Yamaha V Star 1100 Conversion

Chaplain

1 mW
Joined
Apr 16, 2019
Messages
16
Hello all,

I've been a biker since I could ride. Bicycles just don't really do it for me but I've seen some very sweet builds here.
I own a Yamaha V Star 1100 that died after I put 75k miles on her. I want to change it over to electric. I'm planning on using a Golden Motor 5kw as a mid-drive. I'm not really sure how to connect it to the existing transmission and what that will require. I want to be able to get some serious distance from it, around 200 miles riding 2 up.

This is my first build like this so any help would be appreciated.
 
5kW is moped power but then on a 2 to 3 times as heavy motorbike? How slow do you plan to go? The battery pack needed to go 200 miles with the motorcycle and two people (700+ pounds?) will be very large and heavy.
 
Chaplain said:
Hello all,

I've been a biker since I could ride. Bicycles just don't really do it for me but I've seen some very sweet builds here.
I own a Yamaha V Star 1100 that died after I put 75k miles on her. I want to change it over to electric. I'm planning on using a Golden Motor 5kw as a mid-drive. I'm not really sure how to connect it to the existing transmission and what that will require. I want to be able to get some serious distance from it, around 200 miles riding 2 up.

This is my first build like this so any help would be appreciated.

If you want to reach 200 miles you can forget using a mid drive. You'll need all the space you can get in the chassis in order to fit a gigantic battery. Not even sure that kind of distance is actually reachable unless you find some clever way to put batteries in unusual places.
 
I am considering adding a very small generator to add some charge to the batteries as I ride.
It doesn't put out a great deal of juice, but it should help extend the range some. The generator's output is about 12v at 1 amp.

I will be removing most of the weight when I take the gas engine out along with everything that connects to it except the trans.
That will remove about 400 pounds of weight. I can go with a bigger motor, as I haven't purchased that yet.

I am also thinking of placing the mid-drive on the swingarm to open up more room for batteries. The gas tank will also be tasked to carry batteries.

I hate to have the frame and everything already and not use it, but if I simply can not get this to work, then I'll be looking to custom build a hardtail frame for 2up. I'm no welder and I have no idea what it would cost to build what I need in a frame.
 
Chaplain said:
I am considering adding a very small generator to add some charge to the batteries as I ride.
It doesn't put out a great deal of juice, but it should help extend the range some. The generator's output is about 12v at 1 amp.

That's 12W, which is a ridiculously small amount of power, not including the losses you will have to step up the voltage to whatever battery pack voltage you will use. That's not even enough power to light your front bulb...
Just forget this idea completely, it makes no sense.

For the motor, I suggest you to use a hub motor, that's what seems to be the most appropriate solution in your case. They are pretty powerful, they take virtually no space, they are easy to fit and relatively affordable.
 
There are a number of MC project threads here, but most of them are for lighter bikes, so a number of things will be different for yours.

If you need high acceleration rates (torque) *and* high speeds, without using high power (watts) then the middrive thru your transmission is probably a good option, especially for that big a bike with two people on it.

A hubmotor would probably need quite a bit more power to have both quick takeoffs and high speeds, and would make your battery requirements (capacity (Ah), capability (C-rate, A) and probably voltage (V)) higher as well as needing a larger controller for the higher power.


To get some idea of the power requirements for various speeds (and what you'd need for various acceleration rates under various loads and conditions), you can look around at the various power - at - speed calculators out there, some of which should be listed in one of the Sticky Index threads by Spinningmagnets. You can also look at the http://ebikes.ca/simulator , which covers a number of hubmotors or can be setup with custom parameters, and can be used to simulate a middrive if you figure out the gearing between road and motor for the various gears your transmission has.


I suspect that for the range you are after, you're going to need side panniers full of battery as well as the former engine volume and fuel tank.

A 12v 1A generator would be completely useless as a range extender. That's only 12 watts. Your battery charger, even a slow one, would waste more power than that as heat in inefficiencies. It's also the wrong voltage; you'd need something that either outputs the correct DC voltage to charge your traction pack, or the AC voltage necessary to run your regular plug-in-the-wall charger.

A useful range extender generator would need to have a trailer to ride on, as it would be larger than will fit on the bike itself with two people already on the bike. You could make a BOB (single wheel) trailer for it that would attach to mounting points either side of the rear wheel.

