Bus Bars or Bus Plates For A Triangular DIY Build ?

It's been previously agreed that in a DIY build it's possible for all the cylindrical cells to function as both cells with series connections as well as the same number of cells having parallel connections. Same cell(s) that deliver voltage power also the same cells that deliver amperage capacity (we all know this, but for some reason previous phrasing confusion, my apology).

It easy to grasp this concept with this rectangular 7S4P pack in which all 28 cells function as 28 cells providing voltage power with series bus bar connections ...

as well as the same 28 cells providing amperage capacity with parallel bus bar connections ...



What about a triangular DIY build ? How can a DIY builder be assured that the same cells providing voltage power are providing that power with the most effective efficiency possible ? Likewise that the same number of cells providing amperage capacity are providing that capacity with the most effective efficiency possible (only 1st rate proven cells).

What about the followig 10S10P triangular computer design configuration ? Assuming it's most efficent to have all 100 cells functioning as both 100 cells with series connections and the same 100 cells with parallel connections what's the best solution to making this possible ... bus bars or bus plates ? ...

What technique offers the better advantage for cell connections in the above 10S10P triangular configuration or any triangular DIY build ... Bus Bar connections or Bus Plate connections ?

What's the most common sense technique for interconecting all 100 cells of that 10S10P triangular configuration having 100 cells with series connections (voltage power), and the same 100 cells having parallel connections (amperage capacity) ?

From a common sense perspective Bus Bars seem to offer an advaantage over Bus Plates, so there's more to consider than just "effective efficiency" ... https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1CAPPDO_enUS802US802&sxsrf=AOaemvKTaFLDzsR0d_-EooNTWaStrC1gHA:1631118168339&source=univ&tbm=isch&q=effective+efficiency+formula&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj5lorY5O_yAhXyguAKHQVkB1EQjJkEegQIKBAC&cshid=1631118312595173&biw=1242&bih=634 ... effective efficiency of current flow or effective efficiency to the DIY builder ... hopefully both :thumb:

Should a triangular pack builder ever need to replace a defective cell or entire p-group then Bus Bars seem to be the common sense choice over that of Bus Plates ...

"Repairing Damaged Or Dead Cells In A 18650 Pack Without Blowing Up Yourself or Someone You Love" ... https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/02/24/repairing-damaged-or-dead-cells-in-a-18650-pack-without-blowing-yourself-up/


Bus Plates may make more sense than Bus Bars to the DIY builder, but are they actually more effective when it comes to power/amperage efficiency ? If not than it seems that Bus Bars offer an advantage over Bus Plates ...




The above 20S6P photo is showig the "series connections" per the title of this thread ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=108006 . When parallel connections are done before series connections some say the correct order should be 6P20S, 10P10S, etc.

There are too many variables to affirmatively say which technique (Bus Bars or Bus Plates) has an edge over the other. The "effective efficiency" (Bus Bar vs Bus Plate) is interpreted by each DIY builder based on his DIY triangular pack build preference :thumb:

Above and below are same side of previously posted 21S12P using Bus Plates. Opposite side photo unavailable.

Using 252 Panasonic NCR18650B cells = 86.1V with pack fully charged. Using the recommended charging protocol of 4.1V per 3400mAh cell this 12P pack provides a range of 40.8Ah. The Watt-Hours of a battery pack are Volts X Amp-Hours, so 3512 Wh

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Entire "MASTERWORK" ebike build ... https://www.electricbike.com/marks-cromotor-phatrod/ ... thanks to spinningmagnets :thumb:

Bus Plates offer an advantage over Bus Bars using 1st rate brand name dependable cells with the experienced expertise of a MASTER triangular pack fabricator. Bus bars are good for packs with salvaged cells of similar capacity that likely will need occasional repair/replacement like with this previously posted triangular Bus Bar pack photo ...

