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Best Method for Battery Build??? 16s4p Telsa 2170 Cells

Posted: Nov 21 2019 11:54pm
by Maniaccts
Previously had a 15s1p chevy volt battery mod in combination with my 9c m3004rc motor. Was really impressed with the match but unfortunately burnt the battery out. Pulled 34mph and got me around everywhere i needed to go.
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Just recently got the Tesla Model 3 battery in and managed to keep a segment together while dismantling. I plan on making it 16s4p and was thinking of wiring it with fuse wire in the Tesla fashion. Need some opinions please.
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Also have a few hundred cells available to buy for anyone interested!

Re: Best Method for Battery Build TESLA 2170

Posted: Nov 22 2019 1:31am
by ScooterMan101
What was the milage on the Tesla 3 when the battery pack was pulled from it


Would you be selling 16s x 4 p packs ?
or
Other configs like 6s x 4p ?

What is the continious rating in amps for each cell ? or for 4 cells in parallel ?

Is there a possibility to have more than 4 in parallel in any s size pack ? ,

( note a number of us use Lipo chargers so 6s would be best ( for a 18s system )
or 7s or 8s

Where are you located ?

PM me with prices per cell please .

Re: Best Method for Battery Build TESLA 2170

Posted: Nov 22 2019 8:41am
by Maniaccts
Milage was less than 3k. Came out of California.

Selling groups of individuals cells that would need be configured anyway you want. Can be built in any series or parallel configuration. Most that can be shipped is 60 per box.

Not sure on the amp rating as nobody really knows yet. I have seen 3c and 4c discussed in other forums. They are 4.8ah batteries which would be more then sufficient on ebikes.

Will ship or do local pick up from
Springfield Illinois USA

Shipping is to the Continental US via UPS ground compliant with all shipping regulations.

Re: Best Method for Battery Build TESLA 2170

Posted: Nov 22 2019 10:05am
by 999zip999
Looking at that block of cells it looks like all pos on top ?

Re: Best Method for Battery Build TESLA 2170

Posted: Nov 22 2019 1:44pm
by Maniaccts
Yes, all cells were positioned the same direction across the whole battery. Many (I believe) aluminum buss bars connected all the batteries via fuse wires to the top of each cell. Either to the positive center or negative top edge.
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Re: Best Method for Battery Build TESLA 2170

Posted: Nov 22 2019 2:23pm
by 999zip999
I think you are going to cut that up to alternate more positive or negative or positive or negative 16 times ? How does that block as is help you ?

Re: Best Method for Battery Build TESLA 2170

Posted: Nov 22 2019 2:27pm
by SRFirefox
Can you tell us a little bit more about how you disassembled the individual cells? The adhesive they used on them looks pretty tough. Also, it looks like there's no cell level insulation on the cases, is that right?

Re: Best Method for Battery Build TESLA 2170

Posted: Nov 22 2019 2:58pm
by Maniaccts
999zip999 wrote:
Nov 22 2019 2:23pm
I think you are going to cut that up to alternate more positive or negative or positive or negative 16 times ? How does that block as is help you ?
Figured I could do fuse wire like the way it came. Similar to this without flipping the batteries.
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SRFirefox wrote:
Nov 22 2019 2:27pm
Can you tell us a little bit more about how you disassembled the individual cells? The adhesive they used on them looks pretty tough. Also, it looks like there's no cell level insulation on the cases, is that right?
All I can say is hard work and a lot of time. Felt like a surgeon trying to dissect the thing. Definitely wont be doing it again. The cells are all unprotected just separated by the silicone foam and epoxy. In cased in plastic and metal.

Re: Best Method for Battery Build TESLA 2170

Posted: Nov 23 2019 11:24am
by ScooterMan101
You are saying that the Tesla 21700 cells are both + and - on just the one side ?

Re: Best Method for Battery Build TESLA 2170

Posted: Nov 23 2019 11:39am
by Maniaccts
The top center of all cylindrical cells such as the 18650s and these tesla 2170 are positive. The top edge, sides and bottom are negative. That is why they usually wrap them and add the insulator ring. In the close up cell top picture you can see the weld spots for both positive and negative leads. Positive in the middle negative along the outer edge

Re: Best Method for Battery Build TESLA 2170

Posted: Nov 23 2019 4:43pm
by ScooterMan101
So that is how Tesla is doing it different from DIY the e-bike world . Welding the Negative on the Top , interesting that they could pull so many amps that way .

It perhaps is a way to cut down on the amount of time and materials needed to build each pack.

Regarding The complete pack , what was the amount of cells in Series ?
and,
How much was the pack in Parallel ?

