is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by want to build » Feb 27 2021 11:10pm

HI

i want to buils a 13s 4p with vtc4
sofar the kwelt spot welderseems the cheapes solid way
with precut purenickel stipes
i want it to be water proof
i have my own bms
i plan to use 2 layers of this 0.15 mm nickel prefab sloted stipes one on top of another for better conductivity ?
ill start with xiongda but i build my battery for long term meaning i want to build it conductive enough to take advantage of the vtc4 cell and potential more amp drawning motor

Good i finnaly found a annpowers on aliex that is told be be reliable about the purety.
thery
i m about to my this 5 p yes 5p13s battery case and only use the 4 first line(ther red rectangle will not be used) for my 4p13s and use the remaining place to place my bms(the bms is where mbs will be) in?1a is this a good setup?

could you look at that and tell me if is is coherent or there is something i forgot.. 1b.
the only negative thing i could say is that by taking the last parallel line, some space(nickel tab circulating the cell in parallel between cell in parallel will be different, is that a big problem?


here is the link to look at the case with nickel, i would take the taller 48v black heighet 435
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33022176063.html

concretely
Other questions are
2 is it neccessary to have 2 layers of nickel . or maybe a better questions is even if it is not necessary is it harder to do?
3 how to do it do i spot weld the first layer to the cell and then add the 2nd layer and spot weld at the exact same spot?

4when it will be time to connect the blue end positive and negative of the battery to wire, how to weld the copper wire to the nickel? with leed regular heat welder?


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goatman   100 MW

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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by goatman » Mar 09 2021 1:45am

how many amps is your bms
how many amps is your controller

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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by want to build » Mar 10 2021 12:41am

goatman wrote:
Mar 09 2021 1:45am
how many amps is your bms
how many amps is your controller
HI
As i said , i m construction my battery yes for now BUT AT THE SAME TIME' in prevision for a futur setup more demanding and amp drawning. like futureproof.
Still to answer you quetions i beleive 7 amp is controler and 60amp for bms.

But that is a low drawning setup from what i understand,
I want to build my battery just once . so if it is not too complicated and if it changes something i might use 2 layers of nickelon top of one another? i dont know if it is necessary partly because a dont know exactly how much amp is a DEMAnding setup requiering idont know who are the big demanding motors. ... and i am new to metal conductivity..
here are pic of my pieces and a link where i got the bms
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3288888 ... 4c4ddWwde9
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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by goatman » Mar 10 2021 1:00am

60amps from 4p equals 15 amps per series connection,

pure nickel strip would be 2 layers for series connection

you can try Vortecks on youtube channel to see his early battery builds

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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by want to build » Mar 10 2021 2:25am

hi
wow he has like a lot of videos.
could you point me out one or 2 and why you suggest me to look at them?
tx


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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by want to build » Mar 11 2021 11:55pm

goatman wrote:
Mar 10 2021 3:34am
he shows his mistakes

https://youtu.be/dSncYA35Gqc?list=PL3Rq ... ZcjUV&t=28
Hi
So far he said to uncurve the nickel, clean it with alcohol isopropyp , the cell end too and he makes a line of spot weld on the side of neg side of the cell wich i dont feel it is a good idea cause it would make more dendrites than in the center i think

avoid shortcut, use 100 nickel not nickel plated. di i miss something? test with a wire if unsure.

About spot welding the second layer , do a choose the same spot has where the first weld(cell and 1st layer ) have been made or do i spot weld just 2 or 4 millimeter aside?

..

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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by goatman » Mar 12 2021 12:42am

then he wound up ripping everything off, he did most everything wrong :D

im not a spot welder, you dont solder to the center of the negative, theres an internal connection there

your 15 amps/cell if i remember right, 2 layers for series connections required

you could spot weld that pre-maid nickel that comes in the kit and then spot weld another series connector on top

it also doesnt hurt to keep your battery covered while working on it
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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by want to build » Mar 13 2021 3:39pm

goatman wrote:
Mar 12 2021 12:42am
then he wound up ripping everything off, he did most everything wrong :D

im not a spot welder, you dont solder to the center of the negative, theres an internal connection there

your 15 amps/cell if i remember right, 2 layers for series connections required

you could spot weld that pre-maid nickel that comes in the kit and then spot weld another series connector on top

it also doesnt hurt to keep your battery covered while working on it

IMG_20210303_125317.jpg
very interesting, you are saying that it is important not to spotweld on the center of the negative tab. didnt know that .
where can i learn the dos and dont of spot welding? any time prooved topic that is not300 pages i could learn from?


apart from covering the battery is there anything else wrong with what he did in that video?

