Soliciting advice for 18650 cell choice in 2021 (+ 25R pack performance recap)

So I've been running a series 10S8P split pack of Samsung 25Rs in the original blue wrappers since 2015, and frankly they've been really great. I've probably put them through roughly 150+ or so charge cycles always staying within the limits of 4.1V-3.25V/cell, and CAv3 reports an overall pack resistance .09 to .095 ohms today from .07 ohms originally.

While my packs are still going strong, after installing the Nucular 12F controller, the "more power" bug has hit hard. I can't stop thinking about it, I need to upgrade! LOL.

Normally I'd just push the 25R's harder, but my pack construction was not ideal having used only .15x7mm thick nickel H-strips to make the series connections so I've always limited the total battery amps to 50 which resulted in a maximum 4kW discharge limit (talk about babying the 25Rs). I want to double this limit with a new pack, and rather than try and increase the current carrying capacity of my old packs, another reason I want to upgrade is to increase total capacity.

The split pack configuration has worked out very well for me - parallel config for charging, relying on the icharger3010b for balancing, and series config in use. I'm planning to continue to use a split pack configuration, but fit 10S10P this time around. With a 100A battery limit, the max current/cell would be 10A. That said, the three characteristics I'm looking for with new 18650 cells are:

1. Relatively low voltage sag under a max 10A/cell load
2. Increased capacity over the 2500 mah 25Rs
3. Longevity equal to or better than what I've gotten with the 25Rs.

I've been poking around the forum to gauge what's what in 2021, and honestly, things don't look too much different for cylindrical li-ion cells coming from the 2014/2015 era. Based mostly on Docware's excellent Li-ion cells cycle aging thread and the contributing posts there, it looks like the cells that would best suit my requirements are:

1. Sony VTC6
2. LG HG2
3. Sony VTC5D (just throwing these in the mix as this looks comparable to the VTC6 and the vendor I bought from last time appears to offer these as an option as well)

That said, anyone have a strong opinion one way or the other as to which batteries I should choose? Or better yet, any insiders think I should wait a little longer for some new next level battery that's just about to hit the market?

hg2.

just keep your 25R, strip the packs apart, use a dremel with a blue grind wheel to clean up the spot welds, but a ton of new 25R's and equalize the old cells with the new cells so each P group has the same amount of old cells, then top off with new ones.

if you actually babied your 25R's with slow charging i doubt they have been hurt in their capacity much. no need to toss good cells if you are looking to save a buck and are willing to spend some hours stripping and cleaning cells.

pro tip: make the pack 20S and halve your current. :wink:
(the controller does not care about volts, just amps. more volts means less amps means more efficient.)

So I definitely spoke too soon, turns out this is probably the worst time to try and build a new battery pack using any kind of "in-demand" battery cells. After emailing the vendor I used before, their reply:

Unfortunately, most of the cells have been <in a> shortage since this year. Raw materials shortage, Covid-19, sudden huge orders from other customers, etc. has brought Samsung, Panasonic and Murata lower production capacity.

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Out of stock. Stepping back and looking at the macro market environment for a moment, it looks like it isn't just "chip shortages" affecting the economy. I've been following the lumber market at a distance purely through updates by a Youtuber and while prices for lumber/building supplies have skyrocketed 400%+ over the last year, there are some indicators and comments remarking about large build-ups in inventory in the lumber yards giving some evidence that the price spikes aren't being caused by a production bottleneck. This is total speculation, but I think the price spikes and lack of availability for these batteries might be a combination of shipping/logistic bottlenecks somewhat, but more of a hording behavior by large customers anticipating inflation and production shortages causing them to hedge their bets by buying all available inventory (especially as money/debt remains cheap and EV demand keeps going up). The hording behavior of anticipating inflation is literally causing the inflation to manifest, now visible in the battery market (or perhaps it has been for a while, I've only just started paying attention).

OK, enough about speculative economic behavior, the bottom-line is I'm not paying $8-$9+ dollars per cell! Especially when batteries are suppose to be getting cheaper from when I was in the market last, and so much for production improvements over the last 6 years! As for the ideal cell for my situation, after some more research I'm going to answer my original question. Hopefully that's less annoying and more so potentially helpful.

