How Many Series Cells In Following Configurations ... Advantage Of The More The Better ?

See last post #45 on p.2

How many series cells in this Lithium-ion battery configuration ?


Whar's the most number of series cells possible in this triangular Lithium-ion battery configuration ?


What's the most number of series cells possible in this triangular Lithium-ion battery configuration ?


What's the most number of series cells in this battery configuration ?


Of the above 10s battery configuratons which one has the best chance of the most c/d cycle life longevity and which the least IF the ONLY variable is the number of its series cells ? This might make for an informative Round Table discussion among Lithium-ion eletrical engineers with Elon Musk as Facilitator.

In the above diagrams (for the sake of discussion) assume each 1st Rate new series cell and new parallel cell (same brand and rating) has been tested so that only the BEST are used in the above four DIY 10s builds. Only the cells having a variance no greater than 3mV from one another are used in the above DIY 10s builds.

First, decide how many cells will fit. You can make the pack smaller, but...more cells will not fit.

The number of cells in series determines the voltage. For instance you can get 100V with only 28 cells, in a pack that 28S / 1P

When a group of cells are bundled and all of their positives are connected together, along with all of their negatives...the charger and controller treat it like its one large cell. Doing this is called a "parallel" connection.

A large parallel group of cells does not increase the voltage, but it does increase the amount of range, and also the amount of available amps.

spinningmagnets said:

First, decide how many cells will fit. You can make the pack smaller, but...more cells will not fit.

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Of all the ES members you are probably the one most knowledgeable for determining ABAP (as best as possible) the number of series cells in each of the above four 10s battery configurations. The number of parallel cells is easy for even a 5th grader to count.

Is it that it's so obvious or that it's not so obvious how many series cells there are in each of those four 10s battery configuratons ? Your answer does seem rather evasive with respect to the number of series cells or am i missing something :wink:

Your above (parallel) reply is common knowledge. Just because a battery is 10s doesn't mean it only has ten series cells. Even if it was only a 10s2p Li-ion battery could it not have 20 series cells and 20 parallel cells ?

By ... "Advantage Of The More The Better ?" ... was referring to the number of series (not parallel) cells in the above four 10s configurations ... by the way thanks for letting me borrow those images from your "series" thread ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=108006

It sounds like you are debating "higher volts with lower amps" vs "higher amps with lower volts"...with both packs using the same number of cells?

14S / 10P = 140 cells

10S / 14P = 140 cells

spinningmagnets said:

It sounds like you are debating "higher volts with lower amps" vs "higher amps with lower volts"...with both packs using the same number of cells?

14S / 10P = 140 cells

10S / 14P = 140 cells

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NOT AT ALL ... All four configurations are 10S. Again the question is how many series cells are there in each of those four 10S battery configurations. You give the impression that there are only ten series cells in each of those four 10S battery configurations. Is that what you really believe ? Even if it was only a 10s2p Li-ion battery could it not have 20 series cells and 20 parallel cells and likewise if it was a 10s5p could it not have 50 series cells as well as 50 parallel cells ?

How many series cells in this Lithium-ion battery configuration ?


Whar's the most number of series cells possible in this triangular Lithium-ion battery configuration ?


What's the most number of series cells possible in this triangular Lithium-ion battery configuration ?


What's the most number of series cells in this battery configuration ?

eMark said:

Even if it was only a 10s2p Li-ion battery could it not have 20 series cells and 20 parallel cells ?

By ... "Advantage Of The More The Better ?" ... was referring to the number of series (not parallel) cells in the above four 10s configurations ... by the way thanks for letting me borrow those images from your "series" thread ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=108006

Click to expand...

The first battery shown at the top is 4S / 15P

The second one down is 20S / 6P

Third (on the computer screen) is 10S / 10P.

The bottom one is 4S / 15P
.

The question is phrased in such a way, makes it confusing.

eMark said:

Just because a battery is 10s doesn't mean it only has ten series cells. Even if it was only a 10s2p Li-ion battery could it not have 20 series cells and 20 parallel cells ?

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The series string is 10S, that is fixed at 10, might be 10 cells (1P10S, but the 1P usually left out)

or say 100 cells in total, if 10P10S.

the 10x in parallel does not change anything to do with voltage.

only Ah is increased, as SM stated, increasing the P count only affects energy stored and potential current level available from the pack.

And just in case you still think the physical shape of the pack affects its electrical properties

it does not.

just furthers the goal of getting as many cells to fit in the space as possible

john61ct said:

And just in case you still think the physical shape of the pack affects its electrical propertiesit does not.

Click to expand...

Never implied it did. Do you need glasses, a brain scan or just more of your unfortunate negative black (as in minus -) flack. Can't you come up with anything positive (as in red +) to add instead of subtracting ?

spinningmagnets said:

The first battery shown at the top is 4S / 15P

Click to expand...