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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by want to build » Mar 16 2021 12:54am

goatman wrote:
Mar 12 2021 12:42am
then he wound up ripping everything off, he did most everything wrong :D

im not a spot welder, you dont solder to the center of the negative, theres an internal connection there

your 15 amps/cell if i remember right, 2 layers for series connections required

you could spot weld that pre-maid nickel that comes in the kit and then spot weld another series connector on top

it also doesnt hurt to keep your battery covered while working on it

IMG_20210303_125317.jpg
hello goat man could you point me where you came across this information :you dont solder to the center of the negative, theres an internal connection there thanks

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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by goatman » Mar 16 2021 6:22pm

https://www.battery-solution.com/18650- ... ttery.html

i think spinning magnets mentioned in a thread somewhere that some high powered cells have multiple tabs

if i search ES for multiple tabs

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=106045&p=1553619&h ... s#p1552872

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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by want to build » Mar 18 2021 1:00am

goatman wrote:
Mar 12 2021 12:42am
then he wound up ripping everything off, he did most everything wrong :D

im not a spot welder, you dont solder to the center of the negative, theres an internal connection there

your 15 amps/cell if i remember right, 2 layers for series connections required

you could spot weld that pre-maid nickel that comes in the kit and then spot weld another series connector on top

it also doesnt hurt to keep your battery covered while working on it

IMG_20210303_125317.jpg
Hi goatman, tx for the link . i looked at the image drawing white and black of a cell but i dont see what makes you say
you dont solder to the center of the negative, theres an internal connection there thanks could you tell me from where this idea comes from plz ? seems important.

. I read the post about tesla too but the post talk about inner tab, not nickel to weld on top still interesting

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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by goatman » Mar 18 2021 1:33am

this video is where a cell is opened, copied to current time

https://youtu.be/gYFuVbZmu5M?t=1484

another

https://youtu.be/-KAHiCb_8-s?t=21


lots if vids if you look

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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by want to build » Mar 31 2021 12:24am

hello goat man
i watch them
are you talking about the circle in the middle of the blue cap in video 2?
it is hard to say for me if it is.

a question that also seems important is do other people also avoid spot welding on the neg? not that they know better but i never spot welded, what to do others say do?

i see lot of 6 point solder in the form of a 6 dot dice. what have you noticed?
tx

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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by want to build » Apr 04 2021 7:33pm

goatman wrote:
Mar 18 2021 1:33am
this video is where a cell is opened, copied to current time

https://youtu.be/gYFuVbZmu5M?t=1484

another

https://youtu.be/-KAHiCb_8-s?t=21


lots if vids if you look
hi Scape goat,
i looked at differend video that some recommend like https://youtu.be/4dZTGAcFmtA
andhttps://youtu.be/R8NgGlP6k38
correct me if im wrong but the way they spot weld dont seem to take what you say into account. why is that?
Im not trying to create problem by the way, i not experience, im curious, safety is important and the info you shared seemed important ; at the same time how does it translate?
can you show picture of the way you spot weld to be coherent with the info you bring about ?danger? of welding on center negative side?
tx

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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by goatman » Apr 04 2021 10:01pm

you want me, cast away to carry the sins of the community into the desert?
ya sure, im fine with that :D

i already said above, im not a spot welder

atleast youre out there watching videos :bigthumb:

eventually you need to stop analyzing and just do it

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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by want to build » Apr 09 2021 7:46pm

goatman wrote:
Apr 04 2021 10:01pm
you want me, cast away to carry the sins of the community into the desert?
ya sure, im fine with that :D

i already said above, im not a spot welder

atleast youre out there watching videos :bigthumb:

eventually you need to stop analyzing and just do it
hello Goatman, english is my second language and i struggle to understand you sentence.
Are you saying that some people from the site told you to go away? that would be sad.
To carry their sins into the desert ... hum i dont understand what it mean. do you mean you would be even more lonely if you say their technique is not good?

I have spend do much time with this project i cannot afford to just do it and see after..
Correct me if im wrong but are you saying that what you said is more theory but in practical way it is ok to solder on the center of tops?
tx

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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by goatman » Apr 09 2021 8:13pm

youre getting lost on spot welding to the center of the negative end

its kind of a non issue

60 amps from 5p

thats 12 amps per cell
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if you are dead set on spot welding to the center
where are the rest of the spot welds going to be ????

how are you going to spot weld to the center with strip like this
download (3).jpg
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just look around the site at how everyone spot welds their batteries

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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by want to build » Apr 09 2021 10:53pm

goatman wrote:
Apr 09 2021 8:13pm
youre getting lost on spot welding to the center of the negative end

its kind of a non issue

60 amps from 5p

thats 12 amps per cell

download (2).jpg

if you are dead set on spot welding to the center
where are the rest of the spot welds going to be ????

how are you going to spot weld to the center with strip like this

download (3).jpg

just look around the site at how everyone spot welds their batteries
hi
i feel confuse now cause before i read im not a spot welder, you dont solder to the center of the negative, theres an internal connection there, and now i read welding to the center of the negative end its kind of a non issue.
did you change you mind mean while?. it would be ok.

just to clarify i see 2 definition to center, one in blue the other in red so from what you said first it would be better to avoid spot welding there.
my observation is not clear as if people avoid it . maybe some do non intentionally .
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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by goatman » Apr 09 2021 11:23pm

id stay away from spot welding in the red circle

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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by want to build » Apr 09 2021 11:26pm

goatman wrote:
Apr 09 2021 11:23pm
id stay away from spot welding in the red circle
tx for clarity . would you be offended if i ask others their take on that?

