Chargery C10325 not doing CV phase?

div

100 µW
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Feb 16, 2021
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Hi people of Endless Sphere. I come from EUC (Electric UniCycle) forum in quest of charger info.

Long story short: we are looking hard at the Chargery C10325 for charging Veteran Shermans (beefy electric unicycle, 24S/10P, 3100Wh) but according to some report the C10325 won't do CV phase with that wheel. Apparently those that use it do so as power supply mode, which is a shame for such a charger. I've also seen somewhere around here someone who mentioned incompatibility with some BMSs. I will provide links tomorrow.

Can it really be so that the C10325 can't be in a "dumb" enough mode (except PSU) to not conflict with the PEVs inbuilt BMS? I seem to understand there are some communication protocols (CAN?) but can't such things be ignored if they create conflict? The EUC BMS is probably a custom job and have a communication wire to the controller board by which charging passes. There is nothing but the charging cable between the device and the charger.

Any ideas?
Thanks for any insight.

EDIT: Please, can this not be a debate about partial charge and PSUs?
I just need to know if the C10325 can act as any dumb charger without conflicting with BMS.

Teardown pics, BMS 2/5th down.
 
Assuming LI cells, 3.6-3.7V chemistry?

There is no need for CV, to hold the Absorption setpoint for any time.

Just "charge up to X and stop" CC-only is perfectly fine.

X= 4.05V for longevity, especially at a low C-rate, say under 0.4C, very healthy

Fast charging - say ~1C (or more only with warm cells) you could go to 4.15V and still avoid stressing them.

If you don't care about coddling them for maximum lifespan,

maybe your discharge C-rate is so high, it won't make a difference,

then 4.2V is fine without CV stage, even go a little higher, calibrate against the resting voltage after say 30min.

This is all just about the cells, volts and amps.

How you get there, regulation circuitry etc does not really matter

but as you say, some devices may get involved, either bypass them, or give them what they want.

And cell balancing is an entirely separate discussion.
 
Thank you for the reply.

Yes they are Li-ion 18650 Sanyo NCR18650GA. The battery pack being 24S10P (100.8V/3100Wh) the chargery could output max rate and it would still not be 0.5C, so that part is safe. If anything the producer recommended limit is 10A due to controller board and wiring.

The reason why I would like the Chargery to do the CV phase is because the stock charger ( a YZpower-450 ) crapped out on several of us, damaging the PEV controller, so I would like a solid replacement. There is the Satiator, but at 360W it is too slow. As I do long range and charge during breaks, 1000W+ would be ideal. I've looked at most major Shenzen brands of "one piece" chargers, and none seem much more reliable than another. Hence the Chargery C10325. Two parts setups like iCharger isn't really on the table as most of us bring the charger along at some point.

Power supply mode: that should indeed work (what some do with the chargery), however at the price of a 24S10P pack I'd rather do the CV phase to avoid premature ageing.

As for balancing, the EUC community have had too many dead battery packs from abuse of 80% charge. The packs are generally large 18650/21700 (1000-3000Wh) and maybe that ups the risk of imbalance compared to most eBikes. As I am looking at replacing the stock charger, I need one that does CV phase for some level of balancing.

edit 2: An other reason for coddling the battery packs is that it is an electric unicycle, if anything fails or you are too low on power you get thrown off at speed (a "faceplant").

edit 3: The C10325 does have a mode for doing CV, but apparently it conflicts with that specific PEV. My question boils down to: can one strip all "smart" functions and just behave as a dumb charger would do CV? (and hopefully work with the Veteran Sherman EUC?)
 
if you want to raw-dog the battery without bullshit elecronics messing stuff up you can just buy 2 meanwell HRP-600-48 and set them in series. or ease down the charge power with a set of HRP-300-48. and save a buck in the meantime. these also have a fan on the back so you can stack them easely.

ps: these things dont break, their intended use case is industrial and medical equipment (just look at their certifications). i have been installed hundreds so far and NEVER had a single one break.
 
Thanks @flippy, I'd love to use MeanWell or any other "safe" brand, especially that LED PSUs have good power to price ratio, but I really need the CV phase, as well as it being portable (as in backpack, charge at restaurants etc).

