Tesla/Dahn Lithium-NMC532/AG chemistry

They have definitely reduced the amount of cobalt per battery volume already. The chemistry has sometimes been called NCM, and now NMC. the difference is that the "C" is now the third added element by weight, and it used to be the second.

The 532 number means
0.5 nickel
0.3 manganese
0.2 cobalt

I suspect that Tesla will aggressively pursue the recycling and reclamation of the cobalt in expended Tesla cells. Their original packs have an 8-year warranty, and if the 2020 Teslas have this new tweak in the chemistry that may double that, then cobalt supplies might not become the limiting factor that it was once feared.

Also, upgrading to the solid state battery (SSB) format will reduce the active material per the same range. If the SSB packs are 30% smaller, there will be 30% less cobalt per car too, when that happens...
 
battery life is still mostly impacted by DoD cycles and they are still tweakig their battery settings to this day.
the model 3 currently discharges further then the model S but is capped lower on the top end.
you can notice this as well as it is WAY more agressive in power limiting when the battery is nearly empty compared to the S.
right now the exel wizards at various tesla owners forums are calculating that the last version of the S/X battery can last 15 years at least if you keep supercharging sessions to a minimum. if you dont use supercharging at all you can get 20 years easy.

i just hope that the new generation S has the model 3 cells when they start selling the plaid 3 motor kit. putting down nearly 10.000nm of torques into some poor tires is going to be awesome.
once one of those crashes (should not take long) i can try can grab a few cells for me to test and compare them to the older cells.
 
spinningmagnets said:
They have definitely reduced the amount of cobalt per battery volume already. The chemistry has sometimes been called NCM, and now NMC. the difference is that the "C" is now the third added element by weight, and it used to be the second.

The 532 number means
0.5 nickel
0.3 manganese
0.2 cobalt
...
Click to expand...
Whilst Tesla have certainly used NMC cells in some of their storage products, all their current vehicle packs are NCA.
And from their recent announcement, i read that they are saying they are using NCA chemistry ,with an even lower cobalt content than the latest 8,1,1 NMC chemistry ?
.. ( remember also, NCA/NMC refers only to the Cathode construction )

“Cells used in Model 3 are the highest energy density cells used in any electric vehicle. We have achieved this by significantly reducing cobalt content per battery pack while increasing nickel content and still maintaining superior thermal stability. The cobalt content of our Nickel-Cobalt-Aluminum cathode chemistry is already lower than next-generation cathodes that will be made by other cell producers with a Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt ratio of 8:1:1.
Click to expand...
 
Hillhater said:
flippy said:
.......i just hope that the new generation S has the model 3 cells when they start selling the plaid 3 motor kit. putting down nearly 10.000nm of torques into some poor tires is going to be awesome.......
Click to expand...

10,000Nm ! :shock: ....that would truely be more than Awesome ! :lol:
Click to expand...
its what the new roadster is going to make on the base model and the new 3 motor S is getting the same "plaid" powertrain as the roadster. they just ran a modified prototype S over the nurburgring to beat the electric porsche and it beat it hand down, and the porsche need a dual speed gearbox, the tesla is direct drive.
fun fact: i drove a tesla semi a few months ago and it is even more nuts. 0-100 in under 5 seconds while being severly traction limited. it has the same motors as the model 3, just a couple more as it has probably 900bhp.
 
Hillhater said:
flippy said:
.......i just hope that the new generation S has the model 3 cells when they start selling the plaid 3 motor kit. putting down nearly 10.000nm of torques into some poor tires is going to be awesome.......
Click to expand...

10,000Nm ! :shock: ....that would truely be more than Awesome ! :lol:
Click to expand...

Pffff rediculous. Why not make a cheap eurobox with 70kW (peak power) and 500km range ? Much more usefull and effective for getting people in electric cars. All this high tech gadgetry and high performance just makes the cars too expensive and out of reach for most people.
 
Lebowski said:
Pffff rediculous. Why not make a cheap eurobox with 70kW (peak power) and 500km range ? Much more usefull and effective for getting people in electric cars. All this high tech gadgetry and high performance just makes the cars too expensive and out of reach for most people.
Click to expand...
because nobody is going to buy a 50k toyota aygo.
batteries is the most expensive thing and pushing such a huge amount of batteries is expensive. and if you have to spend a lot of money then why spend it on a little ecobox when you can buy a model 3 for less money?
and why would tesla limit power when you have the capacity?

still: 500km range is useless and totally not needed when you can recharge at 1200km/h at a supercharger. range is fine when you can drive longer then your bladder can hold.
 
Hillhater said:
flippy said:
.......i just hope that the new generation S has the model 3 cells when they start selling the plaid 3 motor kit. putting down nearly 10.000nm of torques into some poor tires is going to be awesome.......
Click to expand...

10,000Nm ! :shock: ....that would truely be more than Awesome ! :lol:
Click to expand...

Actually it is not extraordinary high number. It is of course a torque on wheels. And so when we calculate with gear ratio of ca 9.7:1 it is "only" ca 350 Nm per motor (for 3 motor drivetrain). For comparison New Nissan Leaf motor have ca 320 Nm. Also for the new roadster there were announced also two-speed gearboxes (for achieving the insane max. speed of 250 mph) And so the first gear ratio will be most probably designed for 0-60 mph sprint and so it can have higher gear ratio like 12:1.And it is possible that this experimental Tesla Model S with "Plaid" drivetrain already have two-stage geaboxes like Taycan.
 
flippy said:
Lebowski said:
Pffff rediculous. Why not make a cheap eurobox with 70kW (peak power) and 500km range ? Much more usefull and effective for getting people in electric cars. All this high tech gadgetry and high performance just makes the cars too expensive and out of reach for most people.
Click to expand...
because nobody is going to buy a 50k VW up.
batteries is the most expensive thing and pushing such a huge amount of batteries is expensive. and if you have to spend a lot of money then why spend it on a little ecobox when you can buy a model 3 for less money?
and why would tesla limit power when you have the capacity?

still: 500km range is useless and totally not needed when you can recharge at 1200km/h at a supercharger. range is fine when you can drive longer then your bladder can hold.
Click to expand...

Skoda is bringing out an electric citigo, should cost less than 20000 (still way too high as the gas version is around 10000). 81hp motor and 36kWh batteries. Still too expensive but much better than 10000Nm etc etc

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/skoda/citigo/99236/all-electric-skoda-citigo-e-iv-hits-frankfurt-with-165-mile-range
 
Lebowski said:
Skoda is bringing out an electric citigo, should cost less than 20000 (still way too high as the gas version is around 10000). 81hp motor and 36kWh batteries. Still too expensive but much better than 10000Nm etc etc
Click to expand...
its also has a puny 38kWh battery. and half the range you seek. doubling the range would take 15k more. and nobody is going to pay 35k for a electric shopping cart. not to mention that most people that are looking at such a car are going to drive 500km in a single go. its a non-issue.
 
My point is not about this specific car.

My point is that everyone is building supercars with awesome power and accelleration, but what is needed is a reasonable car for the masses at low cost. I for one am tired of seeing all these fat cat playboy cars with accelleration this and a 40" screen that etc (and it can play fart noises too ! I mean how childish and useless can you get). And as a European living close to a big city I count Teslas to this category as well, since they hardly fit in the parking spots here. Finally now we are starting to see EU manufacturers get serious about normal everyday electric cars, its a pity the price is too high.
 
Pajda said:
.......
Actually it is not extraordinary high number. It is of course a torque on wheels.
Click to expand...
Yes i figured that !.....but since when did anybody quote “torque at the wheel” , for a car ? :roll:
Since, as you say, 10,000 Nm is not extraordiary.......”at the wheels”
......a showroom Corvette can beat that......with only 2 tyres driven :wink:
 
considering they use the same motors (but 4 of them) for the tesla semi that has considerably more torkes i think those ratings are not made up.
 
flippy said:
..... they just ran a modified prototype S over the nurburgring to beat the electric porsche and it beat it hand down, ....
Click to expand...
You are jumping the gun a little there...
1)..Whilst we do know it ran 3 motors and “Track” tyres, we do not know how “modified” that Tesla was, or what battery pack was used, let alone how close it was to any proposed future production model. .
2) Porsche have stated the Taycan ran in “production Turbo” spec , including tyres .
3) Tesla have not been able to post even a “unofficial” lap time ?.....
All they have said it they think it “CAN lap in 7:20” . Very different to. “It HAS lapped”
...so you cannot claim it beat anything !
And the Tesla left the track on a recovery truck !
 
musk said it ran with the new 3 motor plaid motortrain so there is that.
and they were riding it hard until it broke, wich is what you do with prototypes. if it does not break you are not pushing it hard enough. ferrari employs 1 guy that has his job of track driving ferrari's until the engine explodes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La03k7FzlZA


fun fact: it was slated to go the ring well before the porsche went just like their previous prototypes.
porsche also rented the entire track for the media and making a offical time, tesla just drives during normal opening hours with other traffic. there is videos on twitter from people that were overtaken by the prototype for days until they popped the drivetrain.
and the time is real, the ring just doesnt officiate the times as it was not a timed event like porsche did. the the official laser traps do not work during normal track days.
 
Porsche’s time for the Taycan is not an “official” time...Its just a “Porsche” timed record.
You will not find it in any official list of Nurburgring records.
“Official” times are very specific events , with full technical inspection to production specifications, video records and data logging, with all information published and available to the public.
Tesla are reported to only have run single laps between recharges...which means that they could not have run a “full lap ” since at the end of the lap they have to exit the track before the point where they start !
All of which explains why Tesla cannot even post an unofficial lap time.
 
On the subject ot the Dalhousie laboratory results - this is a a very comprehensive paper, and sort of serves as a 'smack-down' challenge. Come up with a better chemistry than this and we'll eat our words.

It seems the electrolyte composition was the greatest contribution to Li-ion battery chemistry - including a few little additives like vinylene carbonate and ethylene sulphate. This forms a very robust SEI which protects the anode from lithium inventory loss - the main cause of decrease in capacity over time.

I agree though - inclusion of cobalt will mean that recycling is going to be a big deal. After all, a cubic metre of Li-ion cells represents an ore body of the highest grade, and it's just as complicated to work with as a mineral based ore.
 
Novonix has the patents to produce 532 along with the needed graphite. China has the same but Novonix will be American producer. Dahn is retiring and joining novonix this summer full time
 
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