If not for the advent(ure) of ebike triangular pack design and fabrication one wonders if the use of Bus Plates would've ever become so poplular? Several years ago Micah Toll made a video on building a Vruzend Tri-Pack. A few years ago Jan-Erik-86 built such a Vruzend 14S7P Tri-Pack using LG M36 cells with conventional Bus Bars.

As far as i know he's the only ES member that has build a Vruzend Tri-Pack as it is bulky for an ebike and vibration is a concern. Jan-Erik-86 said that if it didn't work out he could easily disassemble and remake using conventional assembly with spot-welded Bus Bars.

Not that many years ago Bus Bars were the only Way-To-Go and still are in vogue like the following photos showing the Bus Bars on each side of this 4/19 spot-welded 14S6P Tri-Pack ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=95477&start=25 ...









The builder (thundercamel) of this ebiike Tri-Pack has as many series connections as parallel connections joining cells together. From other Tri-Pack build threads one Tri-Pack builder believed at least two series connections joining parallel groups together was sufficient. Another Tri-Pack builder believed there should be at least three series connections joining parallel groups together.

From a previous thread (now locked) it made sense to me that for effective efficiency an ebike Tri-Pack should have the same number of connections for the cells arranged for series voltage power as the cells arranged for parallel amperage capacity. Being each cell serves a dual function it made sense that there be as many series connections as parallel connections for the best effective efficiency of an ebike Tri-Pack.

This post is not addressed to the OP, but to other members, OP feel free to please just ignore.

For me to ignore an initial post from foghorn's intrusion "I Say, I Say, I Say" is not easy when the understanding was that he was not to post on the next thread i started or a future thread. His intrusion on a thread i start is never to agree, but always find fault via misinterpretation, misrepresenting, and occasional disinformation with the result being to disrupt. Thus leading to the previous thread being locked.

This all began more than a year ago and was supposedly taken care of with the help of fechter, but it didn't take long before he was back at it again and again and again. Had thought he got the message again this time with the help of neptronix, but to no avail as here he is again with ill-founded motive (misinterpret, misrepresent and occasional disinformation). A pattern that has continued ever since because i once told him he was "wrong, wrong, wrong" and ever since he's apparently had it out for me. Even to the point of forbidding me from even agreeing with a reply he posts.

The name "foghorn" was first appropriately used by another ES member who like me also became interested in attempting to solve the "Self-Discharge" phenomenon more prominent with high energy dense cells. A problem more noticeable with the Samsung 30Q cell. Apparently a production QC issue that can be lessened with low discharge to 2.5V per cell (see my "Self-Discharge UPDATE" thread). Another ES member followed up with further experiments that showed the problem can be lessened. It's more of a temporary fix than a cure-all treatment.

Spinningmagnets suggested that i block john from postng on an ES thread i initiate, but that option to block foghorn from posting on my thread is not available. You'd think an administrator could block him when its obvious over the months, years and recent thread that he has it out for me because every time he posts on one of my threads his purpose is non-supportive.

However, being it's not possible for me or an administrator to block foghorn from this thread then we'll see how long this thread lasts before it too is again locked or tossed in the ES trash bin ... thanks in no small measure to john61ct's intrusion when he takes on the character of foghorn "I Say, I Say, I Say". It's clear after months of similar retort by john that his purpose is to disrupt via MISINTREPRETATION, MISREPRESENTING that can derail a thread.

So, if he wants to debate should i be sucked into his ill-purposed intent and tell him where his thinking is disruptive via misinterpreting and misrepresenting my post(s). It would seem i have no other choice being neither i or administration can't block his intrusion to MISINTERPRET and MISREPRESENT, but to now Stand My Ground.

So, now i have no other option than to respond to his implied accusations directed at other members implying that i'm misinformed and mistaken with his purpose being in so many words to destroy me in the eyes of other members. Apparentlly he has convinced administrators (that could block his intrusion) that i'm misinformed and mistaken ... otherwise one of them could have blocked his intrusion (as spinnngmagnets suggested) which becomes disruptive.