I discovered Mooch's 18650 cell benchmarks from the e-cigarettes forum and he's published data I need to help rank my cell choices: Discharge charts at 10A. Very nice. If you're interested or haven't seen these before, open the following tabs and flip back and forth for the sake of comparison:

1. Sony/Murata VTC6
2. Samsung 30Q
3. Sony/Murata VTC6A
4. LG HG2
5. Sony/Murata VTC5D

If the only thing I cared about was capacity and performance, that is larger area under the curve correlating to both capacity and voltage sag under 10A load, this ranking would be it and I'd select the VTC6 cells for my new packs. However, I'm also interested in capacity decay which is where docware and Pajda's comparisons factor in. Apparently, for high power 18650 li-ion batteries capacity loss occurs quickest in roughly the first 50 cycles, then continues to decrease more linearly and in a slower fashion after that. In real world conditions, ebikes aren't seeing these large continuous loads until depletion as with tests; however, they are still being cycled so while the initial decay may not be as dramatic, characterizing the capacity decay is still a very useful indicator of long-term performance/longevity IMO.

Judging by Pajda's chart comparing the 30Q, HG2, and VTC6, at a higher continuous discharge than my cells would ever see (15A), the HG2 loses initial capacity the quickest; however, it also has the best long-term stability in terms of capacity retention by a long shot. After 250 cycles, it is really remarkable. If I was commuting on an ebike, this would absolutely be my #1 battery cell choice. Based on my previous ebike use, I'll plan for a max of 50 cycles/year with a minimum 5-year shelf life which, realistically, doesn't really disqualify any of these batteries.

Another performance metric docware was/is working on characterizing was the self-discharge rate at 50% and 100% SOC. Frankly his findings with the Samsung 30Q self-discharge rate was very disturbing. I don't know if the sample he was testing was from a bad batch or what, but that kind of result is perhaps enough to disqualify it as an option without more to go on like a guarantee from the battery vendor.

All that min/maxing comparison info being said, the last and most important consideration for cell choice is availability and economics. Which leads me right back to where I started, the cells aren't available and the prices are too damn high!

Looking at the market, the best cells I can find in the high performance category for a reasonable price right now is the Molicel P26A (2600mAh) from bulkbattery.com. This wouldn't really be a great improvement, on paper anyway, over the Samsung 25R's I'm currently using, and it's difficult to assess how they stack up in terms of cycle capacity decay to see if it's even worth paying a premium for those (3000mAh) cells that you have to pay a premium for even without the current battery market distortions.

And that's the point of writing all of this, considering the fast initial capacity decay rates of the 3000mAh cells, the question is: are these cells even worth it over Samsung 25Rs or Molicel P26As. For example, if the Molicel is only decaying say 100 mah in the first 100+ cycles ending up in the same exact place as most of the higher capacity cells then they probably wouldn't be worth it for most people.

Conclusion: need more data.

flippy said:

just keep your 25R, strip the packs apart, use a dremel with a blue grind wheel to clean up the spot welds, but a ton of new 25R's and equalize the old cells with the new cells so each P group has the same amount of old cells, then top off with new ones.

if you actually babied your 25R's with slow charging i doubt they have been hurt in their capacity much. no need to toss good cells if you are looking to save a buck and are willing to spend some hours stripping and cleaning cells.

pro tip: make the pack 20S and halve your current. :wink:
(the controller does not care about volts, just amps. more volts means less amps means more efficient.)

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Realistically, given the state of the battery market, this may be my best option. I'd say I still have at least 85% capacity in each of the cell groups so yeah, this might be the way to go. I'd be going from Samsung 25R(1?) to it looks like 25R8 they're on, but the groups will always equalize cell voltage so i guess it wouldn't matter. At 10S16P they were always charged under 1.5A/cell.

No worries, always run at 20S8P. The Nucular stays basically at ambient regardless, it's ridiculous. It wants more power for sure .

you can look at the first 2 pages of the desulfate thread

Hmm, I didn't see a repeated cycle test that would slot in neatly to Pajda's chart for the 25R. I ordered an EBD-A20H Battery Capacity Tester a few days ago and I have a few extra 25Rs from my 2015 batch I never did anything with, so I'm going to attempt a similar high cycle test with 15A load so I can compare directly with Pajda's data. Planning on doing another one at 10A also just for curiosity's sake.

ebd-a20, isnt that limited to 5 amps?
no thats not right
it doesnt charge
why the ebd-a20 instead of the ebc-a20?
does it cycle test?

goatman is right, if you need battery cycler, you should pick EBC-A20. EBD-A20H is only DC load without charging function.

