SURRON LB: RESEARCH & DEVELOPEMENT

Jonathan1981

100 W
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
180
THE PURPOSE OF THIS AREA IS TO PROVIDE A PLATFORM FOR FURTHER DEVELOPMENT OF THE SURRON LIGHT BEE. YOU'RE ENCOURAGED TO POST IDEA'S, CONCEPTS AND TECHNICAL MATERIAL HERE TO HELP DEVELOP YOUR IDEA, SHARE WITH THE COMMUNITY AND GAIN VALUABLE FEEDBACK . THIS MAY INCLUDE THINGS SUCH AS HAND DRAWN SKETCHES, CAD MODELS/RENDERINGS, MANUFACTURED PROTOTYPES ETC.

ALTHOUGH SOME TANGENTS ARE INEVITABLE, THIS AREA SHOULD REMAIN FOCUSED ON R&D AND DISCUSSIONS OF THAT NATURE RELATING TO THE CONCEPTS, IDEA'S BROUGHT UP IN THIS THREAD.

- NO OVERT MARKETING OF PRODUCTS... if you're working on a concept, work through it on this thread, until you feel you are ready to offer a final product and put a simple link to your website if you do eventually create a sell-able item. ie, this is not a store, just don't keep plugging your product over and over again. Go to the vendor BUY/SELL area instead.

- NO OVERT BASHING OF SOMEONE ELSES PRODUCT OR IDEA

- KEEP THINGS FOCUSSED ON R&D AND RELATED TO CONTENT IN THIS THREAD AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE

-TRY NOT TO COPY SOMEONE ELSE, WE ALL COME UP WITH SIMILAR IDEA'S AT SOME POINT SO IF YOU SEE SOMEONE IS WORKING ON AN IDEA THAT YOU HAD, EITHER PUT YOUR OWN SPIN ON IT AS BEST YOU CAN, OR ASK TO JOIN THEIR TEAM. IF CONFLICTS ARISE, WORK IT OUT THROUGH THE PM SYSTEM.

- THE ULTIMATE GOAL HERE IS TO CROUD SOURCE IDEAS, TROUBLESHOOT PROBLEMS AND ENGINEER SOLUTIONS WHICH WILL EVENTUALLY LEAD TO TANGIBLE PRODUCTS FOR SURRON LIGHT BEE, THAT THE COMMUNITY CAN BUY, TRADE, SHARE ETC. HAVING OPTIONS ROCKS.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



Alright, so I'll start this off by attaching some renders of the FIRST modeled component I made of the Surron... the foot peg bracket plates...I did them because I thought they'd be easy, little did I know how much drafting and awkward cavities they had...total PIA to model. Anyway.... I'm thinking this would be a nice simple candidate for an upgraded CNC version....what does everyone think? If I designed a CNC plate, is this something you think would be a worthwile endeavour? I'm thinking thicker, stronger BUT lighter, and well....anodized ofcourse, your choice of color..... any other feature we could add to this?

Keep in mind, when enough people agree on a design and want it, the per unit price just goes down :)
 
Also interested in getting some feedback on this sprocket design.... this is a 55T design but can be made to any size.. The core body is thicker than stock, .385" but cored out on the back so still fairly lightweight... 1lb. Clean and simple hole pattern, screen printed graphics on the front, plain black screen print on the back. CNC 6061 billet. Thinking now 7000 series might be better tho...
 

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Great thread, I want to share some Sur-Ron LB upgrades from china, first one(edit: this is not my work, I only do the translation, original poster's name is 时平, he is a photographer):
006OymmLgy1fqr95bjewxj30u0140n28.jpg

1045bc014a90f603a859291d3512b31bb251edc3.jpg

see original post: https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5576806979?see_lz=1&pn=1
and this: https://weibo.com/ttarticle/p/show?id=2309404233446716239057



