ISO 30C to 45C rated pouch cells

I have been working on a project and we are looking for cells that we need a high C rate.

The electric motor will be running for about 90 second but be at full load (ie 1000 AMPS). Current pack design is 400 Volt 109S4P of 5 Ah pouch cells. We are still working on motor/controller development so the end voltage is not set yet.

Weight is a concern so the lighter the better.

Using a RC pack of 50C or 100C would be an option but the power leads are a limiting factor. We are looking for bare cells. Opposite end tabs would be the best for packaging and buss bar connections.

Yes I am aware of the LoneStar Sleeper Cells which is at the top of the list but looking for other sources.

I have heard YGS Lipo talked about but I unable to fine info about them. Looks like the web site is down/coming soon.

I know battery companies/suppliers come and go but looking for leads that we may be able to use once the world settles down.

Thanks!!

SpeedRacer93 said:

I have been working on a project and we are looking for cells that we need a high C rate.

The electric motor will be running for about 90 second but be at full load (ie 1000 AMPS). Current pack design is 400 Volt 109S4P of 5 Ah pouch cells. We are still working on motor/controller development so the end voltage is not set yet.

Weight is a concern so the lighter the better.

Using a RC pack of 50C or 100C would be an option but the power leads are a limiting factor. We are looking for bare cells. Opposite end tabs would be the best for packaging and buss bar connections.

Yes I am aware of the LoneStar Sleeper Cells which is at the top of the list but looking for other sources.

I have heard YGS Lipo talked about but I unable to fine info about them. Looks like the web site is down/coming soon.

I know battery companies/suppliers come and go but looking for leads that we may be able to use once the world settles down.

Thanks!!

Click to expand...

I haven't used these guys, but I have heard good things about them, and they have been around for a while. I looked at their products a while back when designing an electric motorcycle, but decided upon a different chemistry (LTO):

http://www.herewin.com/en/index.asp

Shenzhen Herewin Battery. There was talk on an RC forum that they are actually the parent company for one or more of the most common mid-range RC batteries out there. Might have been Turnigy? So they aren't going to be best on market, but you won't be paying best on market price either.

They do make cells with tabs on opposing sides, but from my experience, that only starts when you start hitting 20Ah size and above, so you might not get exactly what you need.

I hope you excuse me if you see this as rude... But I'm seeing an odd dichotomy here. Nobody takes a project of this challenge on without a shit tonne of knowledge behind them, so I reckon you're pretty cluey about all this stuff. But even as an amateur, a few things stick out to me:

1. 1000A for 90 seconds = 1000/3600 x 90 = 25Ah. 4P of 5Ah packs = 20Ah. Whatever you're building is going to be cruising on momentum for the last 18 seconds or so...

2. Draining a battery from full to flat is a not only a good way to make sure you only get a few cycles out of them, you're going to get an inconsistent speed as the internal resistance changes at the top and bottom of the pack.

3. If the power leads are the only thing stopping you from using RC Lipo... What's stopping you from putting your own power leads on them? One thing to remember is that Ampacity tables are assuming long runs (i.e. some of the cable will have nothing to sink heat into except the insulation) and indefinite time frames (I.e. will eventually reach thermal equilibrium above the rated temp of your insulation).

In your case, extremely short runs could use bus bars or other large metal bits as de-facto heat sinks, and after 90 seconds, if you're not yet at thermal equilibrium, it doesn't matter if you were over spec because you're not getting any hotter. Add to this some silicone insulation at 200*C instead of PVC, and while it might be hotter than you'd like, it's not hot enough to damage anything.

I'm not saying leave the standard 12AWG leads with XT90s on there (I've never understood how they can sell a battery capable of 250A, with wires capable of 88A, and a connector capable of 90A... But hey, I've seen worse come out of China), but 6 AWG will withstand 300A, Put some oversized copper bus bars at each end to sink some heat, and maybe a duplicated 0 awg run to the controller, keep the runs as short as you physically can and introduce some cooling from wind, and I think you'd be pretty safe.


We're all enthusiasts here, so would you mind sharing more about your project? Advice might also be able to be more tailored.

A locatIon / country would be a helpful start.
By saying you are looking for alternatives to Lonestar sleeper cells, i guess you mean you are looking for a cheaper source of similar cells ?
The problem is, that cell suppliers lie about their products, and until you test and compare them, you you wont know their true performance capability. ..that is why Lonestar etc cost more..they are proven.!
Also, i second Sunders comment about a 4p group of 5Ah cells as not having anywwhere near enough capacity for your 90 secs @ 1000A target..as a guess i would suggest you plan on roughly double that capacity !
Remember ..cells do not discharge the same capacity under extreme loads.. nor do they maintain their “nominal” voltage !