And thanks for correcting my ES nickname

Thanks for pointing that out guys, my order hadn't shipped and I was able to change my order to EBC-A20 just now.

And thanks for correcting my ES nickname

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No problem, thank you for sharing that chart!

Speaking of, I've been giving it some more thought, and if I'm able to get a relatively reasonable price on batteries sometime in the near future, I'm now leaning more toward the HG2's despite the higher internal resistance and quicker initial capacity decay over the aforementioned options. With the new pack, the bike will basically be in it's final form so it's making more sense to me to weigh longevity + capacity over optimal initial performance.

Spoke with another vendor on the phone today who mentioned that the LG HG2's had been discontinued [for them to order?]. Didn't get much more from them than that, but I found this thread where a rep from liionwholesale dropped some battery industry info which brought relevant context to the discontinued comment I received earlier.

It looks like LG was unhappy with "misuse" of their unprotected cells in e-cigarettes and decided to limit market access. Sign of the times...

On the topic of Molicel from that thread, while they don't have direct HG2 or VTC6 competitor available yet, according to the liionwholesale rep, they're working on one which is also interesting. In any case, the P28A looks like a VTC5D competitor, and considering the state of the battery market today, that might be an acceptable/realistic substitution.

For 2021 I can recommend to look for Samsung 30Q6 version. I got samples for testing recently and my results can confirm informations from Samsung "Introduction of New 18650 30Q6" presentation. This new model have slightly lower DCIR but more important there has been made a huge improvement in cycle life.

By the way all new models of Samsung cells, such as 40T3 and 50G represent a huge improvement.

vanturion said:

Spoke with another vendor on the phone today who mentioned that the LG HG2's had been discontinued [for them to order?]. Didn't get much more from them than that, but I found this thread where a rep from liionwholesale dropped some battery industry info which brought relevant context to the discontinued comment I received earlier.

It looks like LG was unhappy with "misuse" of their unprotected cells in e-cigarettes and decided to limit market access. Sign of the times...

On the topic of Molicel from that thread, while they don't have direct HG2 or VTC6 competitor available yet, according to the liionwholesale rep, they're working on one which is also interesting. In any case, the P28A looks like a VTC5D competitor, and considering the state of the battery market today, that might be an acceptable/realistic substitution.

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HG4 are the same cells. :wink:
they did not even bother to change anything on the datasheets.

Pajda said:

For 2021 I can recommend to look for Samsung 30Q6 version. I got samples for testing recently and my results can confirm informations from Samsung "Introduction of New 18650 30Q6" presentation. This new model have slightly lower DCIR but more important there has been made a huge improvement in cycle life.

By the way all new models of Samsung cells, such as 40T3 and 50G represent a huge improvement.

Click to expand...

Is it fair to say they're now as good as VTC6, or still too early to tell? Maybe docware could do another ageing test to see how they compare with his previous VTC6 test now that IMR price is $8.99ea or $899 for 100 (no quantity discounts).

Interesting article ... The newly upgraded samsung 30QT-6 has stronger power ... https://budgetlightforum.com/node/73361

Received my 30Q "6 KH1T" cells on 1/12/21 from IMR. Had ordered 30Q "141" at $4.50ea, but IMR instead sent "6 KH1T" (at same price) instead of "141" with no explanation for the switch after three calls to IMR customer service. IMR now has them priced at $7.99ea without any quantity discount. An order for 100 is $799.00. For that price they must be "newly improved upgraded" although IMR web page still shows them as "141" ... https://www.imrbatteries.com/samsung-30q-18650-3000mah-15a-battery/ ... IMR was tight-lipped with NO explanation for the switch in my order from "141" to "6 KH1T" ... and now a substantial price increase for same new improved 30Q "6" with quantity discounts as low as $4.35ea back in January, but no more.The ONLY thing IMR would tell me after 3 calls is that the WARNING label was printed by Samsung (well duh), and i never brought up anything about the WARNING label.

"6 KH1T" (K means 2020/H means May/1 means first week/T means Tianjin, China factory ... https://pulsenews.co.kr/view.php?year=2021&no=228161). All "6 KH1T" cells had the same code imprints ("K55A1" - 2nd code down on metal can) different from pink wrap label - "KH1T" (see photos).