Therefore my only option at this time is to defend myself against his continuing MISINTERPRETATION and MISREPRESENTATION.

Accordingly (read previous post) have no other option than to Stand My Ground when neither i or an administrator can block him from posting on my thread. It's obvious from several previous encounters over months that his intent is to misinterpret, misrepresent, disrupt and derail as if he wants to TAKEOVER the thread or turn it in another direction than intended. So really have no other option than to respond to each of his comments ...

john61ct said:

The fact this example pack is in a triangle shape does not change anything electrically compared to a rectangular shape.

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Where did i ever say it didn't? Why is it that you go out of your way to misinterpret and misrepresent ... learning disability ?

In case john hadn't noticed this thread is about the use of bus bars and bus plates when building a Triangular Pack (Tri-Pack). He may respond that for "effective efficiency" it doesn't make a difference when done correctly. However, he can't say that now or he'd be agreeing with me. So, he's got to comeup with a way to disagree via misinterpreting and misrepresenting.

john61ct said:

> providing that power with the most effective efficiency possible

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Got to give john credit for picking up on my previous use of the phrase "effective efficiency". john may contend that he used this phrase before i was born. Maybe, he can post a link to a previous post of his where he used the phrase "effective efficiency" long before my recent posts in one of his previous thread replies.

Will continue onward quoting his next sentence (or broken sentence) in what should become obvious that his lengthy post is not on theme and not all that supportive to the original intent and title of this thread.

Even though i may agree with one or two of his lengthy comments i will be careful that it's not too apparent as john has previously forbide me from ever agreeing with him. Does that imply that his intent as foghorn "I Say, I Say, I Say" is to always find some way to disagree with me via misinterpretation, misrepresentation and occasional disinformation to put me down and elevate himself.

john61ct said:

Using wires vs bussbars vs plates/sheets are 100% the same performance once the implementation gives the same ampacity rating, resistance etc.

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Achieving that "100% the same performance" ... "gives the same ampacity rating, resistance etc." Again is theoretical and easier said than done. Doubt that you have the know-how, expensive test equipment and identical test parameter(s) to prove it's so. Again his replies border on derailing this thread by not taking into account the advantages and disadvantages (pros & cons) of bus bars versus bus plates depending on the builders preference reasoning.

Was going to continue with reasoning for same number of series connections as parallel connections. Also whether to use bus bars or bus plates such as the builder's experience, skill level, wanting to learn a new technique, handyman, risktaker, ambidextrous, building your own fixtures, tools, equipment, supplies, budget, personal preferences, etc, etc, when it comes to designing and fabricating an ebike Tri-Pack using bus plates. Like john i too use "buss" bars when first posting, but noticed that others were using "bus" bars so i followed suit. Maybe, it's just AC of past years gone by when it was spelled "buss" bar.

Our foghorn's "I Say, I Say, I Say" lengthy reply comes across as if he Knows-It-All. All of his learning is theoretical and has a habit of talking above others without sufficient explanation. One of my very first encounters with john61ct (many moons ago) was when i replied to one of his posts with the following reply meant to be good natured fun ... "Like Ricky said to Lucy, ' Plez Xplayn ' " ... i'm not always the most tactful, but say what i mean and mean what i say :wink:

john61ct said:

That is just a physical implementation detail, like choosing to use ring terminal wiring with nuts and bolts vs NESE vs spotwelding, then between using strips vs shaped plates.

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WOW! What else don't we already know like difference between cells in parallel and cells in series. Oh by the way john forgot to mention "soldering" as another method/technique sometimes incorporated by even Master fabricators of triangular packs.