Depending on the size of pack and your continuous power usage, the generator would probably have to be at least 1-2kW output to give you significant range extension. For instance, if you have a pack that gives you 100 miles range, and you require 200 miles range, the generator has to be able to output at least enough power to keep the pack from running down in 100 miles, and instead last 200. Exactly how much power that is depends on your usage.

It would be better for it to be able to output more than the amount of power the pack does (because of inefficiencies in charging electronics), if you want to be able to keep the pack charged (essentially infinite range).


Regarding chargers, I would recommend the Meanwell HLG-xxxH-xxA LED PSUs. You can series and parallel them as needed to get the total voltage and current you need, and adjust teh voltage and current to match your battery. The four I have here came to me used, and originally were used as a 2800watt ((~120v @ 24A) charger for a 28s battery on a motorcycle. They're weather and vibration resistant (I never say "proof", but these are as close as that gets), and can be bolted directly to the bike. I'm presently using just one on my SB Cruiser trike, bolted to the bottom.
 
It would be very interesting to build a large hybrid bike like that. You could probably fit a 1kw generator (please use 4-stroke only! Preferably California spec) on the bike with a very small pack, or put a larger pack in hard panniers as suggested, but if you really need a bike that will haul 2 people fast, then the trailer would probably be best. First you have to decide what kind of hybrid you want: a Prius type that uses a smaller pack with a big generator, or something more like a Volt, with a big pack and smaller generator. In the first case you can ride a long ways, but the engine is usually running. In the second case, you can drive it as an EV for short distances on the highway, or longer ones on city streets, running the engine mainly as a backup, for highway riding, or to recharge.
 
I am not overly concerned with takeoff speed. I am more looking towards the top end. I really want to figure out how to make it a highway crusier again, just electric instead of gas. A motorcycle that only goes 20 miles between charges is pretty much useless to me. Pulling a trailer would defeat the purpose of converting in the first place.

Another point, the small generator along with solar on the flat areas and a small wind generator can all be combined to increase the range, even if only by a bit.

On another note, I am not familiar with all the abbreviations that get tossed around. C rate A? 28s? Is there a sticky thread with these kind of basics already posted?
 
Many many moons ago, I used a lawn mower engine to run a car alternator and powered an inverter from it. I was able to run various appliances from it as long as I only did one at a time. A refridgerator or one washer... I wonder if I do the same kind of thing to keep a pack charged, how much range could I get?

I seem to recall the lawn mower engine ran for almost an hour on a very small tank of gas.

I wonder if I would increase the range doing it this way? Instead of 200 miles per tank, might I get 400?

If this would work and I can double the range, then I am all for it. Just saw a generator 1800 watts that runs 5 hours on half a gallon of gas. If it is able to keep the charge up then it would seriously increase the range I would get from my 4.5 gallon tank.
 
Chaplain said:
Another point, the small generator along with solar on the flat areas and a small wind generator can all be combined to increase the range, even if only by a bit.

It won't work.
And talking about a small wind generator shows you have no idea about all this. Before buying any parts please read through this site and gain some knowledge. Then look up what Zero Motorcycles has for a drive train and battery pack to be able to ride two up at a serious distance.
 
Here is a specification page for 2017 Zero motorcycles:

https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/2017/specs.php

These are in the ballpark of what you are looking for.
Note the motor is rated for 52,000 Watts
The battery is rated at 11.4 kWh for the SR. This gives a range of 81 miles at 70mph.

That is a really big battery and motor. You can do some math from there to figure things out.
You might find a big enough battery from a wrecked electric car, like a Chevy Volt or Bolt.

A 5hp gas engine/generator might make 2kW if you are lucky. Better to just use a bigger battery.
Solar panels covering the entire surface would not even come close to 1kW.

You might consider looking for a dead Zero and using the parts.
 
and a small wind generator

Let me explain why this is wrong. Just as a car alternator or a generator increases the load on the engine (because the energy has to come from somewhere) a wind turbine on a moving vehicle slows it down by increasing air drag. Since converting energy from one form to another ALWAYS results in losses (2nd law of thermodynamics), the windmill produces a net loss of energy - it loses more energy overall than it produces.
 