05fafddcd100baa1300d6f954b10b912c9fc2ec6.jpg

Handlebar -> KORE mpeg



51d44c540923dd54c05df047dd09b3de9c82483e.jpg

006OymmLgy1fqr9p6rs3vj30o00g1tvf.jpg

Pedal -> motorcycle size



470354da81cb39dbc98ce347dc160924aa18309e.jpg

Fork -> fox 40



56786981800a19d80b37fa1d3ffa828ba61e463d.jpg

Parts custom painting, some parts he can handle by himself, other parts need anodize, lots of vendor offer that service on Taobao(for example: http://imgsrc.baidu.com/forum/pic/item/e3f60f55b319ebc49a0b66e98e26cffc1f171691.jpg)
23c64f90f603738da1176d30bf1bb051f919ec8e.jpg

57d6778b4710b912178ffcedcffdfc039345229a.jpg

cf3cb7fb43166d222ae109884a2309f79152d25b.jpg

18e1cafc1e178a82bc6c19bffa03738da877e8a0.jpg

b41aa6cc7cd98d104664b04f2d3fb80e7aec9067.jpg

963334adcbef7609ea9a858322dda3cc7dd99e64.jpg




bbf8bd0e7bec54e77beea660b5389b504ec26a91.jpg

hub -> koozer mountain bike hub



9dcf2d381f30e924d862b82440086e061c95f72c.jpg

c984fef2b2119313196fd8a569380cd791238d3a.jpg

break -> HOPE V4(Dissolving surface's black painting with caustic soda)



a040ec50352ac65cb04f450ff7f2b21192138a4f.jpg

custom Titanium spring from Taobao(he used this one: https://shop117231824.taobao.com/index.htm )



ae5c063b5bb5c9ea5af5688fd939b6003bf3b39b.jpg

dbf3920a304e251f6c33c5a9ab86c9177d3e53e6.jpg

custom CNC tooth, again, Taobao



b4b48ed4b31c8701f2f5919a2b7f9e2f0608ff56.jpg

Titanium screw, apparently everything must go Ti



acbddfb44aed2e7310c478408b01a18b86d6faf1.jpg

adding a kickstand block, he didn't say where he got it, but I'm guessing Taobao



006OymmLgy1fqr9j7mcocj30o00finl6.jpg

17d704e93901213febd5fb8658e736d12d2e95c9.jpg

oh also he changed the monitor to the battery cover


cf3cb7fb43166d22617340c54a2309f79152d2a6.jpg

d057f303738da977e4c63371bc51f8198418e3c3.jpg

1045bc014a90f603a859291d3512b31bb251edc3.jpg

390b79d98d1001e968caa155b40e7bec55e79739.jpg

3d41cc177f3e67095ae6f0a537c79f3dfadc55c9.jpg

51d44c540923dd54214a1332dd09b3de9d8248f2.jpg

d505d0628535e5ddb9ca10857ac6a7efcc1b62c9.jpg

b41aa6cc7cd98d105132b96b2d3fb80e79ec90c9.jpg

006OymmLgy1fqr9hyzhx8j30m10f3452.jpg



After all those work, the bike is now 5085g lighter

With bicycle hub, it seems the range increased, downhill is much smoother, but if the free-wheel got anything to do with the motor's cooling, he didn't mention
 
CW, what a sick bike that is! Great work!

Re foot peg bracket plates, those parts are really cheap and are sourced from the vendor. Not sure if you want them stronger because this will put more stress on the base frame. Probably better if the brackets brakes of during an impact and not bringing the frame with it.
 
Great idea this thread, subscribed.
Cloudwalker, that is a sweet upgraded one. Nice!
 
Here is the wiring diagram from the manual. It is not fully detailed or accurate, but gives an overall layout.
As far as I can tell, the 12V dc-dc converter is inside the controller.

The small plug on the battery feeds 12v to the backlight on the battery fuel gauge and the bike can run without it being plugged in. I have yet to figure out what the other wires do.

 
fechter said:
The small plug on the battery feeds 12v to the backlight on the battery fuel gauge and the bike can run without it being plugged in. I have yet to figure out what the other wires do.

I think there is a data link on that connector. It should convey information about the battery state. I'm also curious about the third pin on the charge port. I think it has the battery temperature. Not sure if it is just a thermocouple or if it is a data bus with a digital readout of temperature.

