Snow moped

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Rickard m   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 23
Joined: Dec 20 2017 3:04pm
Location: Stockholm

Snow moped

Post by Rickard m » Jan 25 2022 2:48am

Just started a small new project before the Christmas holidays. It will be a small snow moped. Got so inspired when I stumbled across Moonbikes 😍on the internet. (google it, a light snow vehicle with hub drive) Then I just found a empty dirt bike frame cheaply on an ad, a 2013 KTM 85. No wheels or motor, perfect for my build. I bought an used ski from a snowmobile and mounted to the front. I also have an electric boat motor conversion, I wanted to use that same 48v battery, so I made a box in the original motor position.
Attachments
2ski.JPG
2ski.JPG (92.26 KiB) Viewed 579 times
3batterybox.JPG
3batterybox.JPG (105.28 KiB) Viewed 579 times
1bike.JPG
1bike.JPG (111.05 KiB) Viewed 579 times

Rickard m   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 23
Joined: Dec 20 2017 3:04pm
Location: Stockholm

Re: Snow moped

Post by Rickard m » Jan 25 2022 2:59am

I bought a replacement track and drive wheel from a snow blower at the local hard ware store. I figured out a bolt on unit that should fit inside the original swingarm. Ordered some laser cut steel and welded/screwed it together. The other wheels inside are 120mm kick bike wheels.
Took out the center and sourced the biggest hub motor I could find that fitted inside the wheel. Ordered some water cut spacers to join them together.
Attachments
in place.JPG
in place.JPG (72.22 KiB) Viewed 577 times
lasercut.JPG
lasercut.JPG (98.36 KiB) Viewed 577 times
drive unit.JPG
drive unit.JPG (100.4 KiB) Viewed 577 times
drive wheel.JPG
drive wheel.JPG (87.57 KiB) Viewed 577 times
motor.JPG
motor.JPG (89.81 KiB) Viewed 577 times

Elektrosherpa   100 W

100 W
Posts: 286
Joined: Feb 07 2021 8:19am

Re: Snow moped

Post by Elektrosherpa » Jan 25 2022 4:53am

Interesting build :thumb:

Unfortunately, it wouldn't make any sense in my region (lack of snow) :D

But with a front wheel instead of the front ski (maybe even with its own second hub hotor)
couldn't this be a dirt track vehicle for extremely muddy places?
My Build (Bultaco Sherpa T350 -> QS138H70) :
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=110352

Rickard m   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 23
Joined: Dec 20 2017 3:04pm
Location: Stockholm

Re: Snow moped

Post by Rickard m » Jan 25 2022 5:43am

Thanks,
I need some help now, cant figure it out with the throttle. The kit I bought came with some kind of finger throttle that I don't want to use, I want to use a twist throttle (that I managed to put a nicer dirt bike grip on to) The problem is that the old one that fit had six wires. Goes inte the "LCD line on the controller. I measured them like in the picture. 48V into the brown, continued into the yellow when power on. Black is earth. Both green and white seems to have ~4,5-4,6 independent of what mode 1/2/3, the red one seems to be throttle signal, show ~0,8 in rest. The new twist throttle came with a white and yellow, and the 3 throttle wire Black/green/red in a separate connector. When I connect to the high voltage, and black, the display light up when I turn on the key. So in total 5 insted of the old six.
I have new six lug connectors so I have tried to connect this new fitting into that "LCD" line from the controller.

White/yellow/black is sorted. But How should I do with the rest?? I assume the new green should go where the old red was, signal. Do I need some kind of extra loop to compensate for lacking one wire? When I connect the new red into where the old connector showed 4,6 volt, I only read ~2, something now. Nothing happens when I twist... I got stuck here. HELP :shock: When I jack in the old throttle it works as normal again, but I dont want to use that one :roll: Could someone please point out what goes were Thanks,

Or is it best to source a 6 pin throttle? I thought it feel little dangerous to have the finger thing in front of the handlebar, thumb throttles uses to have it on backside for a reason... and I prefer twist.
Attachments
finger to twist.JPG
finger to twist.JPG (110.73 KiB) Viewed 550 times
new throttle.JPG
new throttle.JPG (83.52 KiB) Viewed 550 times
controller.JPG
controller.JPG (80.46 KiB) Viewed 550 times
finger throttle.JPG
finger throttle.JPG (69.33 KiB) Viewed 550 times

SlowCo   10 MW

10 MW
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Joined: Jan 05 2015 5:43pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Snow moped

Post by SlowCo » Jan 25 2022 6:55pm

Nice build :thumb:

calab   100 kW

100 kW
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Joined: Dec 11 2013 1:00am

Re: Snow moped

Post by calab » Jan 25 2022 7:30pm

Very cool indeed

It would be nice to get a full profile (side) view.

I was thinking of making an ice trike for picking metals in the alleys but the tracks is the ticket for deep snow, which around my parts only really happens once or twice a year for a day until the vehicles pack the snow down in the alleys.

larsb   10 MW

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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Snow moped

Post by larsb » Jan 26 2022 1:16am

:roll: What functionality does the lcd have, what can it show and do?

Some thoughts to clear the wiring question:
- The two 48v wires gives the battery status, these can be ruled out of the throttle issue

- if throttle signal is red, ground black then you need to find which of the two remaining wires is throttle feed. Since both are at roughly 5V then it could be either so you’ll need to find which one is switched.
That cable will be a function or communication signal, some times it’s lights on/off or brake light, speed mode etc.

the new throttle wiring should match to the correct pins off course so ground meets ground, +5V meets +5V etc. On your new throttle, (if they used the normal colors) then red is +5V, black ground, blueish is signal.
What controller and throttle is it? Ask seller for the info (even if most know knothing about the stuff they are selling) You might find more info here or if you google it. Good luck!
Last edited by larsb on Jan 26 2022 2:18am, edited 1 time in total.

Rickard m   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 23
Joined: Dec 20 2017 3:04pm
Location: Stockholm

Re: Snow moped

Post by Rickard m » Jan 26 2022 2:17am

The engine kit comes from some pretty mad off-road scooter, probably a little too small for this snowmobile, but the ambition is not a mountain goat, but rather to pull the kids' sled a few laps on a nearby football field. It was a complete kit with this throttle and controller etc., it is marked MOS, 50A and lots of Chinese characters :o . Googled the designation on the display yesterday and found a movie that you could set various settings using combination of the two buttons, so I might start trying it a bit with it anyway, even though I do not want to. :evil:
Attachments
bike.JPG
bike.JPG (112.91 KiB) Viewed 474 times

larsb   10 MW

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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Snow moped

Post by larsb » Jan 26 2022 2:19am

Link to your parts and a picture of the controller label would help.

If you’re a button, display and data liker then yes, otherwise you could just skip the functions of the buttons when you’ve gotten the setting you want and use the new throttle.

I don’t care for most of the data except voltage and riding feel so for me that would work :D

Rickard m   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 23
Joined: Dec 20 2017 3:04pm
Location: Stockholm

Re: Snow moped

Post by Rickard m » Jan 26 2022 2:40am

This was the kit:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003 ... 4c4dEMoHxH

This was the new throttle I have swapped grip on now, doesn't say much:
https://www.amazon.se/gp/product/B0946T ... UTF8&psc=1

Don't care about data either, just want to give full throttle :lol:

Or do you think this throttle would fit better? have six wires, in the crap translation it says something ablout one wire should go tho one of the motor phases?
https://www.amazon.se/Gashandtag-LCD-sk ... 86&sr=8-38

Elektrosherpa   100 W

100 W
Posts: 286
Joined: Feb 07 2021 8:19am

Re: Snow moped

Post by Elektrosherpa » Jan 26 2022 4:57am

Rickard m wrote:
Jan 26 2022 2:40am
This was the new throttle I have swapped grip on now, doesn't say much:
https://www.amazon.se/gp/product/B0946T ... UTF8&psc=1

...

Or do you think this throttle would fit better? have six wires, in the crap translation it says something ablout one wire should go tho one of the motor phases?
https://www.amazon.se/Gashandtag-LCD-sk ... 86&sr=8-38
I would not use any of these throttles.
I would always prefer separate key switches.
The less parts, the less sources for failure...
My Build (Bultaco Sherpa T350 -> QS138H70) :
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=110352

larsb   10 MW

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Joined: Dec 10 2014 5:12am
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Snow moped

Post by larsb » Jan 26 2022 6:51am

Rickard m wrote:
Jan 26 2022 2:40am
This was the kit:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003 ... 4c4dEMoHxH

This was the new throttle I have swapped grip on now, doesn't say much:
https://www.amazon.se/gp/product/B0946T ... UTF8&psc=1

Don't care about data either, just want to give full throttle :lol:

Or do you think this throttle would fit better? have six wires, in the crap translation it says something ablout one wire should go tho one of the motor phases?
https://www.amazon.se/Gashandtag-LCD-sk ... 86&sr=8-38

It seems there are too many functions to solve with the amount of wires with simple switching so there has to be a communication to and from the LCD. Should be possible to just try which cable you can remove and still get the LCD to work, that will be the throttle feed wire.

(the other 6wire throttle won't help your issue.)

Rickard m   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 23
Joined: Dec 20 2017 3:04pm
Location: Stockholm

Re: Snow moped

Post by Rickard m » Jan 26 2022 8:01am

Yes seems quite complex, Maybe I could keep that unit inside my Swingarm box and just run a 3 pin throttle to the handlebar.
(Real snow bikes usually have a spare fuel there, so I thought it would be a good idea to place some stuff in a box there now as well.)

Oh by the way, the bike got soo small when I lifted it down from the dirt bike stand :lol: My youngest daughter almost reached down when it sprung down (she has her foot on the stool there.) let it snow soon please
Attachments
bike down.JPG
bike down.JPG (182.17 KiB) Viewed 437 times

Rickard m   10 mW

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Joined: Dec 20 2017 3:04pm
Location: Stockholm

Re: Snow moped

Post by Rickard m » Jan 26 2022 10:53am

Another question for you, what do you think about tweaking a motor like this with a little more amperes? Since I already had a 48v battery, (with100A BMS) I chose the so-called "2000w kit", but the same motor seems to be sold in 3500w version, when you give it 72volts. How would it work instead if I get a slightly better controller and give it, for example, 80A instead of the maximum 50 that it will probably get now? Overheating will probably not be such a big problem as it is a winter toy... :roll:

larsb   10 MW

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Re: Snow moped

Post by larsb » Jan 26 2022 1:47pm

sure, it could be done like that, just get a programmable controller and ease up the amps until you start heating things, then back off a bit (or even better install a heat sensor in the motor, get a controller with heat limiting and increase the amps gradually until you get current limiting during your toughest type of riding)

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TommyCat   10 kW

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Location: North-west Illinois, USA

Re: Snow moped

Post by TommyCat » Jan 26 2022 4:51pm

I agree with larsb that your throttle need a proper 5vdc supply voltage.
Your display is a programmable model with the 4.6vdc wires being the TX and RX communication wires. As you've found, unsuitable for the throttle's supply.

Now I've seen mods made on this type of display where the new throttle cable is taken directly into the display's housing.
With the finger throttle removed, and the new throttle's wiring taking its place. Just hook the 3 wires up accordingly with the diagram below... (I.E. the display has a 5vdc supply internally) You could also splice your key switch in at the same time, in series with the 48 wire.


Image

If you think that you can do without any of the features that the display provides. Remove the display and install your key switch between the 48 and ---> wires. (BROWN and YELLOW)
You'll have to get the 5vdc from the controller though... either internally at a 5 or 4.3vdc pad. Or externally at the motor's hall sensor supply. The RED and BLACK wires.

You may also have to short the receive wire (RX) to ground. I speculate that this display is much like a KT controller's display...


Image


If you're really determined to get it working NOW. Put 3-1.5vdc batteries together in series for 4.5vdc. Connect the throttle's RED wire to batteries + , GREEN to displays connector .8 (looks RED), and the BLACK to display connector ground. (yes, both grounds need to be connected...) And tape the battery pack somewhere to give it a try. (you need to see .8vdc at closed throttle to ~3.6vdc WOT at the .8 connector wire.)

For more in depth details on hall sensor throttles and how they work, see this thread...
Guide to Hall Sensor Throttle operation, testing, and modification.

Hopefully I've made myself clear. But if any questions, please ask BEFORE wiring... :shock:


Regards,
T.C.
See my completed Magic Pie V5 rear hub E-Bike build Here!

Rickard m   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 23
Joined: Dec 20 2017 3:04pm
Location: Stockholm

Re: Snow moped

Post by Rickard m » Jan 27 2022 1:52am

thank you so much for your detailed answer! :bigthumb: That sounds logical.
I will now first wait for snow and test drive a bit as it is now, probably I will want a little more power so it will surely land in that I change controller and then it will surely be one with a separate throttle 3pin connector so then some of the throttles I have in stock would work, I hope :confused: :D .

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