....... So four series cells out of sixty cells ? How many series cells ?

spinningmagnets said:

The second one down is 20S / 6P

Click to expand...

....... So twenty series cells out of one hundred twenty cells ? How many series cells ?

spinningmagnets said:

Third (on the computer screen) is 10S / 10P.

Click to expand...

....... So ten series cells out of one hundred cells ? How many series cells ?

spinningmagnets said:

The bottom one is 4S / 15P

Click to expand...

....... So four series cells out of sixty cells ? How many series cells ?

There is **no such thing** as "series cells" so it makes no sense to ask how many there are.

Top and bottom are the same layout : 4S15P means each group has 15 cells and there is a string of 4 such groups.

#2: 20S6P 20 groups in series of 6 cells each

and so on,

#3 is 10 groups of 10 in series

Have no idea what this is all about.
You stated

"You give the impression that there are only ten series cells in each of those four 10S battery configurations."

When you state it is a 10S. That is a fact, don't think anyone needs to give a impression of what it is.

In short, the terms series or parallel are not descriptors or attributes of cells themselves.

You cannot say "this cell is a series cell"

these terms are used only to designate the relationship between

1. cells, or

2. groups of cells 15P

or 3. strings of cells 10S

or 4. strings of groups 15P10S

or 5. groups of strings 6S4P

....
3 pairs of 220Ah 6V lead GCs wired in parallel first to create a 660Ah bank at 12V

is (3S2P)3P2S

each 6V battery is 3S2P, group into 3 parallel to up the Ah, then a string of 2 to get 12V

Proper usage is "these cells are in series" or "these groups are in series" or "these strings are wired in parallel"

etc

ZeroEm said:

Have no idea what this is all about.

Click to expand...

That's why i started this thread as there are more than ten series cells in a 10s battery unless it is only 10s1p.

ZeroEm said:

"You give the impression that there are only ten series cells in each of those four 10S battery configurations."

Click to expand...

No, but that seems to be the impression of sm (so far into this thread).

ZeroEm said:

When you state it is a 10S. That is a fact, don't think anyone needs to give a impression of what it is.

Click to expand...

This thread title is not about the voltage range of a 10s battery, but rather how many cells in each of the four battery configurations are "series" cells ?


10S is referring to the voltage (e.g. 36 volts nominal ... full 42 volts). 10S does not refer to the actual number of series cells in a 10S battery. There could be 20 series cells and 20 parallel cells in a 10S2P battery.

Do you actually believe there's no more than ten series cells in a 10s3p battery or no more than ten series cells in a 10s5p battery ? How many series cells do you calculate are in each of the following two triangular packs ...





"The Advantage Of The More The Better" .... is referring to the number of series cells in the above two triangular packs as well as other two images. What threw sm off was he and others didn't realize it was referring to the number of series cells.

I'm not confused anymore. I understand that you believe that 10S is stating a voltage.

I can not think that way. 10S to me is Ten Cells connected in a way that increases voltage Positive to negative or vise versa. The ending voltage range depends on the type of cell used/chemistry.

have 10 AA cells can put them in series, don't think I will get 36V.

eMark wrote:
Just because a battery is 10s doesn't mean it only has ten series cells. Even if it was only a 10s2p Li-ion battery could it not have 20 series cells and 20 parallel cells ?

Click to expand...

So my 20S 7P battery could possibility have 140 cells in series and 140 cells in parallel. Really. sorry to say it does not. 20 X 7 does get to the total cells. that is all. The S means some thing as well as the P.

ZeroEm said:

I'm not confused anymore. I understand that you believe that 10S is stating a voltage.

Click to expand...

Well guess what ... it is whether in charging mode, discharging mode or storage. I just happened to state an obvious nominal voltage of some lithium cells and the full charge voltage.

ZeroEm said:

10S to me is Ten Cells connected in a way that increases voltage Positive to negative or vise versa. The ending voltage range depends on the type of cell used/chemistry.

Click to expand...

Well whatever gave you the impression i disagree with what you just said ? Sounds more like you didn't even want to venture a guess as to how many series cells are in those two triangular pack diagrams ... so decided on a different tact to side-step the question.

eMark wrote:
Just because a battery is 10s doesn't mean it only has ten series cells. Even if it was only a 10s2p Li-ion battery could it not have 20 series cells and 20 parallel cells ?

Click to expand...

So a 20S7P battery could possibility as many as 140 series cells and 140 cells in twenty 7p groups, but you say, "Really. sorry to say it does not." I never said a pack has to have as many series cells as parallel cells; especially with some triangular pack configurations.