Has anyone charged the battery with an aftermarket charger yet? I'm planning to make an adapter for my Cycle satiator soon. I'd like to charge to 90% to preserve battery life.
 
cloudwalker said:
Great thread, I want to share some Sur-Ron LB upgrades from china, first one:
1045bc014a90f603a859291d3512b31bb251edc3.jpg

see: https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5576806979?see_lz=1&pn=1

05fafddcd100baa1300d6f954b10b912c9fc2ec6.jpg

Handlebar -> KORE mpeg

51d44c540923dd54c05df047dd09b3de9c82483e.jpg

Pedal -> motorcycle size

470354da81cb39dbc98ce347dc160924aa18309e.jpg

Fork -> fox 40

56786981800a19d80b37fa1d3ffa828ba61e463d.jpg

Parts custom painting
57d6778b4710b912178ffcedcffdfc039345229a.jpg

cf3cb7fb43166d222ae109884a2309f79152d25b.jpg

18e1cafc1e178a82bc6c19bffa03738da877e8a0.jpg

b41aa6cc7cd98d104664b04f2d3fb80e7aec9067.jpg


bbf8bd0e7bec54e77beea660b5389b504ec26a91.jpg

mountain bike hub

ae5c063b5bb5c9ea5af5688fd939b6003bf3b39b.jpg

dbf3920a304e251f6c33c5a9ab86c9177d3e53e6.jpg

custom CNC tooth

a040ec50352ac65cb04f450ff7f2b21192138a4f.jpg

custom titanium spring

cf3cb7fb43166d22617340c54a2309f79152d2a6.jpg

1045bc014a90f603a859291d3512b31bb251edc3.jpg

390b79d98d1001e968caa155b40e7bec55e79739.jpg

Hey cloudwalker, you can't just post sweet images like that without an explaination! :lol:

Super nice stuff....

Is that free wheel on the rear hub? that is VERY cool... I was thinking why the system wasn't setup with a free-wheel already. I'm wondering, is the motor cooled by chance by a squirrel cage fan or something that's benefited from NOT having a free-wheel and being forced to spin when not under load?

Also, is that a TI spring? can you elaborate more on this?
 
Allex said:
CW, what a sick bike that is! Great work!

Re foot peg bracket plates, those parts are really cheap and are sourced from the vendor. Not sure if you want them stronger because this will put more stress on the base frame. Probably better if the brackets brakes of during an impact and not bringing the frame with it.

I think the idea with aftermarket parts is just to have cool custom bling to add to the bike regardless of cost...

Interesting point about wanting those brackets to be weaker than the frame...makes me re-think this a bit.
I think we can agree that any sort of breakage of that part is not desired, you'd break your foot if they broke while landing a jump...so strength in vertical direction needs to stay... but if you spilled the bike, and these were built super tough, and it fell on it's side and it hit the peg.. then that could lead to some bending/breaking of the main frame for sure....

So, the solution, design in a break point for lateral forces :) Super strong in vertical direction, snapable (with extreme load, just under the stress point of the main frame component) in the lateral direction..

thoughts?
 
Jonathan1981 said:
Hey cloudwalker, you can't just post sweet images like that without an explaination! :lol:

I edited my post, hope it answers some of your questions
 
CW, those mods of awesome. Congrats! keep it up!

If you're not using regen, I think a free-wheel is a no brainer, ofcourse you'll get better range. I only wonder if the motor get's forced cooling due to being slaved to the wheel/chain during no throttle.....anyone know this or make some assumptions.... if there is a squirrel cage fan in there than it would be beneficial to have it slaved vs. freewheeled....we need to look into this...

I notice the throttle looks modified also, the cable runs down and out of way of the brake...That's one thing I'm noticing, my wrist is too cocked back while I'm standing up applying full throttle, but I can't rotate the assembly forward because the brake is in the way and throttle cable hits it... :?

@CW, are those foot pegs just ebay pit bike pegs?
 
fechter said:
Here is the wiring diagram from the manual. It is not fully detailed or accurate, but gives an overall layout.
As far as I can tell, the 12V dc-dc converter is inside the controller.

The small plug on the battery feeds 12v to the backlight on the battery fuel gauge and the bike can run without it being plugged in. I have yet to figure out what the other wires do.