ES member “Jonescg” builds high performance pouch cell packs, and has a lot of experience and testing with various cells. He is Au based but a PM to him may be useful to point you in the right direction.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=38252

I could do that.

If you are serious. Give you some options to spend the funds on. I know some people. A real quote on new cells.

What does

Current pack design is 400 Volt 109S4P of 5 Ah pouch cells

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exactly mean?

109 s 4 p? I dont quite understand that.

1000A continuous should not be a problem.

OK let we fill in some details. I am located in the USA and currently on semi lock down so I have doing work on a project that I have been working on the last couple years along with moving, building a new shop, life.

The project is an electric land speed streamliner. It will be in the E2 class which is the 500-1000 Kg/100-2200 lbs (with out the driver) electric only class. Basically it is wide open except for safety requirements and requires at least 4 wheels.

Based on our race data from our current cars (ICE) and from other teams we have a good understanding of what it will take to meet our goal of 250 MPH (We really would like to be at 300 MPH in the end).

Based on this data, we compute we need a peak of 790 Nm and 312 Kw and average 545 Nm and 228 Kw at the ground for the 90 secs. Again this is computed data. The gut feel is we need more POWER...LOL

Both E1 and E2 reconds of 205 and 213 MPH where set with about 175 Kw but a lot of CFD work for the E1 record. The E2 record was set in 1997 using two 9" DC motors and AGM batteries.

We had planned on just doing front wheel drive with 2 BMW i3 motors inline going into a quick change rearend but we are now looking at using 4 smaller motors with one driving each wheel (think Yasa P400RS style) with a simple drop gear box using quick change gears. This 4WD/AWD setup is mainly to help with traction, weight and also packaging in the small 24" x 24" body shell (<0.2 Cd). The front two wheel will be "normal" side by side layout but narrow inside the body. The rear wheels will be inline with the body teardropping down in the rear half.

With some help from others on this board, we have the i3 motors spinning and have been able to load them on our eddy brake engine dyno. We are still working on getting up to full power.

Which is why we are looking for battery options. We plan on two battery packs. One for front and one for rear.

Sounds like fun... and a very expensive hobby.

Not much more to add, except with that much weight, I don't think you should be concerned about another few kilos to get a decent and "oversized" battery. Not only do better batteries tend to weigh more, (well, they have a lower energy density, so they can have a higher power density) no battery runs well at the edge of their spec.

I thought you were like builidng a 100kg Formula-e car or something and every gram counts.

....we compute we need a peak of 790 Nm and 312 Kw and average 545 Nm and 228 Kw at the ground for the 90 secs.

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I have no intention of critisizing your efforts and thoughts, and i am sure you have your reasons.......
.....but i wonder why you are working on re=engineering a custom drive train, when those requirements are well within the capabilities of standard Tesla S components ?

Hillhater said:

I have no intention of critisizing your efforts and thoughts, and i am sure you have your reasons.......
.....but i wonder why you are working on re=engineering a custom drive train, when those requirements are well within the capabilities of standard Tesla S components ?

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Weight, aero, and the amount of work to get a Tesla drive train to fit. We would need to split the inverter and power unit, machine off the gearbox and still need a quick change rearend to get as narrow as we are looking to do. Yes, we could go to a body twice as wide but then you need more power. The power needs goes by the power of 3 the faster you go. Bigger wider bodies need more power. Plus everyone would expect us to use a Tesla (the small block chevy of the EV world.)

Here is a streamliner with a turbo charged small block chevy that goes 400+ MPH. The joke is this designer/builder's cars "go under the air." Yes it has 4 wheels.



BTW we are doing this for fun and the challenge. Most all landspeed cars are built in home shops on "retirement money" budgets.

Sunder said:

Sounds like fun... and a very expensive hobby.

Not much more to add, except with that much weight, I don't think you should be concerned about another few kilos to get a decent and "oversized" battery. Not only do better batteries tend to weigh more, (well, they have a lower energy density, so they can have a higher power density) no battery runs well at the edge of their spec.

I thought you were like builidng a 100kg Formula-e car or something and every gram counts.