I appreciate alternative suggestions, it doesn't have to be the Chargery. I've been looking at the XieTong X1200 but as most other it falls into "uncertain reliability" cathegory.
 
The meanwells DO the CV part. They dont stop. That is the whole point.

Yoy need a dumb charger like this. Not anything else. You are overcomplicating what CV actually is and how supplies like meanwell behaves.

And i doubt you will find a charger rhat delivers more power in a smaller or lighter form factor. Esepcially the having 2 of the 300W units weigh nearly nothing in a backpack.
 
They do CV in the sense of constant voltage yes, but they dont lower amps like "Li-ion charging CV" does to reduce wear on the cells. And I really dont want to be more violent to my battery pack than I need to, it costs several months of my revenue after tax and mortgage, and I rely on it not throwing me off at 50km/h (its an electric unicycle, not a bike)

I understand your approach but it doesn't fit my 3100Wh EUC..

Say we ignore the CV question. Weight: I would need 4 x HRP-600-48 to approach 100.8V@10A. That is 4x1,5Kg, so 6Kg, where the Chargery is 2,5Kg and can go to 100.8V@15A. The XieTong is 2,3Kg for 100.8V@12A..

So if I didn't care about CV and used the Chargery in PSU mode it would still be lighter than the Meanwells..

Besides, I'm just not going to use a PSU for charger, I do long distance rides and dont want to reduce mileage and pack life by botching the trickle charge. If you treat your batteries as consumables you swap around, sure go ahead. But it's not my case. I appreciate your contribution though, thank you for the input : )
 
john61ct said:
Just "charge up to X and stop" CC-only is perfectly fine.

X= 4.05V for longevity, especially at a low C-rate, say under 0.4C, very healthy



flippy said:
The meanwells DO the CV part. They dont stop. That is the whole point.

Yoy need a dumb charger like this. Not anything else. You are overcomplicating what CV actually is and how supplies like meanwell behaves.


Dont believe a thing these guys say. Every datasheet specifies termination current for a full charge.

You Are saying you have a rather abrupt termination.. but you want a longer slower termination. For more cell filling accuracy. Currently using such as the likes of a C/5 or a C/10, but you would rather have a C/50 or C/100 taper time and lower termination current. Perfectly reasonable, common to see in the Li world, and certainly achievable, and probably, configurable, with your particular charger.


My 2¢.


Just as resistance climbs in a discharged battery, and resistnce climbs on a charged battery, you aint shoving no more capacity into a charged battery nor are you pulling any out of a discharged one. Because resistance. A smart charger can certainly see this number.







 
Thank you @DogDipstick.
Not sure how your numbers work, but yes that is basically what I'm looking for.

Most built in BMS does some type of balancing around 4.2V, so I have to reach that now and then. Charge toward that level wears on the cells, so that phase is done by lowering the Amperage as the cells get saturated. (You probably know this better than me but I had to spell it out) (Stage 2 on graph)
 
div said:
Thank you @DogDipstick.
Not sure how your numbers work, but yes that is basically what I'm looking for.



(Stage 2 on graph)

Quickly looking at the specification for the Chargery C10325A, I see this in the specs: However, I do not see how to change it from 60% to 5% or in the middle. This is the number you seek. Learn how to: Adjust this number, the taper time will lengthen or shorten.

I know I can adjust this number on a few charger I have experience with.
 

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Thank you for looking into it, good to know that the CV phase can be adjusted with that setting.

The uncertain part is that the C10325 apparently fails to"work properly" (whatever that means) with certain BMS, including the one in my PEV. I find this strange as there shouldn't be much or any dialogue going on, and the source being a few comments on forums, it might also be that the guys missed a setting.

edit: I see the manual states 4.15V as "max terminal charge", could that keep the BMS from balancing? (if it expects 4.2V for cutoff)
 
div said:
They do CV in the sense of constant voltage yes, but they dont lower amps like "Li-ion charging CV" does to reduce wear on the cells.

if you dont understand how battery charging works: JUST SAY SO.

you set the voltage on the charger then the voltage does not go higher then that.same goes with current. once the battery reaches the set voltage the CC part ends and the CV parts begins.

