KTM 200 exc goes electric

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j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Oct 21 2020 12:57pm

Yes, it may very well be something like that that is causing the problems. It usually happens when braking, the wheel probably locks and moves a little, locks and moves.. There are no faults reported from the controller when it happens.
I think it has happened without braking too, in low or no power. It can happen when I use the regen or just the normal mechanic brake.
I have ruled out the most things I can try by disabling in the program and disconnect everything that is not needed.

Basically the only thing I have left to try is lowering the phase amps and throttle rise/decline. But I think it should show an overcurrent fault if it was something like that :?

I dont have a wheel or hub with any sort of soft mount for the sprocket, I dont know if it exist for a dirt bike.

thoroughbred   100 W

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by thoroughbred » Oct 21 2020 5:52pm

KTM LC4 enduro bikes all had cush hub rear wheels that will bolt right onto your 200exc

did your nucular controller cut out as well?

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Oct 22 2020 12:36pm

Thanks for the tip.

I didn't have this kind of cutout on the nuc, I had some overcurrent on high power that I had to adjust some pid regulation to get rid of.
I didnt have cutouts on the votol at first either, I dont remember how long it took before I first had them.
It can very well be related to how I ride, I probably ride a lot harder now then when I started.
Harder on the brake, harder on the throttle.

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Nov 06 2020 3:50pm

I think you have seen enough pictures of a muddy bike, so here is one of the trousers and backpack instead:

Image

I havent used th regen brake lately, because it is not reliable when the controller cuts out from time to time.
That brings another problem:

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I have made some videos too, it seems like there are some interest?
But Im stuck there now. They need some editing. Some parts needs to be cut out, and some waiting needs to be fast forwarded. There are also a problem that the sound is ok in speed, but too low. And the picture is too slow, and dont keep up with the sound.
I dont know, I am probably frocked when it comes to make something of it.

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Nov 06 2020 4:48pm

https://youtu.be/7alfsPYzdsg

Okay, here is an unedited link. You have to fast forward the first part and the waiting parts yourself. Dont miss the last part, where I can go my full speed without waiting.
It looks easy and slow, but it is not..

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Nov 07 2020 7:20am

Fixed it, so now you can see the video.
I dont know why it is low quality though.
The sound is low, you have to turn it up a lot.

There is a long wait from about 23 to 33 min, so about 10 minutes to skip.
I wanted to get at least one video out there, and see how much interest there are. Maybe I can get some help editing later, and put up something better.

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Nov 14 2020 1:32pm

This might be more interesting to watch. A little play on a sand track in front of the camera:
https://youtu.be/84AjA_MXO8Y

Pentti M Reku   10 mW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by Pentti M Reku » Nov 15 2020 4:47am

Hi, this video editor is free and pretty easy to use, so we dont need to look at that stupid announcement next time: https://www.openshot.org

Cool bike, I have been following you for a while!

HrKlev   100 W

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by HrKlev » Nov 15 2020 6:25am

Cool videos! It must be pretty nice not having to deal with gearing on those enduro tracks? I dont have much experience, but I always struggle with being in the righ gear for those gnarly parts....

Is it harder to control wheelspin on this bike, compared to ICE?
DIY lightweight mid drive with torque sensing build thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=107622

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Nov 15 2020 11:52am

I havent really driven any ice dirt bikes to compare with. Only tested a few times many years ago.
But I think you are probably right in both cases.

Actually not to long ago I thought I that I couldn't get up a steep climb on wet mountain if I wasent able to start with some speed.
But then I saw a friend who has been riding for many years do it on his 4-stroke 250cc.
He said no problem, he just had to be careful with the clutch and a little bit of throttle.

I learned later when I took it really easy, and was really careful with the throttle that I could do it too.
But I think it might be easier on the ice bike, because on first gear and slipping on the clutch if it starts spinning it is spinning slow.
For me if it starts spinning it is spinning fast. But on the other hand, I dont have to worry about engine stalling. I can just turn the throttle slowly until the bike starts moving. So I am not sure..

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Nov 15 2020 1:02pm

I made a short clip of a situation like that with a climb after a stop:
https://youtu.be/r4tUVmh70WQ

Sorry Pentti, I havent changed video editor yet..

