'on board' 1.5kW charger. Which alibaba supplier?

Jordan325ic

100 W
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So many sellers on Alibaba sell these aluminum-housing, waterproof chargers. All appear identical, specs weight and photos. Prices range from $140 to $240 + shipping.

Anybody have any experience with these, or better yet a particular vendor?

Looking for a reasonably priced 15-20a charger for a 20s pack (leaf cells) which works with a standard US 120v outlet and won't mind the occasional river crossing.

Example:
charger1.5kw.jpg
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/110v-input-Lifepo4-AGM-charger-on_1600191149449.html?spm=a2700.12243863.0.0.7dc13e5f4uKw4L
 
they sell these painted blue with a couple scooters in my country. they are shit. i had a whole box of them, all dead.

their diodes and mosfets are utter garbage. i dont believe they are actually rated for anything north of 750W.
 
I have a 72v 30 amp one that is only charging at 17 amps on 220v at 74v! I’m furious! Still haven’t found out the speed at 70v, it’s supposed to be 2000w but all I’ve seen is 1300w so far. It’s supposed to be 2000w up to 78v or so THEN start dropping off. Not dropping off at 74v or less, this is some BS. If anybody knows how to modify these please let me know!
 
flippy said:
they sell these painted blue with a couple scooters in my country. they are shit. i had a whole box of them, all dead.

their diodes and mosfets are utter garbage. i dont believe they are actually rated for anything north of 750W.

Being painted blue is virtually never a good sign! Were they heavy?? These are supposed to be 6lbs.
 
flippy said:
they sell these painted blue with a couple scooters in my country. they are shit. i had a whole box of them, all dead.

their diodes and mosfets are utter garbage. i dont believe they are actually rated for anything north of 750W.

they look like the Sur-Ron charger, could you see if it had the 40 amp fuse on the board?

East Gem sells those chargers, aka Denzel

http://eastgem.net/electric_parts.html
 
Jordan325ic said:
Being painted blue is virtually never a good sign! Were they heavy?? These are supposed to be 6lbs.

yes, they are very heavy. that is what happens when its filled with bullshit.

at least the paint made them look better....
 
If you want a quality charger, then the ELCON UHF 1.8kW HK-H CAN Charger is the only way to go.

With CANbus:
https://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/9034090/10295151.htm
https://www.electricmotorsport.com/elcon-uhf-1-8kw-hk-j-canbus-charger.html
https://evsource.com/products/elcon-uhf-1-8kw-canbus-charger

The version without CANbus is much cheaper (this is what I use on my bike):
https://www.evcomponents.com/elcon-tc-hk-h-1800w-charger.html

Yes, ELCON's are expensive compared to the cheap crap on AE, but IMHO worth every dollar.
YMMV

Michael
 
MJSfoto1956 said:
If you want a quality charger, then the ELCON UHF 1.8kW HK-H CAN Charger is the only way to go.

With CANbus:
https://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/9034090/10295151.htm
https://www.electricmotorsport.com/elcon-uhf-1-8kw-hk-j-canbus-charger.html
https://evsource.com/products/elcon-uhf-1-8kw-canbus-charger

The version without CANbus is much cheaper (this is what I use on my bike):
https://www.evcomponents.com/elcon-tc-hk-h-1800w-charger.html

Yes, ELCON's are expensive compared to the cheap crap on AE, but IMHO worth every dollar.
YMMV

Michael


or just buy a meanwell ERP series if you want compact power with active cooling or a ELG/HLG if you want waterproof for mounting on the vehicle. it litteraly does not get better quallity then the ERP or HLG series. in the nearly a decade of using them i NEVER had a single one break or a customer come back for warranty. and i have mounted hundreds of them on vehicles.
 
flippy said:
or just buy a meanwell ERP series if you want compact power with active cooling or a ELG/HLG if you want waterproof for mounting on the vehicle. it litteraly[sic] does not get better quallity[sic] then the ERP or HLG series. in the nearly a decade of using them i NEVER had a single one break or a customer come back for warranty. and i have mounted hundreds of them on vehicles.

I stand corrected: *either* ELCON or Meanwell are the way to go.
Your choice will depend on level of waterproofing, CANbus, power range, availability, warranty, and ultimately price.

