Cemoto OS110C E-scooter starts bogging down after 15kms

HansH3Works

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I have a brand new Cemoto e-scooter OS-110C (3KW, 48V, with new 4x 12V 20Ah Lead battery).

The scooter starts bogging down on full throttle after having driven 10-15 km. The power gauge drops down completely on full throttle so it looks like the battery voltage drops below the controller cut-off voltage (11 Volt).

Can somebody please give me some advise on how to do something about this problem? I'm done driving a stuttering camel after a few kilometers drive with fully charged batteries :roll:
 
My guess? The lead batteries are beat down. If you run those things hard, they die very young. If you discharge them deeply, they die very young. If you fail to recharge them immediately... well, you probably get the idea.

Due to Peukert effect, the capacity of your batteries is nowhere near its nominal rating, when you demand lots of current at one time.
 
10-15 km is a bit on the low side of the range you could get with a 3000W setup, but it's not totally far off if you ride at full throttle. A new scooter should perform better in theory, but it will depend also on things such as your weight, if there is a lot of hills, if your tires are properly inflated, if your brakes are correclty set up or if you don't have a toasted bearing. So check that first.

Basically your battery can only store 960Wh in theory (marketed capacity: 48V @20Ah: 48 x 20 =960). You can probably use 80% of that, maybe less because the voltage can't just drop to zero so you end up with unusable capacity, so that's about 770Wh of usable power. If you factor in the Peukert effect (basically the Peukert effect states that riding a battery at a high discharge rate ends up in even more unusable capacity), i'ts likely that you have even less than 770Wh. Maybe around 650Wh (guesstimation, could be more, could be less, it depends on a lot of factors I cannot know).

So, let's say you ride at full power (3000W or so), 650/3000 = 0.21 hours, so that's about 12 minutes. This is just a ballpark approximation, in reality it will be more, you'll have to stop at red lights, you probably can't ride at full blast all the time and your powertrain won't draw 3000W all the time. Also I don't know if the 3000W you refer too are continuous or peak, but let's just assume they are continuous.

So let's say that your top speed is 50km/h at 3000W constant (should be around that for a 48V setup), then in 12 minutes at that pace you'll only be able to do 10 km, which is, more or less, what you experienced.

It is really a ballpark estimation, to give you a general idea of how it works, in reality it is quite a bit more complex than that, but you can't expect to do something like 50km at full blast. Not with this battery anyways.
If you want more range, then you'll either have to take it easy on the throttle, lose weight (easier said than done, I know ;) ) or change your battery for a better one, which is probably the best solution since your batteries won't last that long anyways...

The reason why your battery won't last long is the same reason you get capacity loss with the Peukert effect: basically your battery is rated at 20Ah, which means its optimal discharge rate is 20Amps in one hour. But you're discharging it in 12 minutes in this example. If you were dischaging it in one hour, it would mean that your discharge rate is one Coulomb (or 1C). Since you're discharging it in 12 minutes, it means that you're discharging it 5 times faster, so 5C. That's five times the recommendation for this battery, and lead acid batteries don't really like to go over 3C continuously, so basically the battery heats, which progressively rises its internal resistance, eventually lowering its capacity, ending in premature death.
 
Lead acid batteries are usually rated for their capacity at C/20 discharge-- 20 hours to empty. That means the nominal power rating of the OP's scooter is roughly 100 times greater than the battery's nominal capacity discharge rate. Those batteries are not even approximately 20Ah batteries at 100x higher discharge rate.
 
Chalo said:
Lead acid batteries are usually rated for their capacity at C/20 discharge-- 20 hours to empty. That means the nominal power rating of the OP's scooter is roughly 100 times greater than the battery's nominal capacity discharge rate. Those batteries are not even approximately 20Ah batteries at 100x higher discharge rate.

Didn't know that, thanks.
I always assumed all batteries capacity were rated at 1C, doesn't really make sense to me that it could be otherwise...
So basically that's another "marketing scam" to add together with the "peak" ratings. The lacks of standards really makes things difficult...

Anyways,
Instead of all that math, an easy rule of thumb I use also in order to quickly guess autonomy and speed for a scooter or motorbike is:
-1V = 1km/h
-1A = 1km of range

Super easy to remember plus this usually is pretty close if the machine is driven in "sporty conditions"

For instance, a scooter with a 72V 30Ah battery will have a top speed around 70-80km/h and an autonomy of around 30-35km. A motorbike with a 84V 20Ah battery will reach a top speed around 80-90km/h for around 20 kilometers, and so on.