Ditch the mid-drive option and stick with something like a 273 80H motor. Sounds like you want range more than anything, a shaft, chain or belt drive is just more parasitic loss eating up the range you want.

1100cc's of engine, trans, exhaust, carbs, gas tank, battery, ect.. is more than enough room for a very large battery pack capable of maybe 100miles, 1 up at 70 mph.

200 miles in a single shot? You'll need to build an oversized pack, like beyond the dimensions of the old engine and up into a hollowed out gas tank. More importantly, you will need to improve your aerodynamic profile. A custom fairing skinning this build can dramatically reduce the wasted energy at your target speed especially over 200 miles.

You are seriously wasting brainpower trying to hybridize this build. Better aero will net you far more than any generator or turbine you try to bolt on.

With electric builds sustaining anything over 60mph is just very inefficient. There really is only two ways around this, one is brute force meaning higher capacity battery, the other is with finesse, a sleek aerodynamic profile with the least amount of drag possible. Seeing as the custom aero route is generally not in the realm of most DIYers, a big thicc ass battery is what's gonna get you 200 miles.

The overall capacity could be increased by adding some hard bags with even more cells. Depending on how you configure the wiring, this could even be a "bolt on " pack paralleled with the main battery you use just for the longer rides. You could also use a SAE J1772 EV charging port, the plug at most public charge stations, take some time before your ride and plan those occasional long distance 2 up rides around accessible charge points.
 
Twice a year I haul a photographer around the island to cover either the Honolulu Marathon or the Dick Evans bicycle race. The bike race is about 175 miles from the time I leave home till I get back home. That's about the farthest ride there is here. Occasionally, I do a double back but it is still almost always under 200 miles. My wife likes to ride with me, hence the 2up. If I had the money, I would just buy a new ride, but that is more than I can swing, at least for now.

I want to be able to have my wife hop on and we go for a 100-mile ride without having to charge up halfway around the island (Oahu).
Plenty of battery is pretty much the only real option I have right now. I have a windshield already and it helps the mileage, but I never measured to find out how much.

I am looking at a belt from the motor to the wheel, a 1:1 gear ratio and just program it slower than the 6000 rpm the motor is capable of. Using a reduction just makes no sense to me because it wastes power in the gears, and the motor uses less power at lower RPMs anyway. The motor already has torque coming out its ears, unlike a gas hog which has to get up to speed to have any real torque. So why the gear reduction system?
 
Chaplain said:
I am looking at a belt from the motor to the wheel, a 1:1 gear ratio and just program it slower than the 6000 rpm the motor is capable of. Using a reduction just makes no sense to me because it wastes power in the gears, and the motor uses less power at lower RPMs anyway. The motor already has torque coming out its ears, unlike a gas hog which has to get up to speed to have any real torque. So why the gear reduction system?
I guess you've changed your mind from the first post, then? (see quote below) (Or else, it's just not worded very well.)

Chaplain said:
. I'm planning on using a Golden Motor 5kw as a mid-drive. I'm not really sure how to connect it to the existing transmission and what that will require.

If you intend to run 1:1 direct to the wheel, then you should use a motor that is wound for the same RPM (at the voltage you will run it at) the wheel needs to spin at maximum speed, because the motor is also going to spin at that RPM.

If the motor is wound to spin faster than that, you should gear it at the ratio that gives you the top speed you want at the voltage you'll run it at.

See http://ebikes.ca/simulator for how various motor windings, votlages, and wheel sizes, etc., all work out for system efficiency and heating, etc. Since you're using 1:1, it's the same as using a DD hubmotor as far as the simulator is concerned.
 
Chaplain said:
Twice a year I haul a photographer around the island to cover either the Honolulu Marathon or the Dick Evans bicycle race. The bike race is about 175 miles from the time I leave home till I get back home. That's about the farthest ride there is here. Occasionally, I do a double back but it is still almost always under 200 miles. My wife likes to ride with me, hence the 2up. If I had the money, I would just buy a new ride, but that is more than I can swing, at least for now.

I want to be able to have my wife hop on and we go for a 100-mile ride without having to charge up halfway around the island (Oahu).
Plenty of battery is pretty much the only real option I have right now. I have a windshield already and it helps the mileage, but I never measured to find out how much.