Light Bee Wiring Diagram2.jpg

the converter is down in front of the motor behind the plastic guard between it and the controller. it can handle up to 18s so far tested.
 
can we change the bearing of this so-called [coaxial transmission system] into a real transmission? like a three speed rear hub transmission
eng170618-17.jpg


add this
sram_urban_igh_automatix_coaster-brake_lr_1.jpg

to the bearing into this:
4c595049gy1fv565wl364j21fm0yk4qp.jpg


4c595049gy1fv56z3a94dj219i13iqc9.jpg


sorry for my poor modeling, hope you guys understand my idea here. If we can change the bearing into a 3 stage transmission(0.75-1-1.25), then there's no need for custom tooth, 1 stage for more torque situation like climbing, 2 stage just stock normal, 3 stage for road racing, everyone's happy. Is it possible?
 
That's the most sexy Sur Ron I've seen!

I wonder if he knows the motor has potential for drastically more power. :)
 
cloudwalker said:
can we change the bearing of this so-called [coaxial transmission system] into a real transmission? like a three speed rear hub transmission
eng170618-17.jpg


add this
sram_urban_igh_automatix_coaster-brake_lr_1.jpg

to the bearing into this:
4c595049gy1fv565wl364j21fm0yk4qp.jpg


4c595049gy1fv56z3a94dj219i13iqc9.jpg


sorry for my poor modeling, hope you guys understand my idea here. If we can change the bearing into a 3 stage transmission(0.75-1-1.25), then there's no need for custom tooth, 1 stage for more torque situation like climbing, 2 stage just stock normal, 3 stage for road racing, everyone's happy. Is it possible?

oh my, think you're onto something man, thing is, with current frame, so little room to work with, don't think there would be enough room...the one cool thing with the current setup though is it's pretty bullet proof, having a mechanical gearbox in there does add to complexity, but it's an intriguing idea for sure
 
You can achieve a point with stock motor and gearing (and swapped controller)at which as a 200lbs rider, it violently wheelies, and still achieves more top-end than feels like a good idea on the bikes nimble geometry.

Phase current is how you win at EV's, anything to get more. The motor runs fine with the stock 150amps phase (or whatever it is), but feeding it 700amps releases a monster.
 
I am planning to develop a wider swing arm. Goal is to accommodate up to 5" fatty tires and 6" snow track.

Does anyone have the dimensions or models for the Swing arm? Just thought I would ask first.

Also, are there any competent modelers on here that might help with a swing arm design for a reasonable fee? I can model stuff but it's not exactly my forte. It could be - but just haven't had the time to invest in it. Someone with Solidworks would be ideal. If you are interested, please feel free to PM me.
 
3DTOPO said:
I am planning to develop a wider swing arm. Goal is to accommodate up to 5" fatty tires and 6" snow track.

Does anyone have the dimensions or models for the Swing arm? Just thought I would ask first.

Also, are there any competent modelers on here that might help with a swing arm design for a reasonable fee? I can model stuff but it's not exactly my forte. It could be - but just haven't had the time to invest in it. Someone with Solidworks would be ideal. If you are interested, please feel free to PM me.

I'm modeling the whole bike..... if you're wondering lol
Problem is, just don't know when it will be done....the plan was to do it over the winter so it doesn't take away from ride time, if you want to wait until then..
 
Jonathan1981 said:
3DTOPO said:
I am planning to develop a wider swing arm. Goal is to accommodate up to 5" fatty tires and 6" snow track.

Does anyone have the dimensions or models for the Swing arm? Just thought I would ask first.

Also, are there any competent modelers on here that might help with a swing arm design for a reasonable fee? I can model stuff but it's not exactly my forte. It could be - but just haven't had the time to invest in it. Someone with Solidworks would be ideal. If you are interested, please feel free to PM me.

I'm modeling the whole bike..... if you're wondering lol
Problem is, just don't know when it will be done....the plan was to do it over the winter so it doesn't take away from ride time, if you want to wait until then..

Yeah, getting something built before winter equals winter ride time, so a day here and there is a good investment for many days in return come winter.

Would modeling the swing arm be a good place to start? Willing to pay something for even a model of the stock one.

I can cast the whole thing, but cast aluminum isn't as fracture resistant as the forged frame - so it would need to be a bit beefed up. I have a carbon-fiber tube and aluminum hybrid in mind. That's ultimately what I would like to have modeled and of course would pay for it.
 
