Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

General Discussion about large electric scooters and motorcycles and other things with no pedals.
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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Chalo » Nov 03 2021 5:21pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 03 2021 4:16pm
Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 4:13pm
After you get your bike home and mop off all the corruption
You're delirious. That is all I have to say to you on the subject and done trying to reason with you.
Whatever you say.

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Chalo » Nov 03 2021 5:23pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 03 2021 4:16pm
Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 4:13pm
After you get your bike home and mop off all the corruption
You're delirious. That is all I have to say to you on the subject and done trying to reason with you.
Whatever you say.

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This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 03 2021 5:26pm

Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 5:21pm
Whatever you say.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Man talk about some straight propaganda from the innertube sector. Jeeez

So obviously staged.

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Chalo   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Chalo » Nov 03 2021 6:20pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 03 2021 5:26pm
Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 5:21pm
Whatever you say.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Man talk about some straight propaganda from the innertube sector. Jeeez

So obviously staged.
I've seen worse in my own bike shop, so I doubt it. One of the images is from a YouTube video in which inflation goes awry, so that accounts for the decent lighting.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 03 2021 6:26pm

Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 6:20pm
I've seen worse in my own bike shop, so I doubt it.
I suppose it is likely for clowns to be in a circus, so I don't doubt it.

All your pictures and folklore account for is stupidity, and surely there is no shortage of that coming from you.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by SolarBeaver » Nov 03 2021 6:42pm

Kinda regret bringing this topic in :confused:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by AZeBikeGuy » Nov 03 2021 6:47pm

I've seen that kind of mess - it can be real

If the tire doesn't seat on the bead right while inflating and pops off it is a huge mess and that stuff stains and goes everywhere

However - anytime I've seen it, it was pilot error... installer wasn't being careful about ensuring the bead was seated properly during inflation and only on rims that don't have the great seats for the bead... I've seen this with tubes too - probably even worse since it has to build up enough pressure to rupture the tube that squeezes through the gap between the bead and the rim... but again it's simply the installer not being careful enough and I've only seen it on rims where the tire is loose in the rim when it's "seated"...

OTOH it is a huge mess for a small error that with just tubes would only end up being a scrapped tube...


Not going to stop me from running stans in my tubes though - I've got good rims and I'm *very* careful while seating the beads after witnessing this a couple of times...

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 03 2021 7:10pm

It's like showing the worse possible car wreck in history and proclaim that is why no one should drive. :roll:

First time I made a little mess, though, mostly on cardboard which I just threw away along with some rubber gloves. Hardly a big deal for years of trouble free miles.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by AZeBikeGuy » Nov 03 2021 8:36pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 03 2021 7:10pm
It's like showing the worse possible car wreck in history and proclaim that is why no one should drive. :roll:

First time I made a little mess, though, mostly on cardboard which I just threw away along with some rubber gloves. Hardly a big deal for years of trouble free miles.
I couldn't agree more however the first time I saw one it made a mess all over the walls, ceiling, clothes, nearby car, etc. and took a long time to clean up - and you better do it immediately and prioritize the important stuff since it will cure quickly - so it was a big deal... but as far as I'm concerned at least it was a learning experience at someone else's expense ( however I did help with the cleanup) and kept me from doing that...


OTOH I'm not going to get all dogmatic about it - do what works for you

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 03 2021 9:11pm

AZeBikeGuy wrote:
Nov 03 2021 8:36pm
OTOH I'm not going to get all dogmatic about it - do what works for you
I completely agree that people should do what works best for them.

But I'm going to have an issue when someone tries to tell me that I don't know what works for me regarding something proven to work for me.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by AZeBikeGuy » Nov 03 2021 9:24pm

3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 03 2021 9:11pm
..But I'm going to have an issue when someone tries to tell me that I don't know what works for me regarding something proven to work for me.
I'm not telling you what works for you

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 03 2021 9:24pm

AZeBikeGuy wrote:
Nov 03 2021 9:24pm
3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 03 2021 9:11pm
..But I'm going to have an issue when someone tries to tell me that I don't know what works for me regarding something proven to work for me.
I'm not telling you what works for you
I'm not talking about you.

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markz   100 GW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by markz » Nov 04 2021 12:42am

It is quite amusing actually, I can't believe I almost missed reading it.
I had a slime filled inner tube that made a little mess, another clogged the valve but I never tried tubeless. Only tried motorcycle and moped tires/tubes/rims with bicycle spokes/hubs.
Some people love tubeless and will fight to the end on their mound because it worked for them, but it doesnt work for others.
Who cares, getting so upset over it.
Changing an inner tube is so quick and easy. Bring along a patch kit or a spare tube. Takes no time at all.
Hate to be stranded and have to call someone to pick me up with tubeless.
I've had countless flats, rear hub motor is the hardest to fix but I can do it fast. Even faster on a front non hub motor. Maybe a few seconds longer on non hub motor rear dealing with the chain and rd.


