Hybrid alternator as BLDC

stevon

10 mW
Joined
Jul 27, 2022
Messages
20
Hi,
I was wondering if a Hyundai hybrid alternator ($142 used) could be used as a BLDC motor to power an ATV? I have a Yamaha Timberwolf YFB250 250 that I bought without a motor. I want to electrify it and limit to 18 mph. the original gas motor had 18.76 HP (13.8 kW) @ 8000 rpm Torque: 19.6 Nm (14.46 lb-ft) @ 5000 rpm was all the specs I can find for the gas engine. The rear end ratio is 4.414 to 1 with 22 inch tall tires. Don't need this ATV for highway or farm use and won't be cruising roads at 50mph! The ATV will be used for pleasure in a small backyard along with a Razor dirt quad 500. I plan to narrow the rear wheel tire size from the stock 22/10-10 to 8 inch rim and tires to be the same as the front wheel setup (narrower vehicle profile). Have been studying Austin Blakes Go cart and "rusty" Alternator conversions and also was facinated by the "The One True Alter-motor" article https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=31584 but that article is still open and unfinished.
I think a water cooled hybrid alternator of some type would be a good candidate from a structural and electrical perspective. Have been trolling the web for weeks trying to make up my mind which way to go within a budget. The controller seems to be the major stumbling block. What is an affordable choice for an approximate minimum 6HP/controller motor output? The https://flipsky.net/products/flipsky-75100-foc-75v-100a-single-esc-base-on-vesc-for-electric-skateboard-scooter-ebike-speed-controller?_pos=7&_sid=1b571615c&_ss=r looks good for $99 but will it meet my needs? I definitely need some advice/mentoring for this project, thanks!
 
Do you know what kind of motor/alternator that is?
I cam to think of one thread with a induction motor/alternator, but I dont find it now.
I guess it is somewhere in the motor section, or they hid it somewhere else.
A few other threads that might be interesting:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=85514
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=111764
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=110673
 
j bjork,

Thanks for the links! I do not know without buying one and taking it apart but from the outside it looks like it's similar to the GM Chevy Malibu Hybrid unit in "The One True Alter-motor" article. being water cooled I think you could get more power out of it but don't know the details. I was hoping someone here did this already and had an example to follow. Actually any mild hybrid use designed alternator would work in my case I'm thinking. Trying to avoid expensive mistakes and a dead end project with nothing to show for results.

Stephen
 
Have you tried spinning the pulley?
I think it has to be induction or have an electromagnet like a "normal" alternator if there is no cogging.

Edit, I think this is the thread I was thinking of:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=113837

It was right on the first page, I was looking further back :)
 
j bjork,

No I didn't buy the Hyundai alternator yet. I want to see a successful package motor and controller setup that someone has made work for reasonable $ before I start buying parts. Most articles talk about mixed results and anguish over bad choices/failures. Did not yet see a successful conversion with a list of parts and choices that work or the HP/torque they got out of their conversions. I did see a self made dyno to test a converted alternator on "fix make break" post https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgrc7Vw_rz8.
was hoping to avoid having to do all that for my needs.
this seems to be a real engineering exercise and not for the faint hearted or financially limited folks. I do love projects and have some Electrical Engineering college credits, but This will be quite the challenge it looks like. Hopefully this project will be within my skillset and budget, trying to save some pain in the process.....

Stephen
 
j bjork,

I found a possible canidate for conversion its a 2013 Hyundai HSG alternator for $90 on eBay. The stator looks strange to me, more like a BLDC rotor than a car alternators, wondering what speed can be had from this alter-motor? Did some research crusing the web and want to test it with a RC boat BLDC controller
"5-12S 200A Brushless ESC & Program Box For FVT RC Boat Electric Speed Controller" with ESC+BOX selection.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/225054647024?hash=item34664d62f0:g:GFUAAOSwGuRivpya
It's sensorless, continuous current 200A, burst current 400A up to 10 Second, bidirection "Forward/Backward" or "Forward" selection and water cooled. My next concern is the current draw on the proposed battery pack with it being too heavy (lead acid) or too expensive (lithium ion) It would be nice if I had a list to go from but I'm not even sure what I'm asking for and don't have solid HP or torque at speed figures to submit for solutions. Engineering will be required and testing to get a successful (in my application) figures. I saw one guy who made a dyno to test his converted alternators at "Fix Make Break" web site:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/225054647024?hash=item34664d62f0:g:GFUAAOSwGuRivpya
Looks like I may have to do a similar setup to help determine results, then publish my findings after