3DTOPO said:
Jonathan1981 said:
3DTOPO said:
I am planning to develop a wider swing arm. Goal is to accommodate up to 5" fatty tires and 6" snow track.

Does anyone have the dimensions or models for the Swing arm? Just thought I would ask first.

Also, are there any competent modelers on here that might help with a swing arm design for a reasonable fee? I can model stuff but it's not exactly my forte. It could be - but just haven't had the time to invest in it. Someone with Solidworks would be ideal. If you are interested, please feel free to PM me.

I'm modeling the whole bike..... if you're wondering lol
Problem is, just don't know when it will be done....the plan was to do it over the winter so it doesn't take away from ride time, if you want to wait until then..

Yeah, getting something built before winter equals winter ride time, so a day here and there is a good investment for many days in return come winter.

Would modeling the swing arm be a good place to start? Willing to pay something for even a model of the stock one.

I can cast the whole thing, but cast aluminum isn't as fracture resistant as the forged frame - so it would need to be a bit beefed up. I have a carbon-fiber tube and aluminum hybrid in mind. That's ultimately what I would like to have modeled and of course would pay for it.


A swing arm can be built many different ways, that's not a problem....I wouldn't suggest backyard sand casting no. lol. Def would be fracture prone. Surron used die casting to best of my knowledge, so it's done in a pressurized mold.

Uh well, I think modeling the initial swing arm would be ideal, but not sure I want to pull mine off yet... if you want to do something custom, you just need a few measurements from the current frame and swing arm and then you can design anything you want. If you can get me the following measurements, and possibly some rough sketches of what you want to do, I can POSSIBLY look into modeling it, but no guarantee's with my current schedule. I think tubing, sheet metal and CNC parts would be the cheapest materials to start with...

need to know:

- swing arm axle diam
- swing arm axle spacing to the swing arm axle hub from either side of frame, if there are any spacers etc.
- obviously main frame width at swing arm axle..
- Rear swing-arm wheel spacing
- shock linkage mount, relative to swing arm pivot, this could get weird given the not so straight lines of the swing arm...I'd measure a line from swing arm pivot to rear axle, then from that line, measure perpendicular up to that mount hole....to be as accurate as possible, sometimes you have to get creative, use straight edges, tape stuff down, use card board etc.
 
Jonathan1981 said:
3DTOPO said:
Jonathan1981 said:
3DTOPO said:
I am planning to develop a wider swing arm. Goal is to accommodate up to 5" fatty tires and 6" snow track.

Does anyone have the dimensions or models for the Swing arm? Just thought I would ask first.

Also, are there any competent modelers on here that might help with a swing arm design for a reasonable fee? I can model stuff but it's not exactly my forte. It could be - but just haven't had the time to invest in it. Someone with Solidworks would be ideal. If you are interested, please feel free to PM me.

I'm modeling the whole bike..... if you're wondering lol
Problem is, just don't know when it will be done....the plan was to do it over the winter so it doesn't take away from ride time, if you want to wait until then..

Yeah, getting something built before winter equals winter ride time, so a day here and there is a good investment for many days in return come winter.

Would modeling the swing arm be a good place to start? Willing to pay something for even a model of the stock one.

I can cast the whole thing, but cast aluminum isn't as fracture resistant as the forged frame - so it would need to be a bit beefed up. I have a carbon-fiber tube and aluminum hybrid in mind. That's ultimately what I would like to have modeled and of course would pay for it.


A swing arm can be built many different ways, that's not a problem....I wouldn't suggest backyard sand casting no. lol. Def would be fracture prone. Surron used die casting to best of my knowledge, so it's done in a pressurized mold.

Thats pretty much what I said, but the Sur-Ron frame is not die-cast. It is forged under 6,000 tons of pressure.

So, even a CNC cut one would need to be more stout than a forged one. That said it is feasible to to investment cast one that would be more than stout enough, but I would it have to be significantly heavier than the stock one for reasons mentioned . Really not ideal - and I want to make it lighter than the stock one utilizing carbon fiber structure. ;)

Jonathan1981 said:
Uh well, I think modeling the initial swing arm would be ideal, but not sure I want to pull mine off yet... if you want to do something custom, you just need a few measurements from the current frame and swing arm and then you can design anything you want. If you can get me the following measurements, and possibly some rough sketches of what you want to do, I can POSSIBLY look into modeling it, but no guarantee's with my current schedule. I think tubing, sheet metal and CNC parts would be the cheapest materials to start with...

Understood. What do you use for modeling?

Jonathan1981 said:
need to know:

- swing arm axle diam
- swing arm axle spacing to the swing arm axle hub from either side of frame, if there are any spacers etc.
- obviously main frame width at swing arm axle..
- Rear swing-arm wheel spacing
- shock linkage mount, relative to swing arm pivot, this could get weird given the not so straight lines of the swing arm...I'd measure a line from swing arm pivot to rear axle, then from that line, measure perpendicular up to that mount hole....to be as accurate as possible, sometimes you have to get creative, use straight edges, tape stuff down, use card board etc.

Probably the best way I could get measurements off it is by putting it in my CNC machine and get readings from the different points with a laser pointer. My CNC machine's resolution is ~0.0005".

But I don't want to take my swing arm off either! Ugh - guess it's looking like I'll have to - if I am to make one before winter.
 
3DTOPO said:
Jonathan1981 said:
3DTOPO said:
Jonathan1981 said:
I'm modeling the whole bike..... if you're wondering lol
Problem is, just don't know when it will be done....the plan was to do it over the winter so it doesn't take away from ride time, if you want to wait until then..

Yeah, getting something built before winter equals winter ride time, so a day here and there is a good investment for many days in return come winter.

Would modeling the swing arm be a good place to start? Willing to pay something for even a model of the stock one.

I can cast the whole thing, but cast aluminum isn't as fracture resistant as the forged frame - so it would need to be a bit beefed up. I have a carbon-fiber tube and aluminum hybrid in mind. That's ultimately what I would like to have modeled and of course would pay for it.


A swing arm can be built many different ways, that's not a problem....I wouldn't suggest backyard sand casting no. lol. Def would be fracture prone. Surron used die casting to best of my knowledge, so it's done in a pressurized mold.

Thats pretty much what I said, but the Sur-Ron frame is not die-cast. It is forged under 6,000 tons of pressure.

So, even a CNC cut one would need to be more stout than a forged one. That said it is feasible to to investment cast one that would be more than stout enough, but I would it have to be significantly heavier than the stock one for reasons mentioned . Really not ideal - and I want to make it lighter than the stock one utilizing carbon fiber structure. ;)

Jonathan1981 said:
Uh well, I think modeling the initial swing arm would be ideal, but not sure I want to pull mine off yet... if you want to do something custom, you just need a few measurements from the current frame and swing arm and then you can design anything you want. If you can get me the following measurements, and possibly some rough sketches of what you want to do, I can POSSIBLY look into modeling it, but no guarantee's with my current schedule. I think tubing, sheet metal and CNC parts would be the cheapest materials to start with...

Understood. What do you use for modeling?

Jonathan1981 said:
need to know:

- swing arm axle diam
- swing arm axle spacing to the swing arm axle hub from either side of frame, if there are any spacers etc.
- obviously main frame width at swing arm axle..
- Rear swing-arm wheel spacing
- shock linkage mount, relative to swing arm pivot, this could get weird given the not so straight lines of the swing arm...I'd measure a line from swing arm pivot to rear axle, then from that line, measure perpendicular up to that mount hole....to be as accurate as possible, sometimes you have to get creative, use straight edges, tape stuff down, use card board etc.

Probably the best way I could get measurements off it is by putting it in my CNC machine and get readings from the different points with a laser pointer. My CNC machine's resolution is ~0.0005".

But I don't want to take my swing arm off either! Ugh - guess it's looking like I'll have to - if I am to make one before winter.

if it's forged than that's even better than die cast... why not just use simple tube and CNC? always start easy and cheap for proto's. See what you can do for those measurement and keep us posted.
 
Jonathan1981 said:
if it's forged than that's even better than die cast...

Yes, of course it is. That is why I offered the correction. ;)

Jonathan1981 said:
why not just use simple tube and CNC? always start easy and cheap for proto's. See what you can do for those measurement and keep us posted.

Yeah, that's pretty much the plan! I wasn't suggesting that I was going to make it any other way.
 
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