M
 
Thanks! Great info here, definitely leaning toward the non-can elcon... $225 is not bad... Will report back.
 
The Meanwell, while great quality, are PSUs, not chargers.

You need to add an HVC circuit in order to automate charge termination.

Do not depend on human reliability for that.

 
john61ct said:
The Meanwell, while great quality, are PSUs, not chargers.
You need to add an HVC circuit in order to automate charge termination.
Do not depend on human reliability for that.

there is no charge termination with lithium.

unless you have a bms with active balancing you NEED float voltage to stay on so the balancing board can do its job.
 
That's IMO a crappy way to do balancing IMO but won't argue here.

My point still stands, do not rely on the human element, for safety the normal cycling charge process - however you choose to do it - should be automatic.
 
flippy said:
john61ct said:
The Meanwell, while great quality, are PSUs, not chargers.
You need to add an HVC circuit in order to automate charge termination.
Do not depend on human reliability for that.

there is no charge termination with lithium.

unless you have a bms with active balancing you NEED float voltage to stay on so the balancing board can do its job.

I cannot figure what you say here, flippy? I know u know lithium well... But...

Most, if not all, datasheet I see, specify a termination current. Certainly.

Usually C/50 or C / 100 or C / 20. A good charger can specify this. In the datasheet every time.
 
john61ct said:
That's IMO a crappy way to do balancing IMO but won't argue here. My point still stands, do not rely on the human element, for safety the normal cycling charge process - however you choose to do it - should be automatic.
98% of ALL batteries on the market today use the "4.25V balance trigger" so a termination would mean the battery will never be able to properly balance unless its seriously out of whack en even then it wont have the time unless the unbalance triggers the OVP.
that a charger that can talk with the bms is better is not debatable. but that is simply not how any DIY or consumer level batteries are sold. so how you wish for things to be is different from reality. so saying that "its wrong" is sadly just not relevant for basically everone that reads this.

this is why i dont rely on "smart" chargers on any of the products that i make simply because its only causes issues. especially when there have been a under voltage event (good luck getting a smart charger to work) or the bms to reset, neither will happen with a smart charger. with a dumb charger the bms will simply reset and the dumb chargers dont give a frock about low voltage events or a bms that is taking hours to balance out a pack.
that is why i give out advice on real world and build my packs based on "the idiot user" so i dont get a warranty call the second they trigger the UVP of the bms and cant get the battery to come back up again because the POS "smart" charger decided it does not want to.
DogDipstick said:
flippy said:
john61ct said:
The Meanwell, while great quality, are PSUs, not chargers. You need to add an HVC circuit in order to automate charge termination. Do not depend on human reliability for that.
there is no charge termination with lithium. unless you have a bms with active balancing you NEED float voltage to stay on so the balancing board can do its job.
I cannot figure what you say here, flippy? I know u know lithium well... But...
Most, if not all, datasheet I see, specify a termination current. Certainly.
Usually C/50 or C / 100 or C / 20. A good charger can specify this. In the datasheet every time.

many people dont read/understand datasheets properly. not blaming you, datasheets are hard to pick apart even for engineers sometimes.

the datasheet charge rate just informs you at what current the battery is considerd "full" for its capacity rating. it does not tell you that the charging MUST stop, just when its considerd full. the cell itself will naturally simply stop taking in energy when it cant absorb more. its simple chemistry in that regard just like a lead acid.
as long as the battery itself is fine then the current will peter out to nothing so the cells will simply start floating. any added wear that might be the result of keeping the battery at 4.2v is basically negated by the regular wear of the pack itself from regular use. if you float at 4.1V or even lower for example you will extend the life by an order of magnitude and you cvan keep the float on basically forever without any penalty in lifespan. especially if you have a bms that does accurate balancing.

dont forget, a full cell should keep itself at 4.2v anyways. so floating it should do exactly nothing.
 
flippy said:
many people dont read/understand datasheets properly. not blaming you, datasheets are hard to pick apart even for engineers sometimes.



dont forget, a full cell should keep itself at 4.2v anyways. so floating it should do exactly nothing.