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We are counting grams and the batteries are one of the heaviest units. We are not looking for thousands of cycles on the battery. We are looking at 50 to 100 cycles. Weight adds up fast when you are required to have a steel roll cage/frame. Plus the carbon fiber/salt/electricity mixture can have issues at high speed. We plan to have to "ground" the body after each run to discharge the "static" build up.

I have been looking at adjusting the pack voltage up to help with the amp load at each cell. I need to work on my spreadsheet to help find the "sweet" mix for each cell.

Plus, as someone said, we still need to test the cells to see if they meet their "printed" specs.

With the state of the world, I really don't expect battery supply chain opening up/catching up soon so I really don't expect to do much testing so spreadsheets is what I have to play with right now. I really would like to find a US cell manufacture.

We had planned on just doing front wheel drive with 2 BMW i3 motors inline going into a quick change rearend but we are now looking at using 4 smaller motors with one driving each wheel (think Yasa P400RS style) with a simple drop gear box using quick change gears. This 4WD/AWD setup is mainly to help with traction, weight and also packaging in the small 24" x 24" body shell (<0.2 Cd). The front two wheel will be "normal" side by side layout but narrow inside the body. The rear wheels will be inline with the body teardropping down in the rear half.

With some help from others on this board, we have the i3 motors spinning and have been able to load them on our eddy brake engine dyno.

Click to expand...

Am i reading this right, ? ...you plan to use 4wd using an i3 motor on each wheel ?

We are counting grams and the batteries are one of the heaviest units.......
....
I have been looking at adjusting the pack voltage up to help with the amp load at each cell. I need to work on my spreadsheet to help find the "sweet" mix for each cell.

Click to expand...

The amp load wont be a problem if you get the right cells.
But i hope you understood the point about not having enough capacity ( Ah or Wh) in your initial 109s,4p , pack proposal.
You need a bare minimum of 10 kWh for that 90 sec run time,.. likely more like 12kWh to be realistic.
That is a 30 Ah, 400v pack ( 109s, 6p, of 5ah cells) ..
Which would reduce the amp load on each cell to 167 A each or 33C.
No matter what voltage or cell config you choose that will be 60 kg at least assembled, with the best cells.

Hillhater said:

Am i reading this right, ? ...you plan to use 4wd using an i3 motor on each wheel ?

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We had planned on using two i3 motors inline going to a quick change "rearend" driving the front wheels only. The rear wheels would be inline has just idler wheels. Traction on the salt (specially in the last 10 years) has been an issue which is why we are looking at AWD/4WD with smaller motor for each wheel (something like a Yasa P400 or EVO). This final motor selection has not been set yet. We would like to still use inline wheels in the rear and the BMW i3 or Leaf motors are a little large to fit inside a body that teardrops down to 12 inch wide with a gearbox. We are not sure if we really need a gearbox (ie direct drive) but the gearbox allows us to tune the motor RPM. We are planning on using standard quick change gears in the simple drop boxes just because we already have them on hand they are a known gear at these loads/speeds.

The amp load wont be a problem if you get the right cells.
But i hope you understood the point about not having enough capacity ( Ah or Wh) in your initial 109s,4p , pack proposal.
You need a bare minimum of 10 kWh for that 90 sec run time,.. likely more like 12kWh to be realistic.
No matter what voltage or cell config you choose that will be 60 kg at least assembled, with the best cells.

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The 109s4p was based on baseline. I have quoted peaks and averages but we have data doing samples at 100 Mhz. These are for ICE cars and we are using their power requirements and specs to back compute our electrical needs. This is all math based so again real life will come into account. I do understand your statement and have now started looking to voltage sage and reserve capacity. We are also looking to other areas we can save weight. Weight is good and bad. Weight helps with traction but you also have to accelerate that weight. I feel this has been an issue with the latest E3 car from University of Ohio. It has about 1+ Megwatt of power but weights over 8000 lbs.

We are in truly un-charted land for us but we are excited by something new and different to us (Ok our current ICE motor builder may not be happy). All comments are helpful.

Speedracer93 are you the driver ?

999zip999 said:

Speedracer93 are you the driver ?

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Yes I will be the chief shop sweeper. I am also the owner, chassis builder, and "engineer". I have friends that will be helping with body design, CFD, CNC, carbon fiber work, paint/body finish, and drink my beer/bourbon.

I'm excited about your project, if you have time do a build thread so we can follow along.

Are you doing something similar to the BYU electric streamliner?

ZeroEm said:

Are you doing something similar to the BYU electric streamliner?