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN HOW ANY OF THESE CHARGERS WORK. THEY ALL DO THE SAME THING.

the only difference iswhen the battery is full that they keep the voltage/output enabled or not so the bms can do its thing. smart chargers do NOT keet the output on, dumb charger do.

div said:
And I really dont want to be more violent to my battery pack than I need to, it costs several months of my revenue after tax and mortgage, and I rely on it not throwing me off at 50km/h (its an electric unicycle, not a bike)
the charger is NOT responisble for you getting yeeted of your vehicle. just like a gas station is not responisble for the engine of your car conking out on the highway.

div said:
I understand your approach but it doesn't fit my 3100Wh EUC..

yes, it does. you just dont understand the principles behind the problem you have created in your mind here.

div said:
Say we ignore the CV question. Weight: I would need 4 x HRP-600-48 to approach 100.8V@10A. That is 4x1,5Kg, so 6Kg, where the Chargery is 2,5Kg and can go to 100.8V@15A. The XieTong is 2,3Kg for 100.8V@12A..
no, you dont need 4 of them. dont be daft. you only need 2 of them. so 2.6 kilos at 13 amps. at least they are amps that dont break.

div said:
So if I didn't care about CV and used the Chargery in PSU mode it would still be lighter than the Meanwells..
it is not

Besides, I'm just not going to use a PSU for charger, I do long distance rides and dont want to reduce mileage and pack life by botching the trickle charge. If you treat your batteries as consumables you swap around, sure go ahead. But it's not my case. I appreciate your contribution though, thank you for the input : )

you dont even understand the basics here so dont thank me. a PSU and a CHARGER are the same bloody thing, a charger is just a regular psu but with a current limiting circuit added. there is litteraly no other difference then that.

lets be perfectly clear and simple to you get this in your head: there are just 2 types of "chargers". smart ones and dumb ones.

the BOTH the smart and dumb ones do EXACTLY the same thing. the ONLY difference is that the smart ones have a TEEENTY TINY bit of electronics in them that sense that the CURRENT has dropped below a certain level and then just shut the output down. wich means the BMS will NEVER be able to do its balancing. "dumb" chargers dont give a frock and just keep the voltage floating at the set voltage no matter the consumption giving the BMS all the time it needs to balance the battery out. wich is EXACTLY what you want. there is nothing else to this conversation then that simple concept.


DogDipstick said:
Dont believe a thing these guys say. Every datasheet specifies termination current for a full charge.
no, they dont. datasheets do NOT say that and stop spreading these bullshit anekdotes from people that cant read basic datasheets. they only tell the specifics they used to TEST the cells. cells dont give a frock about float voltages.
 
Again, there is nothing special about the CV stage

just means "keep going after the max V setpoint is reached"

does nothing positive

and in fact much healthier for the cells to stop earlier, as described above.

Higher charge rate just bump the V a little if you want to store a few more mAh

lower rate, need to bring it down a bit for longevity.

The process of getting cells re-balanced when needed should be a separate maintenance procedure, low rate, overnight or longer

not part of normal everyday fast charging.

Just go as direct to the cells as possible if those other circuits are getting in the way.


Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 
The idea of terminating based on amps tapering down is completely unnecessary

just there to give a "last ditch" stop point to prevent harmful "even more overcharging"

or for precision benchmarking with capacity / stress testing.

So long as you are stopping **earlier**

that is healthier for your cells, the coddling you say you want.

So no CV stage at all is **even better**.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 
@floppy: Is the insulting tone really necessary? Yes I had a brain glitch regarding the combination of PSUs. That’s because I don’t care about PSUs, I’m looking for a charger that does balancing. I don’t want to do partial charge with PSUs, and have my reasons. Let's drop it here, I have no interest in dealing with your despicable attitude.

@john61ct: I'm looking to replace my stock charger (it is no good), so I need a device that allows balancing. I do not wish to do partial charge more often than every 1-2 full cycles (for reasons*). Thus I would prefer travelling (and dealing) with a single device rather than two.

