Ninja 250 "Clone" Made in China

[Dui, ni shuo de dui]

Good news: my PCB arrived!

It was missing a few through hole components, because I chose to solder them myself to save a little bit money.
I had to make two since it was the minimum order quantity, but that's no problem, this way I have one spare.

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The first test revealed that everything worked well... except for the peltier module (which is kinda the whole point of this thing in the first place).
But lucky for me, it was an easy fix:

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Second test:

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Everything's working, Alleluia!
I just need to find a 10 amps fuse, the 1amp one didn't stand a chance, the Peltier modules use 6Amps at startup and settle at 4 amps after a while, it burned instantly.

Then I could finally tidy up all the wiring:

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Also printed and installed the last internal plastic cover. It was a bit difficult to design, but it seems to work just fine. It features a system to push the battery forward, so that it will be compressed onto the front plate, this way the battery should be firmly secured. I still have to print this pusher part, it will fit in the recess you can see in the center. Now most of the hard work should be done on the battery box:

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I then couldn't resist putting back the cover, wire everything properly, give it a test and of course take some beauty shots:

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I think it looks super nice, too bad it won't be visible at all once the box will be sealed. All this time and effort and no one will ever know it

There are still lots of things to be done, but hopefully everything should start getting easier. I still have to:
-install the aerogel sheets
-sand all the box to make it super smooth before the final clear coat
-drill holes for the battery power cable
-Make sure the battery fits well and that I can pass the balancing wires to the BMS box. They might be a tad too short so it's likely I'll have to make them longer.
-Paint the BMS box
Maybe then I'll be able to reinstall everything back in the frame. I hope it'll be soon!

[dominik h]

... too bad it won't be visible at all once the box will be sealed. All this time and effort and no one will ever know it

You know it´s there and you know it works well, that is worth every effort.

I like your build threads and your builds , lots of good ideas and everything is clean and super tidy.

[Elektrosherpa]

Great work, as we are used to see from you

I think it looks super nice, too bad it won't be visible at all once the box will be sealed. All this time and effort and no one will ever know it

Why not make a new transparent cover , e.g. from Macrolon/Plexiglas ?

[Dui, ni shuo de dui]

Thanks for the kind words guys, much appreciated !

Why not make a new transparent cover , e.g. from Macrolon/Plexiglas ?

It would be fun to have one transparent cover, but I still have to add the insulation sheets, so even though the cover might be transparent I wouldn't be able to see through the insulation anyway

[tylerwatts]

Beautiful work, inside and out!

cheers
Tyler

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

Damn that box is cool. How are the Peltier modules going to cool the batteries again? Are they like, physically touching the sides of each cell or are they cooling the chamber itself?

[Dui, ni shuo de dui]

Thanks man!
The peltier just cool or heat the air around the battery, kinda the same way stuff is cooled in a fridge.

[Dui, ni shuo de dui]

Some more progress and also a nice surprize:

So, first I worked on finishing my battery box.
First thing I've done was to try fitting the aerogel sheets, to see if the battery would still fit. Well it did fit just right, so no problem!

So now I know that the battery can still be installed, It is time to work on the finishing touches. I had to sand the box again with 80, 360 and 600 grit paper to get it as smooth as possible:

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Then a few layers of 2K clear coat:

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Took this opportunity to re clear coat all the other carbon parts too:

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So now all I have to do is to reinstall everything inside the box, then make some holes for the main power cables and finally reinstall everything back into the frame. Hopefully it shouldn't take long, but there's always a ton of little stuff to do.

Anyway, now to the big surprise:
TADAAAAAAAA:

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Isn't it a gorgeous sight?

So what are those? Well the controller is an insane Nanjing Fardrive 841800, but it's not your standard 841800. This one is supposedly capable of drawing 1300 Amps from the battery(!!!) and delivering 1800Amps at the phases. Crazy stuff. It's a special "track" version of the 841800, the regular one is limited to around 800 amps battery side. I bought it second hand for a good price but it's basically brand new.
But how come there's this motor on the picture? Well, crazy story but the person who sold me the controller just gave it to me. I still can't believe it, that was crazy generous.
This motor is the one you'll find on the Zero bikes. It's an extremely powerful motor, even capable of powering a car (see Rich rebuild's electric hot rod on youtube if you don't know what I'm talking about, it's pretty neat). This thing is no joke!

So... what's the plan then?
Well the long term plan is to install this controller on this motorcycle. But first I'll test it on the red motorcycle, to make sure everything works properly since both bikes are pretty much the same and the red one is already running.

About the motor, I wish I could install it on either one of the bikes, but that would need A LOT of very huge mods to the frame, the battery box, the swingarm, etc. It's just way too much work, maybe I would have considered installing it on the black bike if I got it earlier, but now that I've finished all the frame and the battery box I just can't throw all of this work away and start again. So right now the plan is to keep this motor for a future build. I'm thinking of building a go kart, just need to check first if this could be a reasonable project, I obviously cant ride a go kart on the streets so I need to know how much would it cost to ride it on a real circuit and under what conditions. I hope the fees aren't too crazy.
Anyway that's not for today, let's focus on finishing the battery box and testing this controller!

[j bjork]

Cool, a zero motor in china. That must be unusual?
What is it, 75-7?
People search for years for these motors (at least if you are not in USA), and you get one for free

[Dui, ni shuo de dui]

Cool, a zero motor in china. That must be unusual?
What is it, 75-7?
People search for years for these motors (at least if you are not in USA), and you get one for free

I'm not sure which one it is, but I just learned a few minutes ago that this controler can only work with sin/cos encoders... This motor has those, but obviously my hub doesn't. So that's a huge bummer, I don't know what to do now.

The controller won't work with my hub unless I find some kind of way to convert it to an encoder system.... but then which encoder? where to position it exactly? No idea. I haven't seen anyone doing that before.

The other solution is, obviously, to use the zero motor... but then I need to basically scrap everything I've done over the past months, which I really don't want to. I would have to find some kind of way to fit the motor in my frame, which would mean a custom swingarm, extensive modifications to the frame.... I might consider it if there's a way to do that without having to make a new battery enclosure (spent so much time on it I just don't want to throw it away).... but even then it's a huge, huge task.

Any help or suggestion would be very welcome here

[Elektrosherpa]

I'm not sure which one it is, but I just learned a few minutes ago that this controler can only work with sin/cos encoders... This motor has those, but obviously my hub doesn't. So that's a huge bummer, I don't know what to do now.
....
Any help or suggestion would be very welcome here

Well... what about starting a new build?
I would enjoy reading about a new project.
I would not tear the existing ones apart...

You have already 2 electric motorbikes, so what would be the problem with a third one?

And if three were too many- I guess you could always sell one of them.

[John_Doe]

Just buy/build a 4th bike

Love to read about your projects
Long-time lurker here, even considering starting a project by myself at some point.

[j bjork]

Put the motor and controller on the shelf for now, I really doubt you have any use for 1800pA on that hub anyway.
Better use for them on another project.
I wonder how the hub will like the 900pA from the APT..

[tylerwatts]

DUI great find of that motor!

If a new build isn't possible, best option that I suggest is do not modify the bike/frame etc. Build a longer swingarm and mount the motor directly onto the swing arm as close to the pivot as possible. Then the arm should not be too long and weight is minimal and far better than the hub motor. But need a bigger wheel and excellent brakes because that think will burn rubber and do wheelies like crazy with so much power.

Can you see any name plate or motor code on the motor to help us see what size it is? Regardless it is plenty and more than you currently have in performance so just need to know how many amps your battery can feed that monster controller.

Wow, you can see we are all quite envious of you having such cool parts now! On second thought, maybe a 250cc bike size is just not enough for so much performance and you should build a sports bike next, like R1 size. Do you know Ripperton and his R1 build in Australia? That's what I'm thinking you will do well at with this motor/controller.

Or like the guys said, convert a car next with that 1300amp monster! Awesome

cheers
Tyler

[Elektrosherpa]

Just got another idea:
Someone wrote here about trying to convert a Honda Goldwing-
this might be a buyer for this motor if you dont need it.

[Dui, ni shuo de dui]

Haha, thanks guys, some good suggestions here!
I thought long and hard about all that, took many measurements... but unfortunately that wouldn't be possible to just drop this motor in the frame. I would not only need to build a custom swing arm, but I would also need ot make some big changes to the frame geometry. Also, you've all seen how this frame has been made from the factory... I don't think this would be wise to drop such insane power onto it. The only thing I believe is up to the task are the brakes and maybe the front fork.

So, after all these considerations, I had to contact the seller and tell him I couldn't use the controller, so I'd return it.
Well this guy's just amazing, he refunded my money in a blink of an eye even though I didn't ask for it and haven't send the controller back yet, and even told me I could keep the motor
I'm still shocked by this incredible generosity, I've got no word. Awesome dude

Soooo... What's the plan then? Well I still have the APT controller, as bjork rightly said. So I'll follow the original plan and test it, it's not a weak controller either, just very, very heavy. I'll finish building this bike the way it was intended before all these events took place. I still can find another Fardrive later if the APT doesn't work well, so no worries.

As for the zero motor, I'll make something with it for sure, I dreamed of such motor for a long time already. But I'm not sure yet what project I'll do. I'd love to make a super powerful go kart, and my ultimate dream has always been to make my own airplane. I suppose this motor could totally power a small electric plane. But this project won't be for tomorrow that's for sure, I've got no place I could fly nor store a plane

I could also do another bike, maybe some kind of supermot/dirt bike, that could be a fun project. In anycase, whatever the project will be, I'll try to make a modular system so I can take the motor in and out quickly to power different stuff.
But I'm getting ahead of myself, let's finish this project first before planing the next one!

[john61ct]

I'm shopping for a place to move to

any chance I could be your neighbor pool resources, pick your brains?

[tylerwatts]

Nice update, cool guy also! Must stay in contact with him!

I agree frame is not up to that performance.

How about ultralight Carbon Fibre airplane

cheers
Tyler

[Dui, ni shuo de dui]

How about ultralight Carbon Fibre airplane

Hahah, the answer is NO. Working with carbon fiber is really a pain, I wouldn't want to make a whole airplane with it, that would be a nightmare

But I'd like to make one out of foam, just like Peter Sripol did (this video is amazing, well worth watching if you haven't seen it already):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNSN6qet1kE

Simple, cheap, seems to work very well. I'd really love trying that someday. But that won't be for a near future, I would need lots of space to do that.

Anyway, still trying to finish my battery box.
I've added the aerogel sheets. The box is a sandwich of many materials:
-Carbon Fiber
-One layer of kapton to electrically insulate and provide a slight waterproofing
-Some 3M spray glue
-The aerogel sheets
-Some more 3M spray glue, this is to hopefully trap the aerogel dust, this thing creates lots of dust otherwise
-Another few layers of kapton tape, to contain the dust and add more water resistance
-Then finally the 3D printed parts.
So as you can see, that's many layers in a very tight space.

Some pics while installing these:

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Also made the holes for the main power wires.

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Finally I tried the first actual fit of the battery..... And that when things got wrong.
I quickly realised that the battery didn't fit. Well, it turned out that for some reason I still don't understand the actual battery is slightly bigger than the mockup I printed. I was dead sure it was the opposite (wouldn't make any sense to make the mockup smaller than the actual thing). I must have messed some measurements.

So.... Well I had to redesign and reprint all the internal plastic parts. I've already redesigned everything and thanks to my super fast printer I shall have all the parts printed today or tomorrow. So that shouldn't be too much of an issue, just losing a day or two of work.

I'll also have to redo all the balancing wires, there's currently no way for me to install the battery because those wires are too short and get out of he battery from a spot that isn't really convenient. But I knew I'd have to do that eventually so that's no biggie.

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[tylerwatts]

Forgive me Dui, what is the purpose of the internal printed parts? Could the box not be slightly smaller (no don't remake it )?

Also is it cold where you live, why so much insulation for the battery, again seems much bigger box than the battery requires.

cheers
Tyler

[Dui, ni shuo de dui]

Forgive me Dui, what is the purpose of the internal printed parts? Could the box not be slightly smaller

Maybe I haven't been very clear, it gets a little bit confusing.
The carbon box size itself is fine, it used to fit in the frame and the battery used to fit in there for years, no issue with that.
But now, I've added lots of things inside the box, so the battery itelf could not get inside this box anymore.

The printed parts serve many purposes:
-Securing the battery so it won't be able to move around
-Hide and protect the wiring
-Provide some anchoring spots for the temperature/humidity sensors
-Protect the aerogel insulator sheets
-create some empty spaces for air to circulate around the battery: the whole air conditioning system relies on air circulating all around the battery, and for that you need to allow air to flow all around to maximize the exchange surface. This was actually one of the biggest challenge
-Provide some solid spots for attaching the carbon box to the bike's frame
-Make installing and removing the battery an easy task, instead of the horrible nightmare it used to be.

So as you can see, that's a whole lot of purposes for these things. But what made that even more difficult is that the space available is rather small since I couldn't make the carbon box any bigger, so everything had to fit in there.

This is the 3D view of these parts, as you can see they are a little bit complex, each of the shapes you see has its purpose. Then you add the insulation, the wiring, etc, it gets very crowded.

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Also is it cold where you live, why so much insulation for the battery, again seems much bigger box than the battery requires.

It is relatively cold in winter (from 0 to 10 degreeC) and also quite hot in summer (it can easily reach 40 degreeC). Cold weather isn't great for the battery health and isn't great for battery performance either. Hot weather isn't too much of an issue in my case, but it might be a different story with the APT controller. In any case, a stable temperature is always better.
I could live without it, but I'd prefer to have it, especially since this bike is my daily, it will face all kind of weather.

Anyway, I'm pleased to say that this is now a problem of the past!
I've reprinted all the parts already and now the battery fits perfectly:

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It was quite a bit of work to get there, first I had to re print all the parts, obviously, but also I had to rebuild part of the BMS balancing wires, in order to make them leave the battery from an other spot, now they get out from the side instead of from the top:

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This was very important because as you can imagine it is extremely tight in there, so there's just no way for me to fit my hand inside when the battery is installed. So the only way for me to connect the BMS wires to the BMS is to have them in place BEFORE the battery goes into the box. Easy to say, but it was very hard to find a solution for that, I scratched my head for a whole month on this issue.

Anyway, my solution seem to work just great. Installing the battery in the box took me less than 30 seconds, great success! It used to take me litterally 15-20 minutes of very hard work to do the same task before. That's great news, it will make servicing the battery a much easier task in the future. Getting the battery in and out used to be so difficult it was the whole reason why I postponed my battery repair for a year in the first place.

The BMS wires are going to the BMS box through a series of holes and conduits, then I can just plug them to the BMS as usual, makes for a relatively clean wiring inside the enclosure so far:

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This was the last difficult step to do. Now basically all the hard work is done, Yay!
I just have to do the finishing touches: reinstall the air conditioning system, do the waterproofing, finish the BMS wiring for the optional functions (temp sensors, screen, etc), print a last version of the BMS enclosure, paint it and then It'll be time to reinstall all of this into the frame!
Can't wait to get the bike running again!

[tylerwatts]

Oh of course air cooling is key. Great to see it went together so well! Looking forward to seeing it in the bike again.

cheers
Tyler

[Dui, ni shuo de dui]

Not a lot of progress these days, but at least some
I really wanted to use wrinkle paint on the BMS box, but unfortunately all my attempts failed... The reason is that this paint needs to be baked, but plastic desn't really like the head and it just deforms and warps too much. Too bad because I quite liked the texture:

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So now the plan will be to paint it with regular paint instead.

I worked on the power wiring:

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Also wired the BMS cooling fans and the switches:

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Finally, printed a new lid to replace the other one I destroyed in the oven. Also received my new red switch to replace the green one:

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It's almost finished now. What I have to do is to re print the BMS enclosure because I've made some slight design changes, make the BMS screen wiring, finish the seals design to make sure no water can enter through the holes at the top. And also paint the enclosure, obviously.
I wish it was a bit faster, but I'm close now!

[Elektrosherpa]

That looks pretty good!

The red cover of the ANT BMS-did you print that yourself?

I am asking, because the ANT BMS you recommended in my build thread was "naked"
(and that is what I need, because it must fit into the battery case).

By the way:
you do not seem to read in my thread anymore?
I have asked you a question there, about the App for the ANT BMS...
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=110352&p=1702592#p1702592

[tylerwatts]

Looking great Dui, shame the paint couldn't stick to the plastic.

cheers
Tyler