The cell can certainly keep on taking energy post termination voltage and be what is called " overcharged" and create a dangerous situation. Go charge a cell to 5 volts.. energy WILL flow, top of charge, the resistance will climb, cell will get hot, and thermal runnaway a possibility? They dont just magically stop taking power at 4.25v? I dont get what you say.

I am certainly read the datasheet correctly, know the definition of termination current, and also have many datasheets that state a different ( than 4.25v/) termination voltage inherent. I have had some personalized tutorials from LGX approved intergrators on the subject. We all know how resistance climbs on the top and bottom of a charge. On any chemistry.... Lead through lithium... alike. In storage battery engineering.

Current C/? is a standard lithium type termination that stops the charge when a current is below a ration set by the charge current (MATH?, SCIENCE?). Typically termination should be C/10.

Fallback termination is another. Used by NiCd and NiMh. For an example.

Another type of termination is when the cell voltage reaches the charge voltage set point. This termination is the quickest, because it stops the charge rather than tops off the pack...... perhaps this is what you refer to.

I did not make this up.


Every LG datasheet I have seen has a C/? in it, right nest to standard charge, standard discharge, ect. Every one. Different chemistry are different.

I really dont know what a "4.25v balance trigger is". Cheap universal BMS algorithms? Is that what you are talking about?
I do proper termination currents and get full logs. Takes the correct time. On the correct cell voltages as per the datasheets.

Here is an example on a LiFePo of a manufacturer stated termination voltage and termination current ( to top off the cell correctly, at whetever vltage you wish to.). Then a LG 18650. Then a large 65Ah LG pouch.. If you cannot see the differences in termination current specified, (in C/?) How do you ever get repeatable results? The math would never line up, charge to charge.


Even repeatable, reliable results cell to cell. Example is a C/20 LiFePo4 cell of 25Ah. Then a 2.5Ah LG 18650. Then an E63. 65Ah lipo. All specified. You would be hard pressed to find a datasheet without this figure, IMO. I always look at if first thing to tell me what kind of cell this is gonna be.

Maybe you are talking about something else. IDK.

These sheets specify it.

3.25A. For the E63.
65/ 3.25 = 20......... C/ 20.

50mAh, and 100mAh, for fast vs slow charges on teh tiny cell. Respectively.

12.5A on the 25Ah Lifepo. C/20.
 

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DogDipstick said:
The cell can certainly keep on taking energy post termination voltage and be what is called " overcharged" and create a dangerous situation. Go charge a cell to 5 volts.. energy WILL flow, top of charge, the resistance will climb, cell will get hot, and thermal runnaway a possibility? They dont just magically stop taking power at 4.25v? I dont get what you say.

i stopped reading there.

a battery/cell CANT overcharge if the charger is set to a fixed voltage wich they ALL are, no matter if its smart or dumb. if a voltage goes out of spec then that is what the bms is for and trigger the protection if the charger should fail. any other cell in a pack needs to fail before any other cell can go beyond 4.2V (or whatever). so either the bms will trigger on the busted cell or it will trigger on the cell that goes beyond 4.25V and shut the charge port down. its not that hard. i dont think you know how chargers (smart or dumb) actually work if your statement is your idea of how chargers work.

a 20S lipo charger will have a standard voltage of 84V, nothing more or less. it will NEVER go beyond that unless there is something seriously wrong and then the bms will simply trigger and protect the battery, what it is designed (or set) to do.

so whatever else you put in your post is not relevant. those datasheets actually say exactly what i said if you care to read better. it does not say YOU should terminate the charge it simply explains the conditions for the test that validates the claims in the datasheet. battery datasheets only tell you how to TEST the battery, not how to use them, just the constraints/values that the battery is tested/validated for.
 
Very interesting and lively discussion here. Don't want to deal with PSUs at this time, so the meanwell is pretty low on the list.

Bringing it back around...
Battery is actually going to be a 16s 60v110ah. Goal is zero-to-full charge in 8 hours. So in very rough terms goal is (14A input @ 60VDC) a power output of 840W.

Back to the Elcon charger listed above... the pdf states:
"110V IN≤7A 800W, 220V IN≤9A 1800W"
So that's 800W level1 charging for $300 shipped.


Any other chargers to consider besides Elcon? 800W seems like a pretty low bar, but looking around it seems like chargers are always classed by their output at 240VAC. Getting 1kW+ out of a 110V outlet seems to require a 3.3kW charger which is not in the budget.

I have asked QSmotor for the detailed data sheet on their 1.8kW charger. Seems like a similar price point and specs to the non-CAN elcon, but with CANBus as an option which hopefully won't double the price like Elcon. Also ip67.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001027489760.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.3.18954787m4UEFs
Will let everyone know.
 
i would love to see the insides of that QS charger.

ps:

for clarity: the thing that separates a charger from a power supply is current control. a power supply/PSU like you see in your computer only has constant voltage (so that is CV for short) so the voltage remains at 12V.
a "charger" has both constant current AND constant voltage (so its a CC/CV power supply).

so any "power supply" that has CC/CV functionality is a charger. it might not be sold as such like the meanwell led power supplies and the ERP series. the only diffence is that with the meanwell type you can set the current and voltage yourself. so you can stop charging at 4.1V for example and extend the battery life. or reduce the current for less brutal charge currents if you dont need them. features regular "chargers" dont have unless you break out the big bucks.

so, TL;DR: for all intents and purposes a meanwell "PSU" is a charger. there is no reason to classify or treat them differently. just because it does not say "charger" on the top does not make it not-a-charger. its the actual features that make it suitable for charging.
 
flippy said:
i would love to see the insides of that QS charger.

ps:

for clarity: the thing that separates a charger from a power supply is current control. a power supply/PSU like you see in your computer only has constant voltage (so that is CV for short) so the voltage remains at 12V.
a "charger" has both constant current AND constant voltage (so its a CC/CV power supply).

so any "power supply" that has CC/CV functionality is a charger. it might not be sold as such like the meanwell led power supplies and the ERP series. the only diffence is that with the meanwell type you can set the current and voltage yourself. so you can stop charging at 4.1V for example and extend the battery life. or reduce the current for less brutal charge currents if you dont need them. features regular "chargers" dont have unless you break out the big bucks.

so, TL;DR: for all intents and purposes a meanwell "PSU" is a charger. there is no reason to classify or treat them differently. just because it does not say "charger" on the top does not make it not-a-charger. its the actual features that make it suitable for charging.

Thank you for clarifying, that is very clear! I appreciate it. But I can't find any Meanwell CC/CV power supply that supports output voltages higher than 54V without modification/stringing multiple together.
 
Jordan325ic said:
Thank you for clarifying, that is very clear! I appreciate it. But I can't find any Meanwell CC/CV power supply that supports output voltages higher than 54V without modification/stringing multiple together.

yes, for higher voltages you need to divide the voltage by 2 and pick a "charger" that works in the desired range and connect the units in series. for 20S batteries i often use a set of HRP-300-48. these are perfect for decently sized 20S batteries and they are VERY efficient at 90% at a charging current of around 7A. i can buy them wholesale for around 70 european pesos/roebels a piece. so i get a charger with a 5 year warranty (real warranty!) for less then 150 bucks. but i dont see the use for it as i have never seen any break in 5+ years that i am selling them and i have used probably a couple hundred by now. these things simply dont break. their original usage is for medical equipment and high end industrial machines where cost is basically not a factor. that is why they have every accreditation known to man on them.

if you want to go wild they also sell anything from 75W to 5000W units... :roll:
 
That CC vs CV stuff is cray cray talk.

Every charging source does both, in fact those are just stages, the transition from one to the other not under regulator control but up to the target battery's chemistry, C-rate, SoC, resistance etc.

CC as used with normal charging does not mean truly "constant" current, just that the process has not yet hit the CV setpoint

Where the source just caps the voltage, again the resulting **current drop** is up to the resistance increasing in the battery as SoC rises, not controlled by the source's circuitry.

You might (rarely and costly) have a user control to cap a maximum current rate as well,

but none of that has to do with the difference between a charger and a PSU, either one can implement that feature.

Specialist unit that is **not** "both CC/CV" are very rare, never heard of one used for charging lead or lithium for any practical use case I've seen.
 
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