*I know partial charge wears less on the cells, and a PSU can go there, I never said the contrary.. But I also know we've seen several battery packs wind up with dead cells resulting from imbalance due to partial charge. EUCs don't have very evolved BMS, and partial charge is a gamble. On top of that they are large packs which multiplies the possibility of imbalance. The "rule of thumb" for a while was to balance about every 5 cycle. It turns out this isn't enough in our use case, whatever the reason is. Also: EUC BMSs do not use under voltage cutoff to avoid throwing off the rider, thus more risk for cell damage at low voltages (and increasing imbalance)

edit: I didn't go into balancing before because you mentioned it is a different debate, which I agree with.

edit: Here is a recap of EUCs state of BMSs if you care to look.
 
div said:
@floppy: Is the insulting tone really necessary?

it seems so, you wont listen to what is said. as soon as you mention that you dont want a psu but you do want a charger that does not work as a charger but behaves like a "psu" then you need to shut up and just listen because you know jack shit of what you are actually saying or have not even checked what you have been told or learned the basics of lithium charging. you keep saying you want something but you dont want the thing that does what you want it to do. so you tell me. you want something that looks, tastes and smells like strawberry ice but is not strawberry ice.

ps: a charger exists because they have pretty lights and "charger" is more letters so they can charge (little phun there) you more money.

so yes, a "psu" DOES allow balancing, a charger does not. its that simple. you might not want a psu but that is what you need.
 
It is not a "partial charge" to avoid hitting the voltage shoulders, it is a best practice for normal charging.

Allowing your pack to get out of balance is not a result of "partial charging", it is the result of not doing your balancing right.

The bad design of the gear you want to use for balancing should not force you to use poor charging practices and greatly reduce your pack lifespan.

Dealing with larger packs has nothing to do with greater imbalances, I've seen 1800Ah banks that go over a year of daily cycling the delta remaining within 30mV.

If their BMS does a poor job, then don't use them to do your balancing.

There are indeed chargers that do balancing.

There are also dedicated balancers aka non-protective BMS.

But if you are relying on your BMS to do the balancing, you need to be intimately knowledgeable as to how it works. What method of balancing, what is the start voltage, what delta does it stop at, and can these parameters be adjusted?

And in any case, of course you need to be able to see the per-cell/group voltages to be able to tell when the job is done.

Many packs of good quality only need rebalancing every 100 or 200 cycles, this is not a factor that should impact your daily-use normal charging protocol.



Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 
Many packs of good quality only need rebalancing every 100 or 200 cycles, this is not a factor that should impact your daily-use normal charging protocol.

I'd love to have a quality battery pack with a quality BMS that only needs balancing every 100-200 cycles, but it simply isn't what is on the market. With enough time, money and effort it is possible to build one yourself, but I have too many other priorities in life to invest in that.

So I have to deal with the situation as it is: EUC battery packs die if not balanced often. Thus It is more practical for me to relate to one device: a charger that allows balancing by following common practice stages for 18650 li-ion packs. (Like most consumer Li-ion chargers)

Truly, I (and many others) would love to have a battery pack that needs balancing only every 100-200 cycles.
But the one I (and every other EUC) have needs it every few cycles, or less, we can't know for sure.

Anyway, I gave up on the Chargery there are too many reports of it not being quite so reliable. Case closed..

If anyone is interested in debating how to charge EUCs you will get more informed answers over here than from me.
 
is the bms "locked" to the vehicle?

aka: will the thing work with any battery/voltage source connected to it or is the battery vendor locked so it refuses to work when you mess with it? do you have pictures of the pack from the inside? have people already replaced the bms for example?
 
john61ct said:
The idea of terminating based on amps tapering down is completely unnecessary

just there to give a "last ditch" stop point to prevent harmful "even more overcharging"

or for precision benchmarking with capacity / stress testing.

So long as you are stopping **earlier**

that is healthier for your cells, the coddling you say you want.

So no CV stage at all is **even better**.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Not what every bit of documentation I have read says. YOu cannot just ignre the CV period.

For instance: My powerlab, a well accepted tool, used by hobbiest everywhere, has a setting for 1-32s "accurate charge " or "1-32s Normal charge" where the default "Normal" is C/10 and the default "Accurate" is "C/20". They would not have bothered if it did not matter.

Easily log the difference, repeatably every time, on datalog.

You can set any manual termination for anywhere fro 100mA to 10A. ..... and log the discrepancy in SOC easily. This is one of the options. the last option is " Fast" and it is a termination current of C/5.

So I guess Revolectrix is just designing hardware, creating firmware, implimenting software, and selling this feature on the high end chargers for .. "Fun"? Since it really does not matter as some (people, whom) state?

Then selling them with the labels " Accurate, Normal, and Fast" for the hell of it? Since it does not really do anything?



Lol.

I mean it is in the datasheet, that the storage battery engineer slooks at, when deciding upon a cells use, and application. They all have this number, reliably.

This setting exists on every high end charger.. Ichargers, Turnigys, Hyperions.. Company who build chargers will ask you for these things..

I mean, why would the design it into the machines if it did not matter?

If you ignore this number you may not have a reliable product that repeatably does its job with reproducible results.

yeah End subject OP I hope you got it fugured out or at least learned more. I try to show you what is relevant and common in the hobby I see, and this "termination current " is something I use all the time, every charge, every batt w/ reliability.
 
the reason you want to use a termination current is to have a fixed time or moment to call the battery "full". it helps showing the consumer that charging is done. beyond that point very little power is added anyway. nobody wants to buy (or sell) a battery that takes 20 hours to fill.
the only issue that you get is that the bms does not get enough time to balance out the cells if it has to. so for this reason the charger generally turns green/full but keeps the output enabled so the bms can do its thing and the battery slowly fills to the brim.
in order to actually fill a cell to its absolute maximum on a given voltage (it does not matter what voltage that is) it would take MANY hours before you reach the steady state where no more current flows and the cell is fully staturated at that voltage.

a while back i manually balanced a tesla pack (wich has active balancing!) and that fucker took 4 days to balance out and stop taking current. after the 4 days it had finally dropped to 25mA where we called it. it did get most of its lost capacity back once we bolted it back in the car and did a discharge and charge run to relearn the bms. the onboard charger simply refused to do this properly.

dumb chargers = better. (unless you have RC packs with no bms)
 
Dont discard flippys comments, he usually has good info to share.
I think he has just been a bit picked at lately, and is a bit irritated :wink:
(stay with us flippy, dont let it get to you)

Do you really have to run your pack that high for the balancing to start?
I have set my bms to start balancing at something like 3,8-3,9V/cell, and I can run pretty much the end voltage I want without the pack getting out of balance. I really dont see the problem with using a psu to charge it.
 
j bjork said:
Do you really have to run your pack that high for the balancing to start?
I have set my bms to start balancing at something like 3,8-3,9V/cell, and I can run pretty much the end voltage I want without the pack getting out of balance. I really dont see the problem with using a psu to charge it.

dont worry about me. i am fine, just trying to teach people. :wink:

dont forget that no bms that is used in any commerical product (exept cars) balances below 4.2V. they only kick in at 4.25V so you MUST do a full CV charge for as long as is reasonable for the bms to balance the pack.
with brand new batteries this is not really useful but once a battery has a few dozen cycles or is used hard you will want to have a couple hours each time to keep the balance in check. so having a too smart of a charger is not recommended. you are better off with a nice and dumb one and let the bms do its job.

ps: dont start at 3.8V. its WAY too early. even if you cap at 4.05V as some people do you should not trigger the balance below 4V. if you have a 4.1V top you should start balancing around 4.05V. doing it sooner serves no purpose and only makes it worse. if you top out at 4.2V then just start at 4.15 and just use a charger/psu that keeps it output enabled. measwell HRP or ELG/HLG are great for this as they are very accurate and dont break.
 
Ok, the balancing dont seem to have much work to do in my case anyway.
Im using EV (car) batteries from 2015/2016 that are still .001V apart after one year of use.
It only kicks in when the charging goes under 10A, witch is at the cv part of the charge.
(50Ah pack, usually charged at 15-20A)
 
j bjork said:
Ok, the balancing dont seem to have much work to do in my case anyway.

"yet". :roll:

with cells that big just set the balacing to start at 1A if you can and in the last 0.05V of the cycle.
 
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