I am looking at a belt from the motor to the wheel, a 1:1 gear ratio and just program it slower than the 6000 rpm the motor is capable of. Using a reduction just makes no sense to me because it wastes power in the gears, and the motor uses less power at lower RPMs anyway. The motor already has torque coming out its ears, unlike a gas hog which has to get up to speed to have any real torque. So why the gear reduction system?

I don't want to sound too harsh, but it seems like you have no clue at all regarding the project you plan.
You really need to spend some time reading everything you can on this forum, there's a lot of things you don't seem to get yet.

Solar panels: useless, you'll get maybe 200W of power max if you cover the entire surface of your bike, which would look ugly as hell too.
Windmill: totally useless, you will end up spending more energy to make it turn than it will give you back, so it's only good if you plan on losing range.
Generator: Much better to save that precious space for a bigger battery.
Let's say your generator outputs an impressive 2KW (that would be amazing already). That means, if you plan on riding for 2 hours, that you'll have charged your battery with 4KW of juice. Nice.
Problem is, your generator will be quite big (let's imagine its some kind of lawnmower motor, with an alternator and a voltage converter/rectifier). In my opinion, this whole thing will be probably equal if not bigger in size compared to a 4000W battery block. So it's just better to put this battery in there in the first place.
The only way I could see for a generator being actually useful would be if you found a gas turbine, but that's not really realistic.

Gear ratios: I don't think you understand how belts work, the losses are the same wether its 1:1 or 1:5 or 5:2. Also, what matters is not the power output of the motor at a given RPM, but its efficiency. And it's not great at all at low rpms usually. I don't recommend you an inboard motor anyway, there's no advantage in your situation.

Autonomy: Getting 200miles at highway speed (60mph) is not entirely unrealistic, but close to be. From my approximate calculation, you would need a battery power of around 16 000 Wh at the very, very minimum. Surely even more if you ride with your wife. IMHO, realistically, it would need probably 20KWh. That might be really huge. Your bike's chassis is quite big, but I'm not really confident you can actually squeeze that much battery power in it. The tank being a bit small and oddly shaped, I think you should forget putting batteries in there. Maybe you could fit in the controller instead.

Cost: I think that if you plan on spending less on an electric bike of these specs than a gas bike, you're likely to be very disappointed. It will likely be much more expensive, especially if you need such a giant battery pack.
A good hub motor might cost around 2000 dollars, a good controller will be at the very least 800 and I have no idea about how much will cost the battery wherever you live, but I guess it will be more than 5000 bucks. And those are quite conservative figures in my opinion. Add also the cost of a charger, of various little parts and it might be much more expensive than gas bike, with lesser specs.

If I had to build this project "properly", I'd go for this motor:
http://www.cnqsmotor.com/en/article_read/QS%20Motor%2017X4.5inch%2012kW%20273%2070H%20V3%20Water%20Cooled%20Electric%20Motorcycle%20Hub%20Motor/423.html

I'd take the watercooled version because it would likely need that to withstand high speeds for a long time period, plus 2 people on a bike will create quite a bit of heat during takeoffs.

About the controller, not entirely sure in that power range but at least something like a Mobipus 600 or, preferably, some equivalent from another brand (Kelly, APT, Sevcon, whatever). Here again, watercooled.

About the battery, I think the only way is to go for the best possible li-ion cells here, I'm not so familiar with those since I prefer using LiFePO4. Regarding the pack voltage, 84V or higher would be better if you plan on reaching high speeds more efficiently, so you can avoid using flux weakening.

Anyway, no offense, but I'm fairly certain this project is not achievable for you today, you need to learn a great deal of stuff first before attempting something like that, it's not an easy build even for experienced builders. Anything is possible, it's certainly not rocket science, but take your time to really understand every bit first :)
We'll gladly help you anyways, wish you the best in this project!
 
Trying to achieve your goals by electrifying your worn out chopper bike will cost 8 to 10 thousand dollar. So if you think you can't afford a new bike just get a low mileage second hand ICE bike. That would be much wiser and less frustrating.
 
Yes, I have changed my mind a few times. :thumb:
I came here to this forum to learn. I learn best by spitballing ideas, which is what I'm doing with all of you.
I have a number of options open to me and as I learn more by reading and discussing them here they change or are eliminated.