Will be back tomorrow to continue replying to his next [broken sentence] comment ...

john61ct said:

Whether the parallel or serial connections are joined "first",

whether the buss bars or power cables are on top or at the bottom

whether the pack is triangular or rectangular

all these are details pretty much unrelated to the electrical performance

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continuing on from where i left off ...

john61ct wrote: ↑Sep 11 2021 11:36pm

Whether the parallel or serial connections are joined "first",

whether the buss bars or power cables are on top or at the bottom

whether the pack is triangular or rectangular

all these are details pretty much unrelated to the electrical performance

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Never implied any thing to the contrary? This is just another example of an unnessary and unwelcome intrusion to possibly derail this thread, get it locked or thrown in the ES trash bin. So who's the real troller ?

One purpose of this thread like the previous thread that was locked is to discuss the best effective efficiency by having the same number of series connections as parallel connections in that each cell serves a dual purpose to provide both voltage power and amperage capacity.

Previously one ES triangular design thread was such that the builder of a 12S4P believed it was sufficient that the twelve p-groups be joined only using two series connections between each p-group of 4 cells. Another ES thread of a 14S5P configuration wasn't able to interconnect all of the fourteen p-groups together using five series connections. Instead because of the triangular configurations decided three series connections was sufficient between seven of the fourteen p-groups.

The question arises: "Is it always possible to design an ebike triangular configuration so that there are as many series connections as parallel connections?" Before answering that question and proceeding with the intent of the title of this thread a review is needed due to the intrusion of an ES member with suspect motive(s).

A quick review considering the unwelcome intrusion misrepresenting the intent of this thread. The intent being to point out that a Master Tri-Pack Builder will attempt to design a triangular pack configuration with as many series connectons as parallel connections to achieve the best "effective efficiency" possible. In other words each cell in an ebike triangular (as well as rectangular, square or circular) configuration ideally will have as many series connections as parallel connections if at all possible.

It becomes apparent that a Master Builder of an ebike Tri-Pack like thundercamel will design a triangular configuration such that there are as many series connections as parallel connections. Each cell providing both voltage power and amperage capacity as efficiently as effectively possible.

Because of an unwanted and unnecessary interruption will post again the excellent photos of Master Builder thundercamel and continue with the intent of this Bus Bar / Bus Plate Tri-Pack thread ...



The first thing to contemplate is the fixture that must be built to hold all the cells firmly in place whether spot-welding Bus Bars or spot-welding Bus Plates. Also the kind of spot-welding equipment that allows for flexible movement by the builder and his spot-welding equipment. It helps if the builder is ambidextrous.

Also notice that there is a firm foam-like material separating each cell from coming in contact with another cell. This is very important, but only enough cell spacing with the right material to achieve the limited size objective of available housing and vibration protection.

We can also visualize the same number of Bus Bar parallel connections as the same number of series connections. spinningmagents posted on another thread that he favored parallel connections being spot-welded first and i see the logic in that as well as the logic in spot-welding the series connections first depending on such factors as the thickness of the Bus Bars, spot-welding equipment, builder expertise, building the p-groups first before spot-welding them together with the series bus bar connections, etc. Bus Plates as we know offer an advantage when it comes to spot-welding the same number of series connections as parallel connections. A little tricky, but certainly manageable.

This excellent photo is where it also becomes evident a possible advantage in using six Bus Plates instead of Bus Bars.



Again an excellent photo from a Master Builder showing the other side where one can easily visualize the shape and number of seven Bus Plates needed if thundercamel were to opt for using Bus Plates instead of Bus Bars. We can also see the location of the final 6-cell positive connection as well as the 6-cell negative connection on same side in the above photo.



Another excellent photo by the Master Builder in where one can again easily visualize the shape and location of seven Bus Plates should a Master Builder decide to forego Bus Bars in favor of Bus Plates in the above photo.



And finally another excellent closeup photo showing more detail and the use of solder for the positive connection and the negative connection on the same side. So much can be learned from a Master Builder like thundercamel from studying his excellent photographs of his triangular Master Build fabrication. :thumb: