Calling all battery surgeons! Have you seen this?

SwampDonkey

100 W
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
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227
I have a 13S 4p pack with an unbalanced bank of cells. I pulled it off the charger and read 4.18 for 13 of the 4-cell banks, and 4.36 (!) on one bank. Ive searched the net, and most related issues seem to be opposite of mine, a straggler bank LOWER than the rest. These are salvaged cells, so actual capacity is unknown, but they're all rated the same.

Could it be a bad cell? Lowering overall capacity of that particular bank and therefore "topping off" faster than the rest? Could it be a difference in internal resistance, of one or all cells in the bank?

Thank ya much!
 
why has your BMS not cut off the charger at 4.2?
 
Yeah I would wonder that tooo. Why is it going past 4.2V? Should not absolutely. What are you using to check voltages? A multimeter?

Also, if you have 13 reading good, but one reading over, is that not a 14s battery? Or a typo?

Could be a lower capacity group in the string that is making the rest not "top up". i have seen that. The others get the juice too then, and that might have overcharged the othere groups? IDk.
 
ps: DISCHARGE THE BANK ASAP.
 
DogDipstick said:
Yeah I would wonder that tooo. Why is it going past 4.2V? Should not absolutely. What are you using to check voltages? A multimeter?

Also, if you have 13 reading good, but one reading over, is that not a 14s battery? Or a typo?

Could be a lower capacity group in the string that is making the rest not "top up". i have seen that. The others get the juice too then, and that might have overcharged the othere groups? IDk.

No, thats correct. I used a UNI-T voltmeter from Luna actually I have no idea why the BMS didnt cut off. It was one of those sealed, red "waterproof" BMS's sold on Ebay and Alibaba. And yes, its 12 reading good, one far too high. Whoops.
 
I just discharged the "high" cells to 4.2, then connected the charger. Now the cells that were in spec measure 4.28 to 4.5V lol, aw man. Is my BMS just not chooching or what?
 
Your BMS is ruining your pack, I would consider all those cells suspect and definitely damaged at this point.
 
flat tire said:
Your BMS is ruining your pack, I would consider all those cells suspect and definitely damaged at this point.

Oh I dont doubt it. Im really curious as how this could have happened.
 
rip out the bms and try again.

the reason is simple: its a shit bms.
 
The pack is basically s***. Only charged in BBQ do not leave in garage to not leave the path in your bedroom and do not leave it you may take it inside and leave the pack in the fireplace but that's about it.
 
I think I read you used used cells and made a battery pack if they're mismatched they will never match if they are mismatched they connect match again on Match sales on men's capability on Match app draw could be dangerous
 
Sounds like the battery in your multimeter is low. This causes voltages to read high.

If not, then something is seriously wrong with both your charger and your battery, because if you had all the banks at 4.3-4.5v (except one) then the whole battery would read over 61V, which means your charger is set to the wrong voltage for the pack as well, and is forcing the overcharge and the BMS is allowing it.
 
amberwolf said:
Sounds like the battery in your multimeter is low. This causes voltages to read high.

If not, then something is seriously wrong with both your charger and your battery, because if you had all the banks at 4.3-4.5v (except one) then the whole battery would read over 61V, which means your charger is set to the wrong voltage for the pack as well, and is forcing the overcharge and the BMS is allowing it.

I thought the same thing, so I checked with my backup, and grabbed a fresh battery. The admittedly cheap AF charger is putting out 58.8V, though its marked as "48V 20Ah" along with a bunch of Chinese characters. It looks like the BMS allows the battery to charge to the full voltage of the charger, then bleeds down cells that are too high. It gets pretty warm during charging. Another charger I have stops at 54V.

So we had 2 failures here. The BMS and the charger. Im lucky like that.
 
58.8V is the final charge voltage for 14S "52V" lithium ion batteries, but it's also the final charge voltage for 16S "48V" LiFePO4 batteries.

I have had one misbehaving battery exhibit a higher voltage on one cell, but that turned out to be caused by a broken sense lead to that cell.
 
When chasing the cell voltage of each cell is best break out the pencil and paper and write it down.
1. 3.88v


14. Xxx. Volt
Or ect. And. Post.
 
999zip999 said:
When chasing the cell voltage of each cell is best break out the pencil and paper and write it down.
1. 3.88v


14. Xxx. Volt
Or ect. And. Post.

Will do. Right now I have it running a cyclone 3000W motor until it gets down to 40V or so. After that Im going to check group voltages again (and post them) before charging with another (proven 54V max) charger.
 
SwampDonkey said:
I thought the same thing, so I checked with my backup, and grabbed a fresh battery.
Backup what?

Fresh ebike battery? Or battery for meter?

It's very important to be absolutely clear when saying what you are doing to troubleshoot, or we can't know what you're doing so we can help, without asking a lot of questions (which most people won't answer, so we cna't really help them).


The admittedly cheap AF charger is putting out 58.8V, though its marked as "48V 20Ah"

Well, a charger hasn't got an Ah rating, so no idea what that means.

But a 58.8V final votlage would be correct for a 14s "52v" pack (sometimes called 48v).

So you should re-measure all your cells, right now, and list them here starting with most negative, up to most positive, because it is impossible for them all to be as high as you say, if the charger itself is not that high a voltage--the voltage has to come from somewhere.


If you have more than one voltmeter, I strongly recommend measuring once with one of htem, then redo the measurements with the other. They should be very close; if there is a significant difference then one of the meters is problematic (usually it's battery is low). You may need a third meter to see which one is closer to it.

It looks like the BMS allows the battery to charge to the full voltage of the charger, then bleeds down cells that are too high. It gets pretty warm during charging.

If the pack is well balanced, then it does not need to bleed any cells at all, the final cell votlage would all be equal, and total up to the same as the charger voltage.

But the warm part is normal, if it is balancing.

IF the charger were too high a voltage, the BMS would (if working correctly) shut off charge current as soon as the first cell reached the HVC point, which is usually 4.2v for most non-LiFePO4 / non-LTO chemistries (except NMC that is usually 4.15v). So even a defective charger wouldn't be able to overcharge a battery with a working BMS.


Another charger I have stops at 54V.
THat is completely normal for a 13s pack (48v).


So we had 2 failures here. The BMS and the charger. I
We actually don't know if you have had ANY failures yet.

Recheck all the cell voltages, and list htem all here, from most negative first, to most positive.

Then run the pack down a fair bit, then remeasure all the cells and list them here. If possible, measure *during* the discharge as well.

Then put the pack back on the charger, and remeasure all the cells and list htem here, *while it is charging*, immediately after starting the charge.

Keep remeasuring and listing htem here every few minutes during the charge process.

When the charger first shuts off remeasure them and list tehm here again.

Repeat during balancing, as the cahrger restarts and shuts down again.

Then when the charger has finished charging and balancing, disconnect it, and leave the battery disconnected from any loads. Wait a day, then remeasure and list here again.


Doing these steps is necessary to knwo which, if any, cells are higher internal resistance than others, and greater or lesser capacity than ohters. It will also test the BMS for leaky channels draining cells, or BMS channels that are not correctly balancing cells.

If you don'[t do this, you wont' know what is actually wrong with the battery, if anything--you'll simply be guessing based on what seems to be impossible information (that is probably coming from a problematic voltmeter, test leads or connection problems).
 
Till you do chase this down, I hope you are charging it outside. Sounds like if you do have a problem, it could lead to an overcharged cell to the point the pack catches fire.

Perhaps the bms did stop the charge, before fire, but then failed to discharge the group back to 4.2v?


Id be seriously keeping an eye on that bms from now on. If you want to really watch it, you need a pair of jst plugs on the pack, attached to the balance wires. Then you can watch each group charge with cellog 8's or other devices. Otherwise, follow the advice above, checking all groups as it discharges, and re charges. See which groups have good capacity, and which do not.


You can start by watching just that one group as the charge finishes, and see if the bms is doing nothing, or working like it should. It should stop soon after that group reaches 4.2v, then discharge it back to 4.2v. You can watch that happen with your voltmeter. Rig one with alligator clips, or other means of making a contact for the whole time it charges. Then later, do as AW said, watching all the groups go through the cycle.

BTW, chances are, that group is not your low capacity group. But it might not be the lowest, if your bms is working on the other channels. Watching all the groups as they charge can tell you which is lowest capacity. it will fill first, and be the one the bms keeps draining back down as you force the pack to fully balance with repeated top offs to the charge. But if your bms is not draining a group back to 4.2v, then you have a real problem, that will burn your house down.
 
Backup what?

Fresh ebike battery? Or battery for meter?

Backup meter. And a new battery in the primary one to make sure the readings agree.

Well, a charger hasn't got an Ah rating, so no idea what that means.

This one does. Behold! (pics attached)

If the pack is well balanced, then it does not need to bleed any cells at all, the final cell votlage would all be equal, and total up to the same as the charger voltage.

The cell groups were upwards of 4.5V each. The pack will not be reused after this so Im just watching what it does at this point. Its bleeding the cells down to 4.18V, which is what I want to see. Its looking like the charger was for Lifepo4 16S packs, but its been used on another 48V pack with no issues. This BMS just does not prevent overvolting.


V after 1st charging:
1. 4.49 (!)
2. 4.40
3. 4.41
4. 4.41
4. 4.39
5. 4.40
6. 4.37
7. 4.41
8. 4.42
9. 4.38
10. 4.38
11. 4.41
12. 4.40
13. 4.41

Groups 1 and 8 were directly wired to a large DC servo to balance them with the others. Then the whole pack was put on an upturned cyclone-equipped bike and run until total voltage was low enough to try recharging. Groups were:

1. 3.47
2.3.49
3.3.55
4.3.58
5.3.54
6.3.58
7.3.54
8.3.52
9.3.55
10.3.58
11.3.32
12.3.54
13.3.56

Now they've bled down to:

1. 4.24
2. 4.15
3. 4.18
4. 4.21
5. 4.18
6. 4.22
7. 4.18
8. 4.21
9. 4.18
10. 4.20
11. 4.17
12. 4.15
13. 4.19


BMS is still warm as it continues to bleed down the pack.
 

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dogman dan said:
Till you do chase this down, I hope you are charging it outside. Sounds like if you do have a problem, it could lead to an overcharged cell to the point the pack catches fire.

Perhaps the bms did stop the charge, before fire, but then failed to discharge the group back to 4.2v?


Id be seriously keeping an eye on that bms from now on. If you want to really watch it, you need a pair of jst plugs on the pack, attached to the balance wires. Then you can watch each group charge with cellog 8's or other devices. Otherwise, follow the advice above, checking all groups as it discharges, and re charges. See which groups have good capacity, and which do not.


You can start by watching just that one group as the charge finishes, and see if the bms is doing nothing, or working like it should. It should stop soon after that group reaches 4.2v, then discharge it back to 4.2v. You can watch that happen with your voltmeter. Rig one with alligator clips, or other means of making a contact for the whole time it charges. Then later, do as AW said, watching all the groups go through the cycle.

BTW, chances are, that group is not your low capacity group. But it might not be the lowest, if your bms is working on the other channels. Watching all the groups as they charge can tell you which is lowest capacity. it will fill first, and be the one the bms keeps draining back down as you force the pack to fully balance with repeated top offs to the charge. But if your bms is not draining a group back to 4.2v, then you have a real problem, that will burn your house down.

For sure. Its in the garage with the gimp.

I'll keep tabs on it for now. Its just kind of an experiment at this point. I have a "universal" charger (adjustable cc/cv power supply) I will use to bring it back up to 54V after I drain it down a second time. I can manipulate the voltage of individual groups by running a large DC motor with them, so I'll equalize the groups and go from there.
 
SwampDonkey said:
Well, a charger hasn't got an Ah rating, so no idea what that means.

This one does. Behold! (pics attached)
What I mean is, that whatever they put on there is meaningless, because a charger does not have a capacity, and that's what Ah is--capacity.

They probably put it on there to "sound fancy" or something.

There is a *slight* chance that they put it on there to match the battery pack it was sold with, if they indeed do match. But it still doesn't actually mean anything.


The measurements are very helpful--thank you for doing them. The cells appear healthy, except for the overcharge. :( It is *possible* that the pack might still be safe to use...but I would always charge it and keep it outside where it is away from anything you care about. ;) If the garage is attached to or near the house, or if there's anything in the garage you care about....


The cell groups were upwards of 4.5V each.
Then this means the charger voltage must be at least a whole cell's worth higher than the pack is supposed to have (57.5V or more), which is dangerous exactly for what has apparently occured to this pack. :(


Its looking like the charger was for Lifepo4 16S packs, but its been used on another 48V pack with no issues.
If by "48v" you mean 13s, like this one, instead of 14s (52v), then be careful, because if anything goes wrong with the BMS on that pack, it too will get it's cells overcharged.

If the charger has potentiometers inside, you can check for the voltage pot and adjust it down to what the pack should actually have. There are a number of threads and posts about adjusting charger voltage, that may help you find the right one without messing up the charger.




This BMS just does not prevent overvolting.
What I suspect is that either

--the BMS has a separate charge and discharge port but you're actually charging thru the discharge port (which means the BMS cannot shutoff charging--only the charge port can block charge current, only the discharge port can block discharge current, in a separate-port BMS. A common-port BMS can block either way or both at the same time on the one port),

or

--the BMS's charge fets are stuck on, and are unable to shutoff charging (either they're shorted, or something is wrong with the driving electronics that control them from the voltage sense lines on the cell groups).


The good news is the BMS is otherwise doing the job it's supposed to...so if the charger was not higher than full 13s pack voltage you'd probably never have known it coudln't shut charge off. :/ (at least not until the pack gets old and worn and doesn't stay relatively balanced).
 
What I mean is, that whatever they put on there is meaningless, because a charger does not have a capacity, and that's what Ah is--capacity.

They probably put it on there to "sound fancy" or something.

Right on. Its definitely not a high end unit. And I do think it originally came with a battery of that capacity. I believe "Ah" is the number of amps a battery can provide for 1 hour at a given voltage, correct?


If by "48v" you mean 13s, like this one, instead of 14s (52v), then be careful, because if anything goes wrong with the BMS on that pack, it too will get it's cells overcharged.

If the charger has potentiometers inside, you can check for the voltage pot and adjust it down to what the pack should actually have. There are a number of threads and posts about adjusting charger voltage, that may help you find the right one without messing up the charger.

Right. Oddly enough the battery that went with this had a 16S BMS. Many things unusual about this pack now that I think about it. It used low output (1500mAh 3A discharge) orange 18650 cells in a 16S 8P configuration. The BMS itself is pretty impressive though. Its fairly large, black, and has huge traces covered in loads of solder, making me think its capable of very high current. It has the word 'SIGNALAB" on the underside in white lettering.

--the BMS has a separate charge and discharge port but you're actually charging thru the discharge port (which means the BMS cannot shutoff charging--only the charge port can block charge current, only the discharge port can block discharge current, in a separate-port BMS. A common-port BMS can block either way or both at the same time on the one port),

This was a common port "waterproof" BMS I picked up on Ebay. Just two leads (B- and P-) so wiring it was pretty straight forwars once I understood how the thing actually worked.
 
SwampDonkey said:
I believe "Ah" is the number of amps a battery can provide for 1 hour at a given voltage, correct?
tyes. its a measure of capacity. a is a measure o fcurrent.



Oddly enough the battery that went with this had a 16S BMS. Many things unusual about this pack now that I think about it. It used low output (1500mAh 3A discharge) orange 18650 cells in a 16S 8P configuration. The BMS itself is pretty impressive though. Its fairly large, black, and has huge traces covered in loads of solder, making me think its capable of very high current. It has the word 'SIGNALAB" on the underside in white lettering.
that bms is common to ping and other lifepo4 packs you'll find the word in a lto of post shere on es. 16s at 48v is lifepo4 which only charges to 3.6v cell. 58v ish full pack.
 
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