Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.
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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 03 2021 2:11am

Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:06am
I deal with ex-tubeless stuff on the daily. Covered with heavy, sticky scabs. The tires will barely tear off the rim. No thanks.

I stand by my prediction that you'll make fun of yourself for buying the hype.
You seriously crack me up.

It's not a matter of buying into any hype - they have more than proven themselves - for years and thousands of trouble-free miles.

It just works if you do it proper - even in a foot of snow when it's 10 below out I have not had an issue.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Chalo » Nov 03 2021 2:17am

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:11am
Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:06am
I deal with ex-tubeless stuff on the daily. Covered with heavy, sticky scabs. The tires will barely tear off the rim. No thanks.

I stand by my prediction that you'll make fun of yourself for buying the hype.
You seriously crack me up.

It's not a matter of buying into any hype - they have more than proven themselves - for years and thousands of trouble-free miles.

It just works if you do it proper - even in a foot of snow when it's 10 below out I have not had an issue.
Whatever. I've probably dealt with a thousand times as many bikes as you have, for more than thirty years. What do I know? Only the paltry things that direct experience can teach you.

Check in with me in 20 to let me know what you think about tubeless with sealant.

Why do you think nobody uses it except bike wankers? When's the last time you heard of Stan's or Orange Seal in a car, or a motorcycle? A wheelbarrow? Literally anything else?
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 03 2021 2:23am

Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:17am
Whatever. I've probably dealt with a thousand times as many bikes as you have, for more than thirty years.
Wow, can I like worship you?

I don't care how many bikes you've dealt with - tubeless is a well proven technology.

It's not really open for debate or speculation. You are clearly in some form of denial.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Chalo » Nov 03 2021 2:25am

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:23am
I don't care how many bikes you've dealt with - tubeless is a well proven technology.
No, it's a fad. It'll go away. In the meantime and for years after it's passé it will torment those of us who have to service wankers' bikes.
Last edited by Chalo on Nov 03 2021 2:27am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 03 2021 2:26am

Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:17am
Why do you think nobody uses it except bike wankers? When's the last time you heard of Stan's or Orange Seal in a car, or a motorcycle? A wheelbarrow? Literally anything else?
Really showing your ignorance.

"By 1955 tubeless tires became standard equipment on new cars."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tubeless_tire

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 03 2021 2:26am

Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:25am
3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:23am
I don't care how many bikes you've dealt with - tubeless is a well proven technology.
No it's a fad. It'll go away. In the meantime and for years after it's passé it will torment those of us who have to service wankers' bikes.
Sure dude, keep humping that dream.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Chalo » Nov 03 2021 2:27am

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:26am
Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:17am
Why do you think nobody uses it except bike wankers? When's the last time you heard of Stan's or Orange Seal in a car, or a motorcycle? A wheelbarrow? Literally anything else?
Really showing your ignorance.

"By 1955 tubeless tires became standard equipment on new cars."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tubeless_tire
Does your car have sealant in the tires? Does anybody's?
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 03 2021 2:29am

Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:27am
Does your car have sealant in the tires? Does anybody's?
You can actually go tubeless without the sealant. But the sealant repairs punctures and has other benefits.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Chalo » Nov 03 2021 2:31am

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:29am
Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:27am
Does your car have sealant in the tires? Does anybody's?
You can actually go tubeless without the sealant. But the sealant repairs punctures and has other benefits.
If that were the custom, it wouldn't be nearly as loathsome. And nobody would use it after getting an unrepairable flat on the road or trail.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 03 2021 2:33am

Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:31am
3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:29am
Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:27am
Does your car have sealant in the tires? Does anybody's?
You can actually go tubeless without the sealant. But the sealant repairs punctures and has other benefits.
If that were the custom, it wouldn't be nearly as loathsome. And nobody would use it after getting an unrepairable flat on the road or trail.
If you're running tubeless, why wouldn't you want punctures to automatically seal? Sure you can do it, but why?

And for the record, I can top off a tire with sealant in about 2-minutes. It's at least a couple magnitudes easier than changing an inner tube.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Chalo » Nov 03 2021 3:19am

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:33am
And for the record, I can top off a tire with sealant in about 2-minutes. It's at least a couple magnitudes easier than changing an inner tube.
It doesn't disappear, and neither does the old sealant that isn't working anymore. It all just increases the problem. It's like adding duct tape over your undies instead of going to the bathroom.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 03 2021 3:23am

Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 3:19am
It doesn't disappear, and neither does the old sealant that isn't working anymore. It all just increases the problem. It's like adding duct tape over your undies instead of going to the bathroom.
It has not at all been even slightly an issue for me. You are inventing problems that have not been problems.

