't know what kind of sprocket it has on it. But front and rear sprockets have to work together, and they have to interface with the crank, hub, and/or motor. Sometimes that means adding features to a sprocket, or making an adapter plate, or even fabbing a custom sprocket.
 
NOT running the motor through the crank but instead using a separate driveline entirely is really the only way to efficiently use more than 1000w and also contribute meaningfully to the propulsion of the bike.
In stump pulling gear with 66v nominal my 3kw cyclone will do 32-34km/h from what I've been able to test. But the pedals provide absolutely no extra power. Running it at a cadence your legs can match does nothing except produce heat. The exception is down hill.
 
For a serious industrial cycletruck...I would use a single-speed LightningRods big block as a left-side drive "one speed" at somewhere around 3000W or more Using a 16-inch moped rim which is equal to a 20-inch bicycle rim).

For a variety of reasons, I would stick with a 52V battery pack, but I would use high amps for the temporary peaks...just my opinion...
 
my chain broke today, had to walk and now fix it before I can get home.

I was looking at ENO free wheel with sprockets, but I will need to put a larger sprocket on it somehow. 14t on the motor back to 36t-40t on the rear.

I did not see a way to put chain-wheels for the crank to fit 219 chain????
this cyclone will not fit on the left side without crank arm interferance. So I can build an extension on the rear of my bike, and use a smaller wheel with better hub. I don't use the pedal except to look like I am using them.

Grantmac said:
NOT running the motor through the crank but instead using a separate driveline entirely is really the only way to efficiently use more than 1000w and also contribute meaningfully to the propulsion of the bike.
In stump pulling gear with 66v nominal my 3kw cyclone will do 32-34km/h from what I've been able to test. But the pedals provide absolutely no extra power. Running it at a cadence your legs can match does nothing except produce heat. The exception is down hill.
 
Use a flanged freewheel from sickbikeparts.com with a sprocket of whatever size you like.

http://sickbikeparts.com/front-freewheel/

http://sickbikeparts.com/front-freewheel-heavy-duty/

http://sickbikeparts.com/chainring-freewheel-40-tooth/

http://sickbikeparts.com/chainring-freewheel-48-tooth/
 
will these replace the one that comes with the cyclone kit?
http://sickbikeparts.com/front-freewheel-heavy-duty/

What are the problems of using 72volts for the motor? The 52v batterys will be much cheaper than 72v. What other differences are there?

What other chain besides the 415 would fit the 1/2 inch sprockets that I already have on my bike? But I read that there are good advantages to using a smaller pitch chain on large sprockets. All I need are some 219 chainwheels to fit my crank.

I think the only option to bypassing the crank is to run a chain directly to the rear around the crank spindle. And a second chain frm the human powered crank set to the rear. It Maybe very dificult to route two chains past the 2.25” drive tire.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/v...&sid=5357c6879c872b961dad4c594267d010#p206163

To use the width extenders that are on the left side, moving them to the right side, and turn the motor around could be even worse unless I see how some one has already done it.

But what I really need is a heavy duty sprocket adapter to freehub body. I will try making one out of used sprockets from an old cassette if I can find 38t sprockets to fit. I don't want to give up my Velocity hub for a freewheel hub. And I don't want to build a rear extension just to create a place to put the motor; it would be impossible to turn my bike upside down to work on it.

I should design a new larger bike to build in the future when people start buying these by the millions. [just a few years]

Has anyone mounted a Cyclone3000 for a left side drive?? I sapose all this learning keeps my 69year old brain flexable. My body has lost most of it's flexability already.
 
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