I'm running an ongoing 30Q "141"/"6 KH1T" real-life test to see if any of the "6 KH1T" in my experimental 10S3P pack suffer from self-discharge after 100 cycles ... won't know until pack disassembly and testing each of the twenty "141" cells and ten "6 KH1T" cells for any degree of self-discharge variance over 5 days, 10 days and 15 days later this year.

Pajda said:

For 2021 I can recommend to look for Samsung 30Q6 version. I got samples for testing recently and my results can confirm informations from Samsung "Introduction of New 18650 30Q6" presentation. This new model have slightly lower DCIR but more important there has been made a huge improvement in cycle life.

By the way all new models of Samsung cells, such as 40T3 and 50G represent a huge improvement.

Click to expand...

That's good to know, speaking of - will we need to wait for next Christmas for an updated cycle chart :wink:?

For discussions sake, I pulled up that 30Q6 presentation:





Are OEMs always generous in their performance classifications? Probably a dumb question.



The scale differs here as Mooch only cycles to 2.8V, but his real world results differ which makes you wonder about capacity decay claims..



In any case, I'm definitely curious how the 30Q6 improvements stack up in testing if you're planning on sharing more test data! With the "high-demand" batteries having entered the realm of uneconomic pricing and unavailability however, these comparisons are quickly becoming kinda of a moot point to me.

flippy said:

HG4 are the same cells. :wink:
they did not even bother to change anything on the datasheets.

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Haha great, not that this matters much if LG is not making their high performance unprotected cells available for individual sale/use anymore!

eMark said:

...
IMR was tight-lipped with NO explanation for the switch in my order from "141" to "6 KH1T" ... and now a substantial price increase for same new improved 30Q "6" with quantity discounts as low as $4.35ea back in January, but no more.The ONLY thing IMR would tell me after 3 calls is that the WARNING label was printed by Samsung (well duh), and i never brought up anything about the WARNING label.

"6 KH1T" (K means 2020/H means May/1 means first week/T means Tianjin, China factory ... https://pulsenews.co.kr/view.php?year=2021&no=228161). All "6 KH1T" cells had the same code imprints ("K55A1" - 2nd code down on metal can) different from pink wrap label - "KH1T" (see photos).
...

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It seemed like the price increases and availability issues starting happening in the last 2-3 months based on little to no prior customer complaints in the host of forums/social media I investigated. Thanks for letting us know, it is always good to share information on vendors who do not deliver what is ordered. Sucks that happened to you though.

From what you said, it's still a little unclear to me about which codes DO designate the 30Q6 vs a older 30Q iteration. Are we suppose to divine based on the date and factory of origin codes which sites have switched from producing 30Q to 30Q6? More of an open question to Samsung there.

vanturion said:

Sucks that happened to you though.

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Not really if they are an improved upgrade over 30Q "141" (as Pajda and others believe). When attempting to find out why the switch by IMR i was actually hoping customer service might say they were a "141" upgrade, but no such comment. It was as if IMR customer service was out of the loop and told not to say anything other than that the WARNING! label was printed by Samsung.

vanturion said:

From what you said, it's still a little unclear to me about which codes DO designate the 30Q6 vs a older 30Q iteration. Are we suppose to divine based on the date and factory of origin codes which sites have switched from producing 30Q to 30Q6? More of an open question to Samsung there.

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It's as if the "KH1T" (now on the pink wrap label) supersedes the code that used to be imprinted on the metal can of 30Q 136 & 141.

Yes it's confusing when the metal can code is different (K55A1) from the pink wrap label (KH1T) code ... K is 2020/H is May/1 is first week/T is Tianjin, China factory code was previously imprinted on metal can. No one yet seems to know how to decipher K55A1 metal can code or if it is even of any importance for us to know -- now that the more important code is printed on the pink wrap label instead of the metal can.

vanturion said:

Haha great, not that this matters much if LG is not making their high performance unprotected cells available for individual sale/use anymore!

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i bought a box of them last month at my local supplier....

eMark said:

Not really if they are an improved upgrade over 30Q "141" (as Pajda and others believe). When attempting to find out why the switch by IMR i was actually hoping customer service might say they were a "141" upgrade, but no such comment.

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Ah, got it - hope they test well for you then.

flippy said:

i bought a box of them last month at my local supplier....