Stephen
 

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I may be off my nut with the boat controller idea, This would not be a typical BLDC motor with magnets on the outside of the rotor. see http://isopack.blogspot.com/2018/07/ipms-overview.html.
Isopac describes what he went through in his article:
http://isopack.blogspot.com/p/electric-shifter-kart.html
The controller was discussed on this article:
http://isopack.blogspot.com/2015/02/turning-used-car-parts-into-silly.html
I may be over my head on a controller to use this HSG alternator

Stephen
 
I found some posts about using a "lebowski Brain" and a Honda IMA controller to drive the HSG motor. It's vey interesting but I'm not sure I can do this
E-Go-Kart quick update Lebowski brain IMA controller with HSG motor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ILI2Wan2BY
There is an older Taylor Dunn golf cart I can have for free, probably a series wound setup to scrounge for parts and a controller.
Might be more straight forward for my application, no code programing required!
There also is the Endless Sphere post "The HI-Lebowski: a Lebowski SMD brain running a zombified Honda IMA Inverter: *a HOW-TO guide*"
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=105711&start=25
sounds ambitious!

Stephen
 
Using the free "Taylor Dunn golf cart I can have for free, probably a series wound setup to scrounge for parts and a controller." would mean abandoning my A/C motor thoughts but would save me a lot of pain, money and time on the design.
I don't blame anyone for not suggesting a setup, I never said what my goals are in specific numbers HP desired, current used, torque required, speed of vehicle, etc. here are some numbers that I do have:

Top speed desired =18 mph
HP desired = 3-5 HP electric should be enough (original gas motor had 18.76 HP (13.8 kW@ 8000 rpm)
Torque planned = 8-14 lb-ft : (original gas motor had 19.6 Nm (14.46 lb-ft) @ 5000 rpm
Diff ratio is 4.414 to 1
Tire outside diameter = 22 inch
 
This is the puppy to power, a 92 Yamaha Timberwolf YFB250 250 rolling chasis
 

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I purchased a Curtis 1232E-5221 AC Motor Controller but have no way to program it, there is a harness kit on eBay
:https://www.ebay.com/itm/325144337467?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D683cda90b2244e3b9ce1b2f58107f25d%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D334343403552%26itm%3D325144337467%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DUnbranded&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A36ed8f37-12f1-11ed-880e-fa5915a2004a%7Cparentrq%3A62482d0a1820ad390818b307ffff890e%7Ciid%3A1.
The programmer hand held unit is basically $500! is there a cheaper way to terminal server into the controller and program the Curtis unit? Say with a laptop PC? The hall sensor connection will be another challenge I'm sure....

Stephen
 

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Controller arrived!

I got it for $200 on eBay and it looks to be unused, brand new! I hope this will be powerful enough to move forward. I'm still configuring the pulley/shaft/ bearing holder for the stock differential on the ATV. The HSG alternator has not arrived yet. After wiring a test jig, some learning of how to program the controller and a jig to get this done is another project!

Stephen
 

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$200 is a great price for the controller.

Thunderstruck motors rents programmers and have schematics online.

https://www.nocoev.com/product/CURTIS%201234%201236%201238%20Controller%20Programming%20Cable.htm#gsc.tab=0
 
PaPaSteve,

Yeah, at that price I couldn't refuse it, what the heck, the Chinese controllers are close to that in price! but there is little knowledge or support for them online and I don't speak Chinese for support calls, lol. Right now I'm waiting for the HSG alternator to come in later today. I'm still working out the differential mods, decided to go with a 6 rib, poly V type belt instead of gears, chain or a timing belt. The serpentine belts are high rpm rated and start Hyundai 4 and 6 cyl engines so why not drive my ATV? there should be no need to change the supplied factory pulley on the alternator. I can buy different pulleys for the diff to tune the rpm/torque load if needed, have a 5.5" 6 groove pulley on order. A concern is the pillow block I purchased, the max RPM maxed out is listed as at 4k approximately. Will see if this transmission setup works.

Stephen

PaPaSteve said:
$200 is a great price for the controller.

Thunderstruck motors rents programmers and have schematics online.

https://www.nocoev.com/product/CURTIS%201234%201236%201238%20Controller%20Programming%20Cable.htm#gsc.tab=0
 
A little more progress today.

I plan to press fit the 9/17 ID x 3/4" OD sleave onto the stock Yamaha modified shaft (cut off end). The pillow block is 3/4" ID and pulley hub is 3/4" also. I tilted in the angle of the differential to "tuck in" motor, belt and pullies to be mounted on the rear axel as a unit, flexing with the suspension.
 

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My HSG alternator/starter arrived!
$94 to my door with taxes and shipping! Looks pretty clean, started investigating the design. I see that it is a BLDC motor, no rotor windings and a reluctor position sensor that I have no idea how to use or wire into with the Curtis controller. Run Alternator sensorless ? Could I use my own custom hall sensor board to bolt onto the alternator and use the magnetic center already on the shaft? use original outer coils and rewire it into the Curtis controller somehow. This is new ground for me, no idea how to move forward. I still have the pully system and Alt mount to worry about in the meantime. Somebody must have some ideas to think about or have solved this question in their own design

Stephen
 

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Rotating the pulley I feel "notchiness" not very strong, but you do know it's there.
 

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Found out more about the HSG Alter/Starter, it's 6 pole design
 

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Position sensor update:

I might be able to use the resolver if I convert the signals to digital "Quadature" output, some interesting reading:

http://elmoto.net/archive/index.php/t-2676.html

eAssist AC Induction Motor [Archive] - ElMoto.net - the electric motorcycle forum
I stumbled across this motor about a week ago. The OSU EcoCAR team has the engine out of the Malibu Hybrid Vehicle that they are using for the next build and I noticed it had the BAS (Belt Alternator Starter) motor on it. I didn't know much about it so I did a bit of research. The basics...
elmoto.net

"Curtis only supports quadrature encoder as they only support induction motor. As chris
rms said earlier, it is a resolver, not an encoder. They probably used a resolver because it is more tolerant of heat and vibration than an encoder - important for something strapped to the side of an ICE. I am not sure what the model of it is, but I would guess that the black and beige wires are + and - Excitation for the rotor, and the other 4 are the + and - sin and cos signals coming from the stator. Almost all resolvers have 6 leads. We can use voltmeter to ring out the leads and determine which 3 pairs of wire are circuits. Then record the resistance of each circuit. The Cos and Sin circuit will have the same resistance, so the circuit with the different resistance will be our excitation circuit. We will need to figure out what the voltage and frequency the excitation needs, is it labeled with anything (I haven't opened my motor up yet)? Most resolvers are between 4-6V at 3-10KHz."

Stephen
 
Resolver information:

file:///C:/Users/stevon/Documents/Projects%20All/ATV%20to%20Electric%20Conversion/Controllers/1507N9EJ%20Resover%20Document%20Explanation.pdf

and:

http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ResolverToQuadratureConverter
 
another try:
 

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jambuilderr said:
i Have 3 of these on the floor in my basement looking at me .

That's nice.
If you have the means and the time, maybe you could help us learn more about them, i'd love to hear more about it
 
I bought 2 of these as well, I'll do a test around Christmastime with a 24S li-ion battery with a sensorless controller.
 
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