Not all 20s7p packs have the same number of series cells. Example ...

p .. p .. p .. p .. p .. p .. p .. p .. p .. p .. p .. p .. p .. p .. p .. p .. p .. p .. p .. p (1st string only parallel cells)
p (2nd string cells serve as both series cell and parallel cell connections)
p (3rd string cells serve only for parallel cell connections)
p (4th string cells serve as both series cell and parallel cell connections)
p (5th string cells serve only for parallel cell connections)
p (6th string cells serve as both series cell and parallel cell connections)
p (7th string cells serve only for parallel cell connections)

Would it be an improvement if 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th strings served as both series cell and parallel cell connections ?

Instead of only 60 series cells or 80 series cells why not 140 series cells. Instead of just 3 of the 20 strings (60) as series cells why not all 7 of the 20 strings connected in series (140 series cells)?

With a triangular pack it's not so easy to figure how many cells are series cells. What's the most number of series cells you figure are possible in the following triangular pack ...

Yes very confusing what do you actually want how big is your triangle car battery space and what motor and controller you have. What are you trying to do

eMark said:

(1st string only parallel cells)
p (2nd string cells serve as both series cell and parallel cell connections)
p (3rd string cells serve only for parallel cell connections)
p (4th string cells serve as both series cell and parallel cell connections)
p (5th string cells serve only for parallel cell connections)
p (6th string cells serve as both series cell and parallel cell connections)
p (7th string cells serve only for parallel cell connections)

Would it be an improvement if 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th strings served as both series cell and parallel cell connections ?

Instead of only 60 series cells or 80 series cells why not 140 series cells. Instead of just 3 of the 20 strings (60) as series cells why not all 7 of the 20 strings connected in series (140 series cells)?

Click to expand...

All of that is incomprehensible gobbledygook!

"series cells" is Not. A. Thing.

same with "string cells"

So, "How many" is a completely nonsensical question.

Like asking "How many angels can fit on a pin?"

Also, strings cannot be connected in series. Only cells and groups can be connected in series.

I tried to clearly explain above in post #13

the fundamentals of these terms to help you understand these concepts.

If you slowly parse out those posts I believe you have the intelligence to grok them

so you can start asking smarter questions.

Otherwise you are just wasting your time and that of everyone here.

eMark said:

With a triangular pack it's not so easy to figure how many cells are series cells.

Click to expand...

And again (and again and again, since your earliest posts to these forums)

the fact that a pack is triangular - or any other outward shape - makes zero difference

has no impact at all on anything electrical,

does not in any way affect how hard or easy it is to determine its xSyP layout

to the point that I just cannot imagine why you would think it does?

I can't think what are you trying to do what's this for where's it going to go what is it going to power bike trike boat ? As you design a pack for the controller motor and frame that you have.
Help us help you

Thought about your thread and understand all the questions. Don't have enough information to answer most of them and don't dare to just guess. As far as the series questions, i'm sure check the cell voltage and then the pack voltage would tell you how many are in series. Then the different combinations it would just require math of the different but equal cell combinations based on cell count.
60 cells in first picture.
1S60P I would not call this a series just one group.
2S30P
3S20P
4S15P
5S12P
6S10P
It's just reversed now.
10S6P
12S5P
15S4P
20S3P
30S2P
60S1P
12 possible combinations.

Then you ask

"10s battery configuratons which one has the best chance of the most c/d cycle life longevity and which the least IF the ONLY variable is the number of its series cells ?"

The answer is the most number of cells for long life and the least number of cells for shortest life.
This is one of the questions I had a hard time with. You ask me to pick the best 10 Series pack with the only variable is the number of cells in series. But you already to me to pick the best with 10 cells in series. In my mind 10 is not a variable so this is where I struggle to really understand what you are asking.

Then you state

"TOPIC REVIEW: HOW MANY SERIES CELLS IN FOLLOWING CONFIGURATIONS ... ADVANTAGE OF THE MORE THE BETTER ?"

This is not true in my mind. you need make sure you have enough amps to pull the voltage. So it needs to be modeled so a balance can be found.

Just want you to know i'm trying to understand.

I drew this to help explain why we call a battery pack by series and parallel.

This first pic is four cells high-lighted to show the parallel connections. All of the positive cell ends and all of the negative cell ends are connected to each other, so the pack treats a parallel group as one large cell, instead of four smaller cells. This example is called "4P"



Here below are seven cells high-lighted to show the series connections. Seven cells times 3.6V average per cell equals 25.2V, so many people call a 7S pack a "24V" battery pack. It is 29V when it is full, and 21V when it is low.

Nicely explained.

It appears the OP was unclear of the concept. If that doesn't explain series/parallel to him, nothing will. :thumb:

OMG. What utter crap. Now I am reminded why I never log into this site anymore.

Maybe I'll come back in 6 months to see if anything's changed for the better.

STOP ENTERTAINING THESE MORONS AND THEIR RIDICULOUS CONCEPTS AND INANE ARGUMENTS.

STOP PERPETUATING LOW QUALITY POSTS.

OMFG.