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Care to share where price/source? Everywhere I look online, it's a combination of high prices and no-volume discounts if they're even in stock or just plain OOS. That's bulkbattery, liionwholesale, evva-tech, 18650batterystore, imrbatteries, etc.

https://ru.nkon.nl/rechargeable/li-ion/18650-size/lg-18650he2-imr-battery.html

or refurbisched ones if you are looking for a deal: https://ru.nkon.nl/rechargeable/li-ion/18650-size/lg-icr18650-he4-2500mah-20a.html

eMark said:

Is it fair to say they're now as good as VTC6, or still too early to tell?

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I think that only reason for going with VTC6 is its overall "production stability". In case of price and performace VTC6 is beaten by 30Q "141" or HG2 in majority of tests, but those two cells suffers with problems like sudden self-discharge (30Q) or sudden-death after they passed 500 cycles (both). So 30Q6 now outperform VTC6 in almost every torture tests, but I cannot tell if the above mentioned problems was solved.

eMark said:

Received my 30Q "6 KH1T" cells on 1/12/21 from IMR. Had ordered 30Q "141" at $4.50ea, but IMR instead sent "6 KH1T" (at same price) instead of "141" with no explanation for the switch after three calls to IMR customer service. IMR now has them priced at $7.99ea without any quantity discount. An order for 100 is $799.00. For that price they must be "newly improved upgraded" although IMR web page still shows them as "141" ... IMR was tight-lipped with NO explanation for the switch in my order from "141" to "6 KH1T" ... and now a substantial price increase for same new improved 30Q "6" with quantity discounts as low as $4.35ea back in January, but no more.The ONLY thing IMR would tell me after 3 calls is that the WARNING label was printed by Samsung (well duh), and i never brought up anything about the WARNING label.

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I don't think these two issues have a direct connection. I think that price increase is caused by situation on the market, not the release of the new 30Q6 generation itself.

As for the markings, i believe that Samsung is trying to unify the generation markings according to the new pattern, which now use a single digit as mark for the generation with the four digit production code, both on the third row on the wrap. We can see this pattern on all of its production like 20S, 25R, 29E, 35E, 50E, 33J, ... So as for the 30Q the generation marking went from 136 -> 141 -> 6 -> ?7?. For example for 25R should be the latest generation 8.

And the fact that majority of cell distributors/shops knows very little about what they actually selling doesn't surprise me at all. :?

Thanks for your updated reply :thumb:

Pajda said:

I think that only reason for going with VTC6 is its overall "production stability".

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Don't most believe that VTC6 still has better "production stability" (including QC) than does the recent (improved?) 30Q6 (no consumer track record yet). Similar analogy might be comparison of Toyota/Honda (VTC6) to Hyundai/KIA (30Q6) with some believing VTC4,5,6 is beholding closer to Japan's long-standing tradition of "zero defects" (passed along to Murata/Sony) than does South Korea when it comes to "quality management" and "production stability" (e.g. similar analogy being Japan's Toyota and Honda engines "proven reliability" from Honda motorcycle engine popularity in the 60s to today's Honda lawnmower engines and reliable Honda and Toyota engines at Indy500 and NASCAR races.

Pajda said:

In case of price and performace VTC6 is beaten by 30Q "141" or HG2 in majority of tests, but those two cells suffers with problems like sudden self-discharge (30Q) or sudden-death after they passed 500 cycles (both). So 30Q6 now outperform VTC6 in almost every torture tests, but I cannot tell if the above mentioned problems was solved.

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The jury is still out on which suffers more from significant self-discharge, but my bias is that 30Q"6" is more significant than VTC"6" (with the cap closing) ... just as Toyota and Honda car engines are still thought to be more reliable than either Hyundai and KIA automotive engines (without significant proof).

After 170 cycles in 2020 my Vruzend 10S3P 30Q "141" experimental test pack had 4 "141" cells with minimal self-discharge after resting 14 days; 6 "141" cells with significant self-discharge after 14 days rest, and 20 out of 30 "141" cells with no discharge over 0.005v after 44 days (still between 3.75v to 3.74v after 44 days). I replaced nine "141" cells suffering from high self-discharge with nine 30Q "T6" cells. In preliminary testing with my MiBoxer C4 out of ten "T6" cells one suffered from high self-discharge. I say "T6" as we don't know if all future 30Q "6" cells will be manufactured only in Tianjin, China factory.