It's like when someone is fixed in their ways, or plain ignorant, so they make all kinds of excuses why they won't change.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Chalo » Nov 03 2021 3:35am

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 03 2021 3:23am
Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 3:19am
It doesn't disappear, and neither does the old sealant that isn't working anymore. It all just increases the problem. It's like adding duct tape over your undies instead of going to the bathroom.
It has not at all been even slightly an issue for me. You are inventing problems that have not been problems.
I deal with the aftermath of everybody's bike problems. You only have to make excuses for your own.

Replacing a tube is easy, clean, fast. Tubeless, not so much. One day maybe you'll live with someone who points out what a gross mess your stupid tires are. Maybe you'll be able to hear her/him in a way that I can't get through.
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 03 2021 3:43am

Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 3:35am
Replacing a tube is easy, clean, fast. Tubeless, not so much. One day maybe you'll live with someone who points out what a gross mess your stupid tires are. Maybe you'll be able to hear her/him in a way that I can't get through.
You see, it's not a problem. I wore a tire out on one charge of sealant. There is no tube, there is nothing to fix or cleanup.

The only thing that is stupid is you trying to convince me there is a problem when I have had no issues with it after thousands of miles and hundreds of days on rough trails.

On the other hand, I had countless problems running tubes, and spent countless hours preparing and replacing them. Taking the rear wheel off the sur run, getting the tire off the rim, putting a new tube in, get the tire back on the rim and the wheel back on the bike takes some time and with tubes I was doing that as often as once a week.

After going tubeless, nothing! Nada! Zip! In fact, it works so well, that more than half a year will go by before I even have to add some air. Not the case with inner tubes.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Cheburator » Nov 03 2021 4:45am

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 03 2021 1:25am
Personally I've been running tubeless (not TuBliss) for years and couldn't be happier.
Have you converted standart Sur-ron wheels to tubeless? If yes, I would appreciate advice how to do it properly.
I want to go tubeless next season, but considered using TuBliss kit as it seems to be more reliable then gorilla tape or similar.
But if there is a trustworthy way of converting stock wheels to tubeless, I would be glad to save some $$$

P.S. You are paying too much attention to Chalo. He advices people to use mechanical brakes because he is having too much problems with hydraulics :lol:
Last edited by Cheburator on Nov 03 2021 4:55am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Nov 03 2021 4:47am

tubeless is great
tubliss works perfect. (the grip with 0,5bar is crazy)


forget ppl who are too dumb in using tubeless tires.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ZeroEm » Nov 03 2021 9:05am

Now we are name calling. :shock:
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by SolarBeaver » Nov 03 2021 10:06am

Have anyone measured the weight of Nuetech Tubliss? Is the whole setup with the rimrock installed lighter than regular tube + rimrock?

Also if someone is running Shinko SR241 with TuBliss setup could you please tell what's your experience on those tires on wet grass, soil, gravel and forest trails in general?
It seems to be harder to change tires with TuBliss, so I'm considering just running SR241 on both wheels most of the time. I have SR241's on stock rims and it's not that great on something wet, but with lower PSI it should get much better or am I mistaken?

I run 80% off-road 20% pavement, maybe I'm better off with Dunlop K990 for front and rear? It's for sure better for off-road, but I have some doubts about the pavement with those.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by smdub » Nov 03 2021 12:44pm

I run the SR241s and TuBliss rear. Trials tires will hook up on anything as long as they aren't packed w/ mud. Love the heck out of mine on the rear. Not as big a fan on the front. I originally put it on there to use the SurRon for the scout laps at Trials events - maybe even try to use it at one of them. It doesn't have tight enough steering so I gave up on the latter idea fairly quick. The SR241 on the front is fine at speed until it isn't. When it starts to wash out it is very sudden. A more typ dirt knobby is far more progessive. They also tend to have knobs much farther over on the side than a trials tire so you can lean over a MX knobby farther. I haven't measured my SR241 but its likely a lot softer durometer than nearly any mx tire except a hybrid enduro.

The E-XC had Michelin Starcross 5 Meds mounted when I picked it up. Hard as a rock (~75 ShoreA) and SUCKS in the wet over roots/rocks. Works great in wet & muddy single track though. I'm going to put the oem rear tire back on (its trials-like) the E-XC. Will keep the front on for now.
Surron (heavily modded), X160 (kid's), '21 Freeride E-XC

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Chalo » Nov 03 2021 1:30pm

Cheburator wrote:
Nov 03 2021 4:45am
You are paying too much attention to Chalo. He advices people to use mechanical brakes because he is having too much problems with hydraulics :lol:
So, can I assume you are able to service your hydraulic brakes on the roadside when they crap out? Set your tubeless tire bead after patching your tire casing while out on a long ride?
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by SolarBeaver » Nov 03 2021 2:26pm

smdub wrote:
Nov 03 2021 12:44pm
I run the SR241s and TuBliss rear. Trials tires will hook up on anything as long as they aren't packed w/ mud. Love the heck out of mine on the rear. Not as big a fan on the front. I originally put it on there to use the SurRon for the scout laps at Trials events - maybe even try to use it at one of them. It doesn't have tight enough steering so I gave up on the latter idea fairly quick. The SR241 on the front is fine at speed until it isn't. When it starts to wash out it is very sudden. A more typ dirt knobby is far more progessive. They also tend to have knobs much farther over on the side than a trials tire so you can lean over a MX knobby farther. I haven't measured my SR241 but its likely a lot softer durometer than nearly any mx tire except a hybrid enduro.

The E-XC had Michelin Starcross 5 Meds mounted when I picked it up. Hard as a rock (~75 ShoreA) and SUCKS in the wet over roots/rocks. Works great in wet & muddy single track though. I'm going to put the oem rear tire back on (its trials-like) the E-XC. Will keep the front on for now.
Thanks!

After going back and forth I've decided to stick with 19/16 setup, don't think all that extra hassle with the weight is worth it anymore. If I want a more full-sized enduro feel I'm better off buying a full-sized gas bike enduro instead :lol:

On top of that, I can run lightweight Mitas Terra Force MX SM front and more importantly super grippy Shinko 525 cheater on the rear.

Do I still have to get a rising linkage with this or is Shinko 525 tall enough without any mods required?

And want to thank all you guys for all the advice, that was really helpful! :bigthumb:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 03 2021 2:32pm

Cheburator wrote:
Nov 03 2021 4:45am
3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 03 2021 1:25am
Personally I've been running tubeless (not TuBliss) for years and couldn't be happier.
Have you converted standart Sur-ron wheels to tubeless? If yes, I would appreciate advice how to do it properly.
I want to go tubeless next season, but considered using TuBliss kit as it seems to be more reliable then gorilla tape or similar.
But if there is a trustworthy way of converting stock wheels to tubeless, I would be glad to save some $$$
Yeah, if you search this thread for tubeless you will see I posted a part list and some instructions (you can just skip to page two of the results because it's all noise from the Chalo.
Cheburator wrote:
Nov 03 2021 4:45am
P.S. You are paying too much attention to Chalo. He advices people to use mechanical brakes because he is having too much problems with hydraulics :lol:
:lol:
Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 1:30pm
So, can I assume you are able to service your hydraulic brakes on the roadside when they crap out? Set your tubeless tire bead after patching your tire casing while out on a long ride?
Let's count the number of times my hydraulic brakes have crapped out on roadside or I needed to set the bead after patching.

Hmmm, 0 and done. :P

Do you not understand that tubeless literally eliminates the tube and thus the need for patching? I mean, if you are tubeless, what the hell are you patching? :roll:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Chalo » Nov 03 2021 4:13pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 03 2021 2:32pm
Do you not understand that tubeless literally eliminates the tube and thus the need for patching? I mean, if you are tubeless, what the hell are you patching? :roll:
Maybe you haven't gotten tire cuts that baptized you and your bike with vegan yogurt, but my coworkers certainly have. Sometimes a dart or a bacon strip plug ain't gonna do it, so you have to call for rescue (and rescue may not appreciate being asked to carry your drippy messy bike). With a tubed tire, you patch or replace the tube, stick a folded dollar bill behind the casing cut, pump up and proceed.

After you get your bike home and mop off all the corruption, you have the choice of patching your tubeless tire from the inside, or throwing it away. Because it will already have a buildup of fresh mozzarella sticking to the inside, most tubeless dingdongs opt to replace.

Here are a couple of the donated tires at the community bike shop that weren't nasty enough to throw away immediately. Thanks for the garbage, dingdongs:
IMG_20211103_160652867~2.jpg
IMG_20211103_160652867~2.jpg (1.67 MiB) Viewed 357 times
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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 03 2021 4:16pm

Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 4:13pm
After you get your bike home and mop off all the corruption
You're delirious. That is all I have to say to you on the subject and done trying to reason with you.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by AZeBikeGuy » Nov 03 2021 5:16pm

I come from the moto world, have over a million miles on them with about half in the dirt... I also have many, many thousands of miles on bicycles with a large portion off-road, some in the very remote backcountry... I have my own take on tubeless, etc. and recognize we all have our own perspectives and use our machines differently in different places so there aren't hard and fast rules about the matter.

I'll start by stating that on my electric fat-bike that has high-quality tubeless ready rims and tires I still run tubes but they are full of stans (2-4x what they recommend).


I'm not that keen on going fully tubeless on a wheel that even though it's called "tubeless-ready" requires sealant to be tubeless. I had a lot of motos with spoke rims and all with an exception I'll get too I ran tubes in. OTOH all my motos with non-spoke rims I ran tubeless... simple punctures were quick duty to address with a plug kit and in all those miles never had anything a plug kit wouldn't address. On the spoke wheels I got really good at repairing flats trail side and always carried a spare front tube (can use the front tubes in the rear if push comes to shove)... but it's really hard, even just breaking the bead is really hard (keep chanting - finesse & patience, not force!) and I replaced all my tires if just for the practice - also to make sure they were done right too since I've had too many tubes pinched by others - they usually have a low paid kid doing that stuff at the shops.

When I got my first BMW that had the cross spoke rims now it was the best of both worlds... the spoke heads are outside the beads so no sealant required and you can still true them etc. No tubes and use plug kits for repair - again never let down in my history.


Now with the bikes, here in AZ, no matter where you ride you are going to pick up thorns (*lots* of goat heads everywhere) and if you just run tubes without any sealant you will be dealing with a flat every other ride. I hated slime, just wouldn't go there and dealt with patching trail side and carrying spare tubes.

Then I was introduced to stans and my world is a much better place. Saw a demo at the overland expo and that convinced me to try it in my tubes and I've never looked back. Pretty much any mess is contained in the tubes (like a stans condom) and any tiny bit that manages it's way out onto the wheel is easily cleaned up - I couldn't care less if some gets on the inside of the tires. New tires, throw out old tubes/tires, rinse talc out of new tubes with water, fill with stans then install new tires just like normal, easy peasy. There is some tiny learning curve to making it clean, quick and easy but it's really no big deal.

I started doing this close to 10,000mi ago on my electric bike and instead of getting flats every other ride I get zero flats - haven't had one yet <touch wood>. Stopped bothering with carrying patches and tubes except when going into the backcountry where the consequences are much higher (means a possible long rough walk and I'm old and disabled) since rescue may not be easy or even achievable. I still carry a pump but since stans it only gets used for other people (usually attractive gals - I never said I wasn't a dirty old man ;-} ).

While I understand that going fully tubeless may buy a small bit of ability to run lower pressures or go faster over rocks that might give a pinch flat with a tube or tear a valve stem and it will save a little weight, I just don't see the point of the hassle, especially on electric... maybe some day I'll give it a try but if a rim can't hold air without sealant it's pretty well branded in my head to run a tube... it does hardly seem worth the much greater hassle when it comes time to change tires - I'm sorry, it just doesn't get much easier than my stans in the tubes ritual...


I've looked at the tubliss but that also seems way more cost/hassle than any benefits it might bring.. admittedly no first hand though.. last I checked they don't make them for the wheels/tires I run regardless...


But hey - we all have to find what works for best for each of us... there's not so much right ways and wrong ways, just cost/benefit IMO... and it's best to keep an open mind - so easy to get locked in our ways and admittedly that slowed my stans adoption and I realize I was just being stupid... the cost of going fully tubeless in the hassle doesn't seem worth the very minor benefits... to me...


YMMV

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