Thegonzoman7   100 µW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by Thegonzoman7 » Nov 26 2020 5:23am

a tip I have for him and anybody else who has large ⚡️ on power connections especially those containing large capacitors in the circuitry. Use what’s called in-rush resistors. Connect alligator clips on each end. Connect (-) neg and use resistor on (+) initial connection to precharge capacitors. After 3 seconds connect whatever is Arcing. Easy and fast. Save your electronics too. Especially with your 🔋connection to motor speed controllers, and chargers , you know, the bread and butter us electric guys wake up to in the morning.. and go sleep and prolly dream about also!.. lol it becomes an addiction. Seriously. I’ve noticed I am not alone in my mad pursuit of bigger, badder, faster, longer, and long walks home when all of the above = big smile🤪 followed by 🚭⚠️〽️🌬💨🙅‍♂️🙇🏻‍♂️🤦🏻

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Nov 29 2020 10:48am

Hmm, I have a pre charge resistor with a timer..
If I connect or disconnect anything I turn off the contactors first, so I dont have to mess with live high voltage wires.

My suspension is way too soft, I have been checking springs lately:

Image

The rear spring is rather easy to test, or it would have been if it wasent progressive..
I would need something that can take more pressure than a bathroom scale.

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Front springs proved difficult in another way. The bathroom scale is not sensitive enough to measure with just a few mm compression. Here I had to go for 10cm, but then the spring would not stay strait.

Image

I ended up with this, and I think I got reasonably good result.

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stan.distortion   100 W

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by stan.distortion » Dec 03 2020 5:29am

Maybe put a low pressure gauge on the press, at a guess an air pressure gauge (10-16 bar) should be about right. Working out the press cylinder piston area in cm2 and multiplying by bar would give force but it would be easier to read a few low values from the bathroom scales to get a multiplier. EDIT: A multiplier for the return springs on the press would also need to be worked out and subtracted.
Projects indirectly sponsored by https://www.dash.org/

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Dec 04 2020 1:07pm

Thanks, but I think it would be difficult to get good readings from the pressure.
As you say, there are the return springs to consider. I suppose the weight of the piston is something to consider too.
And there are the friction on the piston, I dont think it is very smooth.

Anyway, I ended up leaving the stuff to a professional. I talked to him about springs, but he convinced me that I should change the damping too.
It seems my measurements was pretty good, he got the same result.

I have got it back, now I am eager to test the bike. It is a lot different, a lot more damping. Most noticeable in the rear.

I had 4.2 springs in the fork, now it is 5.0.
On the shock it started at 75, but both me and him was unable to measure how hard it got in the end.
But now I have a 105 spring.

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Dec 12 2020 2:38pm

In the last ride with suspension more up to the task the rear grip, or lack of it, became a more obvious problem.
So now it is time for new tires:

Image

Image

I went for a set of Michelin star cross5, that seems to be "the shit" to have now.
I went for medium, maybe I should have went for soft.
But in the rear I had a razorback, that seems to be kind of low end.
And it was pretty worn by now.
In the front I had a Firestone, that probably would have been fine a while longer

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by Bartosh » Dec 13 2020 2:45pm

j bjork wrote:
Oct 17 2020 10:58am
I was out riding again today, and I learned that the cutout problem is not solved :(
This time it was a bumpy track, with lots of rocks and roots. It seems to be those kind of tracks that are the most problematic.
FYI It most likely is a hall related problem. I recently experienced the same on a different controller. Going down a hill plus some bumps and stones and the controller reported a hall error. So Im pretty sure votol cuts out but doesn't report what's going on (anyway there's no sign of it in logs, what we both confirmed before). Note that in my case it only happened once, even though the motor takes some serious abuse @ 30kW on a regular basis.

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Dec 14 2020 1:32am

I have had the cut out a lot of times, almost every ride and often more then once.
I think it has been during braking going downhill every time.
It happens both when using mechanic brakes and regen, but when it happens the regen stops working..

I wonder if the reading can be less accurate at low rpm, my theory is more that when the rear wheel locks the motor can sometimes reverse a little. Then if the controller get an unexpected hall combination it cuts.

I have never had it happening under power either, even if I dont run 30kw.
(My highest is about 29,5kw, but usually more like 26-27kw)

I have so far not seen 400bA, I think the highest is about 365. It seems like I need more phase amps or higher voltage to get there.

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by larsb » Dec 14 2020 10:55am

Do you have strong enough battery?
Voltage isn’t likely the issue, motor, controller and battery is what, 30mohm? For 400A you’d need only 12V to drive it.

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Dec 14 2020 1:03pm

larsb wrote:
Dec 14 2020 10:55am
Do you have strong enough battery?
Voltage isn’t likely the issue, motor, controller and battery is what, 30mohm? For 400A you’d need only 12V to drive it.
Wouldn't it take a lot of phase amps to get that much bA at that low rpm?
I am limited to 500pA. I could turn it up, but I am afraid the controller wouldn't live long :(

Here is a little from a log. The voltage is already low, it seems to sag more at low voltage.
Time; Volt; bA; Rpm; km/h; Tcont; Tmot; Tcoeff; Power; GPS
18:58:44;78.5;0.4;676;12.0;22;17;40;31;0 0;
18:58:44;77.8;37.2;1094;19.4;22;17;27;2894;0 0;
18:58:45;74.1;129.7;2025;35.9;22;17;29;9611;0 0;
18:58:45;72.7;228.1;2692;47.7;22;17;31;16583;0 0;
18:58:46;71.1;299.1;3393;60.2;22;17;24;21266;0 0;
18:58:46;71.2;345.6;3946;70.0;22;17;7;24607;0 0;
18:58:47;71.1;339.9;4408;78.2;22;18;7;24167;0 0;
18:58:47;78;342.9;4435;78.7;22;18;7;26746;0 0;

Here it sags 7v, I think I usually dont see more than about 5v sag.
A little odd that it picks up voltage again at the end?

Bartosh   100 W

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by Bartosh » Dec 14 2020 2:05pm

Last row is an anomaly caused by a delay in data gathering (controller or BT side).

Btw em150sp still doing fine @ 540pA. And regarding your batt, if it recently started to sag more, winter is coming!

larsb   10 MW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by larsb » Dec 14 2020 3:31pm

540 ph a is a lot!
i've run about 300-350 battery amps as max, don't know what the phase was. I think it'd be best to stay with what you've got when you're at these levels, especially since not all Votols seem to be 100% stable.
Still quite fantastic output for the price :D

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Dec 16 2020 12:23pm

It can very well be mostly a battery temp issue that limits my battery amps.
When I did a test on the street the voltage was already low, it starts limiting at 72v..
On the enduro tracks I dont use full power at first. So when I do the voltage has already dropped, and probably battery temp too.
It would be interesting to calculate what battery amps the 500pA should be able to pull, but I dont really understand the math :oops:

There are 2 examples here, from Lebowski and major:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35278&hilit=phase

j bjork   10 kW

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Dec 16 2020 12:31pm

Btw, I thought the pA was unlocked. But it turns out it is locked at 540 max, so I dont think I can resist to try the extra 40 :wink:

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Re: KTM 200 exc goes electric

Post by j bjork » Dec 19 2020 2:38pm

It was time for a new front sprocket, and then I saw this:

Image

1mm is worn off the inside. It was never this bad on the chinese sprockets, but they didnt last this long.
I decided it was time to do something about the chain alignment, I wanted to move the motor 1mm out from the beginning.
But it is hard to get a clean cut on my homemade mill, so I settled for 1mm less milled off the motor bracket than I wanted.
It seems I should have taken off more like 2mm more.

Service time:

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I cut off more like 4mm, and made shims:

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The chain seems to line up fine now, but if I need some fine tuning I can just change shims.

I also took of this screen that is supposed to keep dirt from coming in to my cooling duct between the batteries, and on the motor:

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And dug out a "little" dirt between the batteries :roll:

Image

I made a plate instead:

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I definitely dont need the battery cooling now, and probably not the motor cooling either.
The motor cooling wont hurt, but it would surely be better to shield off more battery cooling.

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