This of course isn't exact science, lots of things will make this vary (battery chemistry, motor KV, outside temperature, riding style, flux weakening, etc), so you have to take that into account in your reflexion, but I found it to work pretty well when you try to quickly guesstimate a setup, it's usually more or less around that.
Don't know how well this rule of thumb applies to something lighter with a huge wheel diameter like an ebike since I never tried, but I know from experience that it works well at least with scooters and motorcycles.
 
Dui said:
Chalo said:
Lead acid batteries are usually rated for their capacity at C/20 discharge-- 20 hours to empty.

Didn't know that, thanks.
I always assumed all batteries capacity were rated at 1C, doesn't really make sense to me that it could be otherwise...
So basically that's another "marketing scam" to add together with the "peak" ratings.

Lead acid batteries' capacity ratings at low discharge rates make sense for many of the applications where lead acid batteries still make some sense-- i.e., stationary power for off-grid households and power backup for high reliability applications. In most cases, those discharges are slow relative to the battery bank's capacity.

When you have to move the battery around, they don't really make sense anymore (in the same way that reciprocating steam engine propulsion doesn't make sense anymore). You wind up needing more motor, and more energy, and therefore more battery, just to propel the battery.
 
Chalo said:
Lead acid batteries' capacity ratings at low discharge rates make sense for many of the applications where lead acid batteries still make some sense-- i.e., stationary power for off-grid households and power backup for high reliability applications. In most cases, those discharges are slow relative to the battery bank's capacity.

When you have to move the battery around, they don't really make sense anymore (in the same way that reciprocating steam engine propulsion doesn't make sense anymore). You wind up needing more motor, and more energy, and therefore more battery, just to propel the battery.

Yes, I do get the point. I just mean that since it is not standardized you end up comparing apples and oranges every time between different batteries chemistries, which is annoying. In the end for a given marketed capacity you will have a totally different actual real life capacity at a given C rating, depending if your battery is lead acid, li-ion or whatever.
That makes fair comparison almost impossible and diminishes the accuracy of the basic assumptions we make while selecting a battery capacity. Would be much easier if there were an actual common standard for all.

Same problem as for peak ratings, there is no standard about what a peak duration really is.
 
Here is one of Chalo's buddies
Dui, ni shuo de dui

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=67340&p=1455073#p1455073
Boo. If the motorized bicycle in this case was like the ones I see around here, it was woefully underbraked and piloted by a rotten drunk.


No offence to Dui, just making light banter for a giggle.
 
markz said:
Here is one of Chalo's buddies
Dui, ni shuo de dui

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=67340&p=1455073#p1455073
Boo. If the motorized bicycle in this case was like the ones I see around here, it was woefully underbraked and piloted by a rotten drunk.


No offence to Dui, just making light banter for a giggle.

Sorry, I did not understand what reference/point/joke you tried to make, probably 'cause I'm not a native English speaker.
Could you explain?

Thx :)
 
DUI in North America means (D)riving (U)nder the (I)nfluence which means driving drunk a big no no in our society because it causes so much carnage on the roads. Chalo has made a few comments, rightfully so, ragging on them whom drive hammered.



Dui said:
Sorry, I did not understand what reference/point/joke you tried to make, probably 'cause I'm not a native English speaker.
Could you explain?

Thx :)
 
The rating is standardardized, and that's how lead battery capacities are measured. The big difference is caused by Peukert's Law, which has a great effect on lead batteries. It states that the higher the discharge rate, the less capacity the battery has to deliver. This effect is very small with lithium batteries.

My guess is that the OP bought one or more bad batteries in the new set, or damaged them quickly by too deeply discharging them. OTOH 15km out of 20ah lead seems about right, since 20ah of lead is really only about 10ah useful after Peukert's Effect and avoiding deep discharge for maximum life. Get some proper lithium batts and you'll never use lead again.
 
markz said:
DUI in North America means (D)riving (U)nder the (I)nfluence which means driving drunk a big no no in our society because it causes so much carnage on the roads. Chalo has made a few comments, rightfully so, ragging on them whom drive hammered.

Ahhhhh ok, got it :lol:
Don't worry I'm not drunk right now.
It's 10 am here, I only had six beers so far, I'm not a savage.

"Dui" just means "yes" in chinese :wink:
 
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