Is lip04 battery safety worth it over Lithium Ion

I have some questions pertaining to lip04 as in using lip04 cells to build an e-bike battery. So thinking that lip04 is a bit more expensive than lithium ion but lip04 does not have a $50 dangerous item shipping tax. So thinking it might be better to get lip04 batteries but they are bigger than lithium ion so will they fit in a e-bike. As for battery my e-bike build will be mostly for steat with some trail riding.
I am looking at getting a qulbix frame and am wondering if a lip04 will fit inside either the 76 or 140 frames.

Not a question with a straightforward answer, really it's up to you. Not only less risky, lifespan will be a lot longer, so cost per ride and per year is much lower too.

Figure to fit in the same space the pack will be about 20-30% bigger and heavier.

For a "fun sporty" application, very few people would go that way.

I also never heard of regs or a shipper distinguishing between different LI chemistries like that - link?

john61ct said:

I also never heard of regs or a shipper distinguishing between different LI chemistries like that - link?

Click to expand...

In North America normal Lithium ion batteries are considered a dangerous good for transport especially shipping by Air freight. In Canada they charge a $50 $70 Dangerous goods fee and think they only do ground transport in North America but not sure how they are shipped overseas. Lip04 has a different chemistry and is not as volatile and are safer than lithium Ion and do not have a dangerous good shipping fee?

On a bike, pay for the regular lithium. On something really heavy, say a maxi scooter kind of build, or a boat, or an RV storage pack, the lower density/higher weight/slower charging/lower output amp rating but high fire safety equation might work, but on a sporty bike build, I'll say from personal experience it seriously impinges either the ride quality with a heavy pack, or the range with a lighter pack to maintain a bike like feel.

Again, I have never heard of regs or a shipper distinguishing between these different LI chemistries like that, so

please provide a link supporting your assertion that they do, afaik they are all regulated equally as hazmat, worldwide.

There are battery distributors in Canada you don't have to cross the border.

no, there is no real reason to pick lifepo4 over "regular" lipo. its more expensive, larger, weighs more, and the lifespan argument is bascially just an academic exercise in debating wich sports team is better these days. also: shipping companies dont give a shit about the chemistry. its the "Li" in the name thats the problem.

john61ct said:

Again, I have never heard of regs or a shipper distinguishing between these different LI chemistries like that, so

please provide a link supporting your assertion that they do, afaik they are all regulated equally as hazmat, worldwide.

Click to expand...

https://tc.canada.ca/en/dangerous-goods/transporting-batteries

Are lithium batteries considered dangerous goods?
Yes. In Canada, the shipping and importing of lithium batteries is subject to the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act, 1992 (TDG Act) and its regulations. They are considered dangerous goods much like gasoline, propane and sulfuric acid.

Click to expand...

:
https://www.fedex.com/content/dam/f...ipping-Lithium-Batteries-via-FedEx-Ground.pdf
:

Does It Cost More to Ship Lithium Ion Batteries?
Yes, it typically costs more to ship lithium ion batteries. Shipping services must take extra care when shipping Li-ion batteries, and the additional paperwork involved contributes to the cost as well

Click to expand...

https://igsmn.com/blog/lithium-ion-batteries-and-their-shipping-restrictions/

Click to expand...

I am not sure but might just be for larger batteries but if I remember in Canada it was about a $50 fee to ship a battery pack. I looked into this a long time ago.

Again, OF COURSE lithium batteries are Hazmat classified.

My point is that LFP being included have no special advantage in that regard.

But wrt longevity everything being equal LFP has a minimum of 10x longer lifespan than the 3.6-3.7V chemistries.

But yes lower density, so maybe for a big cargo bike, or tandem / pedicab, not anything zippy ir fun

all lithium will catch on fire if mistreated. In 4 years using lithium I only had one fire and it was with lifepo4. After my incident I no longer consider lifepo4 any safer then 18650 and actually prefer the 18650. I have a 220ah lifepo4 battery bank, and also a 312ah li-ion battery bank, l'll probably end up retiring the lifepo4 and getting more li-ion.
Big plus with li-ion is the smaller size. You get more ah with less weight and bulk, perfect for a e-bike. Also with li-ion the voltage gives you a better idea what the battery remaining capacity is, no need to use a coulombmeter every time.

Here is a picture of a 3s16p 31ah li-ion battery pack and a 4s6p 10ah lifepo4 pack. Both are about same size and weight. The li-ion pack will run my 12 volt fridge for a little over a day, the lifepo4 might get me 8 hours.

18650 is just a cell form factor

does not imply li-ion vs LFP chemistry

There are plenty of crap manufactured cells out there of any chemistry, and of course if fire safety is a priority, only buy genuine and brand new cells, Grade A, from trusted suppliers

For LFP in cylindrical cell formats A123 is the way to go.

No way there is any fire risk at all following the above

so long as you also have quality charging gear plus redundant protections to ensure **always** staying well below 3.6Vpc

Personally 3.45Vpc is my stop point.

Not following all these guidelines, of course you can burn your house down, but don't blame the chemistry.

The 3.6-3.7V chemistry cells - and most especially LiPo - have **much** higher risk of burning as they wear down, even if all the above guidelines are followed to the letter

adjusting to 4.2 and 4.05Vpc respectively.

As for hazardous shipping?

Please Note, Since Jan 2018 all LiGo orders require dangerous goods declaration and fee unless 'Shipped with Equipment' In accordance with IATA UN3481 PI966 Section II. So best to order the LiGo's along with any LED Light or a motor controller or a kit to avoid the dangerous goods fee.

Click to expand...

Does this make sense?