Before you had broken the up .

Re: Best Method for Battery Build??? 16s4p Telsa 2170 Cells

Posted: Dec 01 2019 9:46pm
by Maniaccts
Has there been a determined preferred way to wire together a pack? I know some are against the solder/fuse wire method. Would it be in better interest to invest in a spot welder?

Re: Best Method for Battery Build??? 16s4p Telsa 2170 Cells

Posted: Dec 03 2019 1:42am
by John in CR
Maniaccts wrote:
Nov 21 2019 11:54pm
Just recently got the Tesla Model 3 battery in and managed to keep a segment together while dismantling. I plan on making it 16s4p and was thinking of wiring it with fuse wire in the Tesla fashion. Need some opinions please.
20191120_144034(1)~2.jpg
Also have a few hundred cells available to buy for anyone interested!
Is this block of cells in the original Tesla structure of foam, plastic and adhesive? If so, is there any way to cut blocks out of the module while retaining much or all of the factory electrical connections? I understand there's probably no way to do it with a 16s4p brick, but what about in larger blocks?

Of the stash of cells you want to sell, how much of the structure still has the factory electrical connections intact?

Re: Best Method for Battery Build??? 16s4p Telsa 2170 Cells

Posted: Dec 03 2019 8:13am
by Maniaccts
It is just that. A chunk of the whole battery. I suppose you could remove pieces following the pattern the factory had them connected. They are in a intricate pattern so it wouldn't be easy nor practical for most because the amount of cells connected in parallel. The whole battery is dismantled now, with the buss bars being the first part removed. They are down to single cells clean and ready to build into custom sized packs.

Re: Best Method for Battery Build??? 16s4p Telsa 2170 Cells

Posted: Dec 03 2019 8:45am
by John in CR
Maniaccts wrote:
Dec 03 2019 8:13am
They are down to single cells clean and ready to build into custom sized packs.
Yes, but that's so much work, and I by far prefer to use factory connections when possible. My Volt modules perform beautifully, and you killed yours, though possibly due to aggressive charge/discharge levels...or not adequately compress the cells. The only mod I've done other than hack off the extra width of the coolant flow tubes with a sawsall and on one bike with a double 12s make the tabs at 21s my negative terminal.

I'd like to try a 21s 10p-12p pack using Tesla 2170's to get the more bike-like width, but I don't want to recreate the connections at the cells. Since Tesla doesn't touch the negative end of the cell I think their cell structure is such that welding or soldering at that end could be too destructive.

Is it possible to retain the full length of Tesla's fuse wire / connection when harvesting cells? That might even make a crimp connection possible when pack building.

Re: Best Method for Battery Build??? 16s4p Telsa 2170 Cells

Posted: Dec 03 2019 9:03am
by fechter
Maniaccts wrote:
Dec 01 2019 9:46pm
Has there been a determined preferred way to wire together a pack? I know some are against the solder/fuse wire method. Would it be in better interest to invest in a spot welder?
Yes.
Soldering to the bottom of a cell is likely to be bad. Spot welding isn't as bad. Wire bonding, like Tesla uses, is supposedly the best method but not something you can DIY.
One of your bigger challenges will be to adequately insulate the cells, especially around the top. I'm not sure how easy it is to find the doughnut washers in 21700 size.
It may be possible to spot weld to the edge of the cell top like Tesla but it would be tricky to keep things from shorting out.
On the positive terminal, you can solder or spot weld without much risk of damaging the cell.

Re: Best Method for Battery Build??? 16s4p Telsa 2170 Cells

Posted: Dec 03 2019 9:09am
by Maniaccts
The volt battery performed nicely, it was a modded meanwell that short circuited while charging that ultimately fried the battery.

I don't think you can have both factory wiring and keeping it close to bike width. You could possibly maybe get a large section cut out with the original busses but it would still require cutting and connecting. See picture 3 in the posts the metal grid is how they are wired both negative and positive.
Single cells may be more soldering or connecting but ultimately easier and more applicable. They could be removed with the majority of the fuse wire however they are very brittle and 1cm long at best.
I plan on spot welding wire back to the original posts similar to factory.

Re: Best Method for Battery Build??? 16s4p Telsa 2170 Cells

Posted: Dec 03 2019 6:51pm
by John in CR
Maniaccts wrote:
Dec 03 2019 9:09am
The volt battery performed nicely, it was a modded meanwell that short circuited while charging that ultimately fried the battery.

I don't think you can have both factory wiring and keeping it close to bike width. You could possibly maybe get a large section cut out with the original busses but it would still require cutting and connecting. See picture 3 in the posts the metal grid is how they are wired both negative and positive.
Single cells may be more soldering or connecting but ultimately easier and more applicable. They could be removed with the majority of the fuse wire however they are very brittle and 1cm long at best.
I plan on spot welding wire back to the original posts similar to factory.
Thanks for the info. Is that a module from a Model 3? If so, is it one of the 23s packs from the side or one of the 25s from the center? How many 2170's are in parallel? As I understand it the plastic coolant flow channel run the length of the module, and the series structure does too, though in a more complex way. I'm looking to go in on a module with a friend, and the fact that you were able to keep a block intact is encouraging for what I want to do. It looks like you cut your block out along the grey plastic coolant flow channels. How did you do that? I'd go with quite a few more in parallel, so my hope is to retain much of the electrical connections and use a dremel to carefully cut the tabs in a carefully planned manner.

Re: Best Method for Battery Build??? 16s4p Telsa 2170 Cells

Posted: Dec 03 2019 8:52pm
by Maniaccts
It is out of the middle of the Tesla 3 battery pack. The coolant channels are aluminum coated in a plastic like material. It runs the length of the battery every other row. I cut across the channels however cutting thru it damages several cells. It was only possible for me once I dissected the battery nearly all the way. The grey plastic you are referring to I believe is the epoxy that the pack is glued together with, others have referred to it as a jb weld like material.
Im not saying its not possible but it would require cutting thru both the top and the bottom of the pack and then severing each channel. You would also have to map out each cell to find where the paralleled groups and series groups are. I would suggest perhaps maybe checking into the model s or other electric vehicle batteries.
If I had known the difficulties, the amount of work, mess and headache that goes into this pack I would not have bought it. Just wished someone had told me before I invested. However not much information is available on these batteries and I assume this is why.

Re: Best Method for Battery Build??? 16s4p Telsa 2170 Cells

Posted: Dec 06 2019 1:20am
by bik-e-bik-e
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=103534

I have posted a picture in my discussion hope it will help your Tesla style battery build with affordable technologies

Re: Best Method for Battery Build??? 16s4p Telsa 2170 Cells

Posted: Dec 06 2019 8:10am
by Maniaccts
Interesting

Re: Best Method for Battery Build??? 16s4p Telsa 2170 Cells

Posted: Sep 15 2020 8:02pm
by drlava
ManiacCTS, did you ever find a way to connect to these cells? I purchased 4 from ebay (it may have been you) and can spot weld to the steel outer jacket, but can't to the anode cap. In fact, the anode appears to be aluminum which resists any attempts at spot welds without laser or ultrasound bonding equipment.

If you found a way, I'd love to hear it.

Re: Best Method for Battery Build??? 16s4p Telsa 2170 Cells

Posted: Mar 05 2021 12:03am
by Inwo
I too am looking for answers. I have been splitting tesla3 modules into useable lengths. So far I have not been able to repair fused links.
Today I tried various methods and materials using an 800w 40khz welder. Zero success so far. Ordered a smaller horn/tip today, but I have little confidence it will be better.
Are there any ultrasonic gurus on here to point me in the right direction?
More power? Special tip and orientation? Aluminum strip to aluminum battery cap?
Any material better suited?
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Re: Best Method for Battery Build??? 16s4p Telsa 2170 Cells

Posted: Mar 05 2021 1:37am
by 99t4
Forum member flippy seems to know a lot about these packs. Ask flippy.

Re: Best Method for Battery Build??? 16s4p Telsa 2170 Cells

Posted: Mar 06 2021 4:49pm
by flippy
i am sorry to burst some bubbles but tesla does not use fuse wire, they use wire.

any wire is a fuse technically but tesla does not use them as such. its nearly impossible to burn out a tesla wire link because any event that will manage to burn the wire will at that point be your main concern.
i only saw 1 battery have some popped wires and that was after the driver yeeted himself at 170+kph at a concrete pillar and the battery ended up 200m downrange into a field, what was left of it anyways.

dont forget: the cell has a safety suicide pill in the top built in already. it triggers even before the wire generally does. its the white plastic ring on top.

just use a regular spot welder and nickel strip to build your battery. forget about "fuse wire". its not a thing. the only reason tesla uses wire is simply because they needed to automate a process on to connect thousands of cells fast and cheap.
als long as you dont have a half a million dollar robot and a quarter million dollar ultrasonic weld head bolted to it you need to forget using these technologies. they are well outside the scope of any DIY'er and even most battery companies. in my country there is only 1 company that even has a ultraasonic welding machine and even they replaced it with laser welding a while back.