Purchasing a used ICE bike is a huge option (and is very likely as this build is expected to take me a year or so) but so is a custom build from the ground up. I have a frame design that would accomplish my goals, but I would have to add saddlebag battery packs to get the range with 2up. I am not a welder and I have no idea what it would cost to build the frame I have designed. I also have an alternate version that requires far less welding using a bolt together square tube. I would be running wires thru there either way and the square tube is far easier to work with.

One of my options is to build a sidecar and stick a gas generator in there for long rides. Not my first choice, but it would solve many problems, especially if I create it with quick releases so it pops on or off without a major undertaking. I am considering a hub motor on the sidecar as well. The hack (sidecar) could carry extra battery packs as well as the generator. In any case, I have already planned on $2,000 worth of batteries. I will build this one way or another. I might get a used ICE in the meantime, but I really want an electric m-cycle. I really liked my current m-cycle but I am not afraid to cannibalize it if necessary.

LiFePo is my preferred choice after some reading on batteries. They are the most energy dense and not as vulnerable to catching fire. If I could find a generator small enough with a big enough output, I would have only 1 pack just to keep current flows stable.

I really appreciate all the help and comments I've received so far. I'm not stupid, just ignorant which is why I'm here in the first place.

:warn: No matter what option I wind up going with, I have to make it street legal, so turn signals, lights and other items must be included.
 
SlowCo said:
It won't work.
And talking about a small wind generator shows you have no idea about all this. Before buying any parts please read through this site and gain some knowledge. Then look up what Zero Motorcycles has for a drive train and battery pack to be able to ride two up at a serious distance.

Actually, it will work. Just not well enough to be of use.

I like everything about the Zero except its looks and price. I'm more of a Harley style guy instead of crotch rockets. Thanx for the info though. It helped me to understand some other stuff.
 
Chaplain said:
SlowCo said:
It won't work.
And talking about a small wind generator shows you have no idea about all this. Before buying any parts please read through this site and gain some knowledge. Then look up what Zero Motorcycles has for a drive train and battery pack to be able to ride two up at a serious distance.

Actually, it will work. Just not well enough to be of use.

I like everything about the Zero except its looks and price. I'm more of a Harley style guy instead of crotch rockets.

No, a wind generator will cost more energy while riding than it will generate.
And my point about Zero motorcycles is that is shows what is needed to ride a reasonable distance at a reasonable speed if you want to electrify your chopper. But your chopper will be far less efficient so you'll need more power and more kWh to do it. Thinking a 5kW electric motor with a 1:1 ratio to the rear wheel will work is just too far beside reality to take serious...
 
SlowCo said:
No, a wind generator will cost more energy while riding than it will generate.

I don't think this is entirely true. I haven't actually tested myself, but in my opinion it will depend where you put the wind generator.
I believe that if you put it behind the front wheel, where the radiator is supposed to be on a gas bike, it will generate a bit of electricity without bringing any more losses than what the bike would have without it. Because the wind would just hit the radiator or the frame/battery box without it anyways. So it won't create energy out of "nothing", it will just use a bit of an energy that otherwise would have been lost.
But yeah, we all agree on the fact that it is pointless.

@OP If you want to reach 200 miles you can forget LiFePO4, unfortunately. I'm a big fan of this chemistry, but it is not appropriate for your project. By my calculation, assuming you use A123 cells like I do, and assuming you use the bare minimum battery size I calculated earlier (16KWh), your battery alone would weight 140 kg... And it would be absolutely gigantic.

The side car idea could be a solution to bring down the cost and use a gas range extender, yes. You could fit a big generator here which would allow you to have a smaller, less expensive battery. I wouldn't know how to connect it to the whole system though, I don't think this is as simple as just parallelling it with the battery and the controller, never attempted it myself. But yeah, this could work.
As for using a hub motor on the side car, as far as I heard it can be quite dangerous and it will be complicated to control the 2 motors at the same time.
 
@Dui,
I had the same thoughts on the motor on the hack but I tossed it in the ring to see what others thought.
 
This went from a cheap build to carry 2 people 200 miles to now a wind generator on the bike to charge the battery while riding, so the thread title should be "The impossible dream that defies the laws of physics".
 
@John in CR, Yeah, it's a mutant thread.

@fetcher, I saw the livewire in person. They had it here in winter of '17. I should've said that I'm a classic cruiser style guy.
 
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