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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by goatman » Apr 10 2021 9:26am

want to build wrote:
Apr 09 2021 11:26pm
goatman wrote:
Apr 09 2021 11:23pm
id stay away from spot welding in the red circle
tx for clarity . would you be offended if i ask others their take on that?
not at all

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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by 99t4 » Apr 10 2021 8:31pm

Maybe this helps?
https://www.electricbike.com/inside-18650-cell/

(Careful, the section "Individual cell-fusing" is under controversy. Possible that those are not truly designed to act as fuses, but rather just a convenient cell connecting method appropriate to Tesla's battery manufacturing equipment [ultrasonic bonding machine?] and battery pack materials.)

But there is a cutaway drawing near the end of the article that shows the center pin connection to the bottom (anode)(-) end of the cell. That's where you want to avoid welding.

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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by want to build » Apr 13 2021 11:01pm

99t4 wrote:
Apr 10 2021 8:31pm
Maybe this helps?
https://www.electricbike.com/inside-18650-cell/

(Careful, the section "Individual cell-fusing" is under controversy. Possible that those are not truly designed to act as fuses, but rather just a convenient cell connecting method appropriate to Tesla's battery manufacturing equipment [ultrasonic bonding machine?] and battery pack materials.)

But there is a cutaway drawing near the end of the article that shows the center pin connection to the bottom (anode)(-) end of the cell. That's where you want to avoid welding.
very very interesting. i read it twice some parts more

The txt says either this cell didn t have a burst disc or. the vents were soldered over so that any pressure that was building couldn't blow in the direction the designers intended..
so...1) by spot welding are we negating this protective device? or 2) is it just true for soldering(looks like lead traditionnal soldering) ? My cells are sony vtc4 so i guess they have such a safety valve but 3) how to spot woeld or not to spot weld to keep this protection available?

-one thing i did not understand is when he says # read farther below, you will see that I do NOT recommend soldering onto the negative anode of the cell (the flat bottom), but…I actually believe that…with the right tools and techniques?.
4 )what does he mean assomption not said maybe?
5) then where does he make the anode connection?
6)unless what he meant is that spotwelding the neg anode bottom is ok but not lead solder? do you understand his meaning?
he writes you can solder and weldspot a fusewire on the cathode but nowhere i have found a place in this article where he says what to do to connect the anode flat... 7)did i miss something ?
8)is a wire necessary on both side of the cell?

Some videos i have found in my research for safety showed that soldering heats the inner cell much more than spot welding so 9)why exactly does he suggest soldering the positive? Also having read some of his post i beleive he shows picture where he spotwelded both sides not sure though.

10)Would you say that the point of suggesting me to read the link is to look at the image and not to suggest me going in the way of using fuse wire?

i guess that is the image you are talking about ..
from looking at it i see that there is a rod in the middle no 13 i dont know what is made of ,
11) if is its structural or to conduct.

i see also that there is a no11 insulator .
i seed a tetris L laid down on the right of the picture , didnt get
12)what is its function plus
13)is there only one of these L-piece(dark) on the bottom flat ( like if you draw a ray of 360 circle) or since the drawing is a cut vision si the Lpiece in reality a pie mould(or plate with high edges 360 degre).

14)where is the connection (place to avoid) goatman talks about( part no plz or drawing circling would be appreciated.
I looked at the videos of opening a cell , apart from proofing that a cell is made out of ribbons and insulators ,
15) was i supposed to see the connections (flat neg) goat man is talking about?

I know that is a lot of questions, i would apreciate if you could answer them all even if the answer is dont know. i know many people read stuff and pick only one or 2 questions but it leaves a lot of holes and i have a need for clarity. Also i feel i made my due homeworks reading stuff and investing myself wich all people do so even if you are not paid to answer, i mean you are free, it would help me , im serious and want not people frying from my battery made not taking into accounts the way cells are made.

tx cant wait to read you.
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Re: is there a prob in this battery diy plan with prebuid case?

Post by 99t4 » Apr 14 2021 12:42am

want to build wrote:
Apr 13 2021 11:01pm
I know that is a lot of questions, i would apreciate if you could answer them all even if the answer is dont know.
OK, I don't know, for all the questions except for your question #10:
want to build wrote:
Apr 13 2021 11:01pm
10)Would you say that the point of suggesting me to read the link is to look at the image and not to suggest me going in the way of using fuse wire?
No, the point suggesting you read the link was mainly for you to see the image (BTW, not that image you referred to with all the numbers, but the one before it) to see where the center pin meets the bottom anode (-) cap, in the center, where it is not recommended to solder, or even spotweld. As you seemed to be unsure of the reason to avoid heat-stressing that immediate area.

I mentioned the (not)fuses, as, since that article was written, there has arisen some controversy on whether those are even in fact fuses. Didn't want anyone reading this in the future to get the wrong idea either.

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