SolarBeaver wrote:
Nov 03 2021 6:42pm
Kinda regret bringing this topic in :confused:

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 04 2021 1:01am

markz wrote:
Nov 04 2021 12:42am
Some people love tubeless and will fight to the end on their mound because it worked for them, but it doesnt work for others.
I love my tubeless but it's not that I am some kind of tubeless evangelist. It's when someone is spewing bullshit about something that I have experience with, I'm going to call them out. Doesn't mater what the topic is.
markz wrote:
Nov 04 2021 12:42am
Changing an inner tube is so quick and easy. Bring along a patch kit or a spare tube. Takes no time at all.
Can't say I agree. On the Sur Ron, first you have to loosen the chain tensioners, then you have to loosen the axle allen and nut, take the wheel off, get the tire off the rim, get the new tube in (and hope you don't pinch the tube when putting the tire back on the rim which is super tight with the tires I run), then put the wheel back on, tighten the axle, put the chain on, tension it and lock the tensioners. I don't see how it could be done in less than 20 minutes, and if you pinched the tube you have to do it again. And doing all that on the side of the mountain isn't my idea of fun.

Versus none of that to top off some sealant. Just unscrew the valve, fill the syringe with fluid, inject and screw the valve back in. Takes about two minutes and I'm good for another year.
markz wrote:
Nov 04 2021 12:42am
Hate to be stranded and have to call someone to pick me up with tubeless.
Funny because I've never had to call someone to pick me up running tubeless - and not that I even could out here in the wilderness.

But I have limped home countless times from a torn valve stem. Since I know I could limp home if I ever needed to, it's really not any concern to me.

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3DTOPO   1 kW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 04 2021 2:24am

To be clear - if Chalo would have just said something like he is not a fan of tubeless, then fine. Nothing to argue about.

But he was telling me some day I will live to regret running tubeless, how the very notion of tubeless is some kind of disgraceful scam, and everyone running tubeless are “wankers”, etc. etc. Thats what I had issue with.

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Merlin   10 MW

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Merlin » Nov 04 2021 5:55am

we need a mod to clean up here............. :roll:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by SolarBeaver » Nov 04 2021 8:09am

TuBliss doesn't use any sealant, it's just regular air, isn't it a perfect solution then? And as far as I can understand you can run 0 psi on the outer "tube", and pitching an inner tube is not easy at all. Even if you do, you can probably have a regular tube with you in case the worst thing happens.
The main benefit is obv to run super low PSI though.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by DanGT86 » Nov 04 2021 9:18am

Is it clear to everyone in this discussion that TUbliss is a specific brand name product designed for motorcycle rims? I feel like there is an assumption that it is an alternate spelling of the bike industry's tube-less systems.

http://tubliss.com/tubliss/#how-it-works

TUbliss is a high pressure small inner bladder that doubles as a bead lock to hold the tire bead on the rim so the main pressure can be as low as 0 psi. Like Solarbeaver mentioned there is no liquid sealant involved.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Nov 04 2021 2:58pm

SolarBeaver wrote:
Nov 04 2021 8:09am
TuBliss doesn't use any sealant, it's just regular air, isn't it a perfect solution then? And as far as I can understand you can run 0 psi on the outer "tube", and pitching an inner tube is not easy at all. Even if you do, you can probably have a regular tube with you in case the worst thing happens.
The main benefit is obv to run super low PSI though.
You bring up a great point, there are more than one tubeless option out there, and some tubeless options are better than others.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by Rix » Nov 04 2021 4:54pm

Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 5:21pm
3DTOPO wrote:
Nov 03 2021 4:16pm
Chalo wrote:
Nov 03 2021 4:13pm
After you get your bike home and mop off all the corruption
You're delirious. That is all I have to say to you on the subject and done trying to reason with you.
Whatever you say.

Image
I don't know Chalo, looking at this picture, one could, (at least theoretically) conclude that some guys just get so excited about bike/ebikes that they make a mess on themselves. :lol:

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by SolarBeaver » Nov 04 2021 10:32pm

Hey, do any of you guys run 21/16 combo? I think with the linkage it should work just fine, and less spinning mass on the rear, also you can always switch to 19/16 with the stock front if you want more agility for some more demanding singletracks (same trick for 21/18'', but unfortunately you can't run Shinko 525 cheater and slightly more mass, but OTOH you can use TuBliss), and use the bigger wheel for more enduro-style riding.
It will probably look kinda funny though, so not sure if I I'm in :)

P.S.Having some second thoughts after ordering 21/18 :oops:
Last edited by SolarBeaver on Nov 04 2021 10:41pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by 3DTOPO » Nov 04 2021 10:35pm

Rix wrote:
Nov 04 2021 2:58pm
SolarBeaver wrote:
Nov 04 2021 8:09am
TuBliss doesn't use any sealant, it's just regular air, isn't it a perfect solution then? And as far as I can understand you can run 0 psi on the outer "tube", and pitching an inner tube is not easy at all. Even if you do, you can probably have a regular tube with you in case the worst thing happens.
The main benefit is obv to run super low PSI though.
You bring up a great point, there are more than one tubeless option out there, and some tubeless options are better than others.
I will admit, I think TuBliss looks pretty slick. I run around 15-20psi now, ~8psi would be pretty tasty.

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ggHawk » Nov 05 2021 9:49am

SolarBeaver wrote:
Nov 04 2021 10:32pm
Hey, do any of you guys run 21/16 combo? I think with the linkage it should work just fine, and less spinning mass on the rear, also you can always switch to 19/16 with the stock front if you want more agility for some more demanding singletracks (same trick for 21/18'', but unfortunately you can't run Shinko 525 cheater and slightly more mass, but OTOH you can use TuBliss), and use the bigger wheel for more enduro-style riding.
It will probably look kinda funny though, so not sure if I I'm in :)

P.S.Having some second thoughts after ordering 21/18 :oops:
You may have seen my post about my setup (10/6/20). I've been running 16/19 since a month or so before that. I still love the Shinko 525 cheater, and the geometry is fine. I also love being slightly lower, cause I have short legs.
I almost tried tubeless, but decided to stay with tubes and see how it went. I run 10 psi. In over a year, I've never had any type of flat. The beefier tires I use help a lot, and I only weigh 140, but another big factor is where/how you ride. Some places are just flat prone.
The main thing I wanted to note, in case you don't know - the 525 cheater is too wide for the standard swingarm, so it must be shaved (unless they have a new size that wasn't available a year ago... I'll find out when I buy a new one this Spring). Shaving was pretty easy, but makes a mess if you do it the way I did (with a table saw). I showed pics of it in my 10/6 post here:

https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/v ... r#p1588522

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by SolarBeaver » Nov 05 2021 9:14pm

ggHawk wrote:
Nov 05 2021 9:49am
SolarBeaver wrote:
Nov 04 2021 10:32pm
Hey, do any of you guys run 21/16 combo? I think with the linkage it should work just fine, and less spinning mass on the rear, also you can always switch to 19/16 with the stock front if you want more agility for some more demanding singletracks (same trick for 21/18'', but unfortunately you can't run Shinko 525 cheater and slightly more mass, but OTOH you can use TuBliss), and use the bigger wheel for more enduro-style riding.
It will probably look kinda funny though, so not sure if I I'm in :)

P.S.Having some second thoughts after ordering 21/18 :oops:
You may have seen my post about my setup (10/6/20). I've been running 16/19 since a month or so before that. I still love the Shinko 525 cheater, and the geometry is fine. I also love being slightly lower, cause I have short legs.
I almost tried tubeless, but decided to stay with tubes and see how it went. I run 10 psi. In over a year, I've never had any type of flat. The beefier tires I use help a lot, and I only weigh 140, but another big factor is where/how you ride. Some places are just flat prone.
The main thing I wanted to note, in case you don't know - the 525 cheater is too wide for the standard swingarm, so it must be shaved (unless they have a new size that wasn't available a year ago... I'll find out when I buy a new one this Spring). Shaving was pretty easy, but makes a mess if you do it the way I did (with a table saw). I showed pics of it in my 10/6 post here:

https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/v ... r#p1588522
thanks a lot m8!

I chose TuBliss because I could run extremely low PSI without much worry about a flat and the other reason is the weight, which I think will be lower than HD tubes + rim lock.

I don't really wanna trim anything off the tire, cuz cornering stability will become an issue. From my research I was pretty confident you can get away with some dishing, which won't affect much. Guys at Chargedcycleworks are strictly against any form of trimming, but they run 525 on the rear with their setup, so I still think it's possible. Anyway waiting for my 21/18'', so won't be able to check it myself.

Btw some sick batteries you have there, what's the average range with those?

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Re: Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

Post by ggHawk » Nov 08 2021 3:56pm

Yeah, less weight and lower pressures are good. Actually, I dropped a little weight too by shaving some of the side knobs. I really don't need them since I don't slide around corners anymore or ride in terrain where the tires sink deep into stuff.
When I received the tires, they were wider than the sales guys told me. It didn't look like dishing (or anything else but shaving) would help enough... but I didn't spend a lot of time looking at it, since shaving works well for me... although it's important to do it cleanly/symmetrically. I had it rebalanced after doing it, but it didn't need adjustment, showing I did it right.

The extra pack is very nice for longer rides. It adds about 65% range (to the 72V Litespeed pack).
Stock 60V pack = 1.9 kWh
Litespeed 72V pack = 2.15 kWh (also more current/power capability)
My extra 72V Pack = 1.4 kWh (same current/power capability as Litespeed)

The actual range, of course, varies dramatically with usage/conditions/terrain.

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