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Yes I have pulled and studied most of the papers I could find on BYU's Streamliner and Ohio State's Buckeye Bullet. My wife is an adjunct professor who has access to the academic paper search systems.

That was my starting point for research and design parameters. BYU spent alot of time on their aerodynamics along with power. Ohio State spent a lot of time on power and drive train. BYU was in E1 (<500 Kg) and OS is in the E3 (>1000 Kg) classes.

The information and data feedback from those previous designs will be invaluable.
But Electric drive train development , ( batteries, motors, inverter/cotrollers , etc , changes constantly, so there could be new tech available to you that was not available previously. :wink:

SpeedRacer93 said:

I really would like to find a US cell manufacture.

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Tesla at their Gigafactory is the only place I know for sure that makes (lithium-based) cells in the USA.

Dow/Kokam is a USA-based manufacturer, but I don't know that they still make the cells here.

AFAIK A123 shuttered the last USA plant, so they're all made overseas now.

While I am not an expert by any means, I'm not aware of any other places that actually made the cells here. Quite a few places *claim* to, with "ebike" packs, but they are at best making the packs here, and mostly even that is a lie, where they are sticking a brand label on a Chinese-built battery pack. (which may be of good quality...but it's not made here as they may say).


So...if you're tied to using USA-made cells, you may have more trouble getting cells than if you expand to world-wide manufacturing options.


If you're open to overseas stuff, you should talk to JonesCG about the cells he's used in racing packs. AFAIK they're basically like the cells in RC LiPo packs, but have been thru (and passed) QC (which most, probably all, of the RC Lipo has never even experienced), and are supplied as bare cells that you can interconnect as needed. He's built high-voltage high-current packs out of them, and has at least one thread in the for-sale section with details of some of those.

Anyone putting themselves near any RC lipo while drawing 1000A at 400V will soon get a Darwin Award.

2p of A123 amp20's will do the job if you can get the tab connections good enough. Otherwise I'd look into a battery pack from a very low mileage hybrid vehicle that has a very small battery used only for assistance during takeoffs, so high C rate cells are required. I picked one up from a Buick for cheap for testing, but the pack was too used so the cells had lost too much power and capacity.

John in CR said:

Anyone putting themselves near any RC lipo while drawing 1000A at 400V will soon get a Darwin Award...

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Or ,.. a world record !
Remember , we are talking about extreme competition use,..not daily commuting !
Have you heard of John Metric ?

Hillhater said:

John in CR said:

Anyone putting themselves near any RC lipo while drawing 1000A at 400V will soon get a Darwin Award...

Click to expand...

Or ,.. a world record !
Remember , we are talking about extreme competition use,..not daily commuting !
Have you heard of John Metric ?

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I have talked with John a couple times and again his cells are at the top of my list but looking at different options also.

I understand the dangers of working with high loads but nothing is safe in this world as we have come to realize in the last couple months.

Taking everyone comments in here is my latest spreadsheet for calculating the different battery pack options. I have resolved an issues with my P calculations for the 90 run. Also added in usable battery % and Inverter efficiency both of which I have at 80%. Inverters are rated higher but I understand that this is racing and everything will be pushed.

View attachment Battery Calculations.xlsx

The weight calculations are just the cells not the connectors nor the case. Again I plan on having two battery packs in the car. One in the front and one in the rear (ie: one for each pair of wheels)

Pricing does not include shipping/etc and some are just SWAG.

Some of things I believe I may need to also take into account:

• Locked rotor phase amps effect on the max draw (ie: AMPs needed for max nM)
  Battery voltage sag effects
  Battery voltage draw down at end of run
  everything else I can't think of

There is a myriad of better cells than the ones on that XLS list available to the American consumer, well engineered by men who build their lives around engineering... A myriad. Turnigy? maybe. Spim08? Maybe. Headways? nah lol.

Some data on that xls does not have much reference to it.... and leave the question as to what cell is actually referenced.

Lol. Sleeper cells. "100C" Bull. We have been in this lipo game for 10+ years and no 5Ah cell pushes 100C reliably and repeatable. "250C?" Ok Sure. "27,000$? Sure they do 1250A."

I always had a problem with seller ratings and the " noone actually tested empirically" data.

1250A from a single 5Ah cell? Let me put that to the test. I have thought about buying a random sample and doing that. Buy one. Charge it. Short it. Measure. Prosper with your (newly confirmed empirical) knowledge.

Idk. Mebbe. Mebbe a 5Ah cell can push 1250A. So maybe, given benefit of the doubt ...


How much volume do you have to work with? Whats the GVW goal?


Take my advice with prejudice., please. Most everyone here knows me. I'm a Naysayer. Esp. when it comes to battery stuff.

DogDipstick said:

There is a myriad of better cells than the ones on that XLS list available to the American consumer, well engineered by men who build their lives around engineering... A myriad. Turnigy? maybe. Spim08? Maybe. Headways? nah lol.

Some data on that xls does not have much reference to it.... and leave the question as to what cell is actually referenced.

Lol. Sleeper cells. "100C" Bull. We have been in this lipo game for 10+ years and no 5Ah cell pushes 100C reliably and repeatable. "250C?" Ok Sure. "27,000$? Sure they do 1250A."

I always had a problem with seller ratings and the " noone actually tested empirically" data.

1250A from a single 5Ah cell? Let me put that to the test. I have thought about buying a random sample and doing that. Buy one. Charge it. Short it. Measure. Prosper with your (newly confirmed empirical) knowledge.

Idk. Mebbe. Mebbe a 5Ah cell can push 1250A. So maybe, given benefit of the doubt ...


How much volume do you have to work with? Whats the GVW goal?

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Again the title of the thread is "ISO high C rate cells" please share links or just brands/part numbers to the myriad of cells you are talking about and I will add them to the spreadsheet.

I do plan on purchasing sample cells and testing them against a load comparable to the designed load.

As stated earlier, the total weight of the race car has to be under 2200 lbs with out driver. Weight is taken at the start of the race week/weekend and after each record run. Volume is not really limited because we can make the car longer. We are looking to keep the body about 5 to 6 sqr feet frontal area.

The Sleeper Cells, are from John Metric who's team/company holds a number of the current electric drag racing records.

https://lonestarevperformance.com/sleeper-cells.html

amberwolf said:

So...if you're tied to using USA-made cells, you may have more trouble getting cells than if you expand to world-wide manufacturing options.

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I am not 100% tied to USA made cells. I understand that most cell are made in AsiaPAC but if just looking for options mainly.

amberwolf said:

If you're open to overseas stuff, you should talk to JonesCG about the cells he's used in racing packs. AFAIK they're basically like the cells in RC LiPo packs, but have been thru (and passed) QC (which most, probably all, of the RC Lipo has never even experienced), and are supplied as bare cells that you can interconnect as needed. He's built high-voltage high-current packs out of them, and has at least one thread in the for-sale section with details of some of those.

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Based on JonesCG posting he is using the FEP1043125 cells which are in latest spreadsheet.

I have also added the Kokam, A123, and just some other cells I have found that look close. Some cells in the spreadsheet are just generic cells to narrow a general spec that works and then see if I can find a real cell that close to that spec.

Some of the things that I have learned is that a very HIGH C (high cost) rated cell may not be the best choice because it does not have the capacity due to the 90 second run time.

SpeedRacer93 said:

https://lonestarevperformance.com/sleeper-cells.html

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Yes we know where the 27,000$ cells are, Thankyou.

Just buy a recycled Volt module.... tested and proven to be 1000A capable, used, cheap, cool able, professionally manufactured, and available new if you have a significant budget. Not to heavy and OEM safety. Good density.

....or if you have the coin.. there are others... newer.. modules...

Honestly the records that lonestar beat...

(....have you watched this? J. Metric. Says it himself. Talks alot about the Cobalt and whatnot. Very cost effective, vs.... $27K, I would say. Also. Actual empirical evidence, he talks about.

"John Metric of LoneStar EV @ EVCCON2013: High Performance from Stock Parts"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlTgNmdTJ5Q&list=PLWf888vNUux_H1eReH1Ky-JVPrhbnKsgH&index=14

Really cool stuff.... I can watch that vid ten times or more and not get bored... )

....were probably set in the first place by those little Volt modules. .... I have seen logs easily approaching 1kA. Have you considered recycling an OEM module?

DogDipstick said:

....or if you have the coin.. there are others... newer.. modules...

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$27k is about the cost of a complete ICE racing engine refresh. (ie: everything except for the block, bare heads, and maybe the crank if you are lucky)

Again please post links to this newer modules or are you talking new Volt packs.

The one issue with Volt batteries is the weight at over 450 lbs for a 400 V battery made of 44.4V sub packs and they would also be $17k new from GM.

What would you propose for a 2200 lbs race car (with all safety items) to accelerate to and average 250 MPH over a measured mile on 5 miles of salt?