Won't know until Oct/Nov when i disassemble pack (after at least another 100 cycles) if other "T6" cells suffer from self-discharge. So far (bottom balancing before bulk charging) all 30 (21 "141" and 9 "T6") cells are performing well ... although the experimental 10S3P pack never rests more than 2 days at the most before being charged again to 41 volts at 1.5amps (0.5C). Nine of the "141" cells (after 170 cycles) suffered from high enough self-discharge to be replaced with nine "T6" cells.

Pajda said:

As for the markings, i believe that Samsung is trying to unify the generation markings according to the new pattern, which now use a single digit as mark for the generation with the four digit production code, both on the third row on the wrap. We can see this pattern on all of its production like 20S, 25R, 29E, 35E, 50E, 33J, ... So as for the 30Q the generation marking went from 136 -> 141 -> 6 -> ?7?.

Click to expand...

Is it a stretch to conclude that the TC in VTC6 stands for Tianjin, China factory and 30Q6 is borrowed from VTC6 being both are manufactured in same facility ??? Do we yet know if all future 30Q "6" cells will only be produced in Tianjin, China factory? Therefore we only need to refer to them as "6" and not "T6" as does the BudgetLightForum ... https://budgetlightforum.com/node/73361

Reminds me of when my dad's generation figured out in the '60s that Texaco, Shell, etc were all produced at the same refinery and other than octane blends and marketing hype/lingo there wasn't any difference worth arguing about other than one's personal preference (e.g. Toyota v Honda or Hyundai v KIA or Chevy v Ford or John Deere v Farmall (IH)).

Similarly you are apparently convinced that the new 30Q6 has a slight edge over VTC6 if for no other reason than possibly because it is a more recent addition to 18650 cell development than is VTC6. IF in fact 30Q6 is really and improvement over VTC6 than Samsung should have branded it as 30Q7. Maybe the line of delineation is more personal preference/bias than fact. Being VTC6 still costs more than 30Q6 one might conclude that VTC6 still has a leg up on 30Q6 :wink:

Voltaplex (China) lists 74 18650 cells including: VTC4, VTC5, VTC6 and 30Q as NMC chemistry and 17 18650 cells as NCA chemistry ... https://voltaplex.com/lithium-ion-battery/18650-battery?is_ajax=1&limit=24&s_chemabv=21.

After a decade ES members still aren't certain whether VTC4,5,6 and 30Q are NCA or NMC chemistry or some in between "hybrid" (proprietary secret) chemistry. It wasn't long before becoming a member at ES that i posted at the beginning of the ageing thread about 18650 "hybrid chemistry" and what, if any, relevance it may have to docware's ageing thread. john promptly reported me to ES administration which almost got me banned from the ageing thread even though fechter later sent me a PM wondering what in my post was worthy of an ES PM rebuke (thanks to you know who). Later i posted on the ageing thread (page 14) the following chart as chemistry was now of some interest (without any adverse comment from this time) ...

Speaking of production stability or rather the state of the battery market,

Mooch from the e-cig forums put out a report that's highly relevant to buyers in my shoes. Conclusion: each of the 4 VTC6s, HG2s, and 30Qs he received this month from an otherwise reputable seller were all fakes. Discussion thread and report here.

This pushed me over and I sprung for the P28As from liionwholesale (basically a VTC5D competitor). While they're not 3000mAh, or even consistently test at 2800mAh from the factory as reported, they can be had for an OK price in bulk, I don't have to worry about counterfeits, and like the HG2s, they claim an attractive capacity decay to 500 cycles.



No clue what calendar life will be like, but if they beat my 25Rs, that'd be great. I ordered a couple extra so I'll likely run a cycle test at least partially before I assemble the packs to verify the manufacturing performance claim above.

when doing the p42a cycle test, i couldnt get a consistent mah loss/cycle til i put more amps to it and raised its temperature

might be something to watch for when you cycle test the molicel

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=107573&p=1616035&hilit=p42a#p1616035

i had the same problem trying to find genuine 30Q and hg2
havent found a genuine hg2 yet

vanturion said:

That's good to know, speaking of - will we need to wait for next Christmas for an updated cycle chart :wink:?

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Good question, is there any worldwide public holiday around? The Samsung 30Q6 is already running in the tester. :wink: