Hot Swappable Battery - 1000A @ 12v or 24V?

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Jun 12, 2013
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Does anyone know of a company selling batteries capable of 1000A in a hot swappable form factor. Looking to make a 144V pack out of them but hoping there is something off the shelf.
 
That 1000A rate by itself is a meaningless spec

C-rate is a better unit, current compared to what Ah capacity?

Running for how long? 1000A for half a second, with continuous only 50A?

Allowing for how much destruction of the cells?

Or (same thing) how much temperature rise?

12V would mean 12kW, 24V double that, is that really what you mean?

Or 12kW at 24V reducing current to a more reasonable 500A?

Better if you describe the use case, give us some context
 
Yes. I can set you up. For a load of cash. A well engineered system, designed by an engineer.

For a load of cash.

Or just tell you Wat you want for free.

4000$. 144v. 1000A. water cooled. 8 year cells. 100aH @ 144v. Used cells.

Chevrolet is the company you want to buy the batteries from.

A Volt battery will cost somewhere paramount 17-19,000$ brand new. Used they are 4K$. A Volt battery will do that. Chop it in half and double it up for the 144v from the 288v (OEM voltage).

If you want a swappable set ( a pair, of those 1000A, 100Ah, 144v, nominal, batteries, 34kWh, or 34,000 wH... That will do 150kW continuous without damage, for years,... ). , that would be 8,000$, used. 38,000$ NEW from Chevrole. For the total of 68kWh @ 144v.

Teh OEM pack is 288v @ 17kWh. Cut in half becomes 144v @ 34kWh.


Individually: The Chevrolet Volt cell:
Each cell can do 400A.. and if you have 4 of them... in parallel.. .. you can do 1600A contin. Peaks well well over that. Water cooled.

Time for output, 34kWh pack, ( a Chevy Volt pack cut in half for 2X capacity and 1/2 voltage of the OEM Assy, 2X the power capability of the OEM) @ 1000A, @ 144v, outputting 144kW, it will last.. 1/5 of an hour.

They are ~17C cells. ( they will do 17(c) x 25 (Amps). Individually. 425A. Continuous, peak over 2000A.

@ 25A, they last an hour.

@ 2.5A they last 10 hours.

@ 250A the last 10 min. Individually.

@ 4p, ( 4 cells in parallel, for 100Ah.. ) .... this would be 1000A in ten min.

If you want more ( thann 10 min, outputting 144kW) ) you need more capacity.

Yeah. If you want a pack that can do 144kW for 10 min, that is 4000$.


144kW is about 200 horsepower.

200 horsepower is alot of power. Enough to go 200mph on a bike, well enough.

Even a zx10R, or a Hayabusa, uses 30 horsepower most of the time... all but.. Most of the time it is on the road.. ( 95? 98%?)

Except when it is at 200 mph, it never really sees 150 kW of continuous loading for its tractive effort.



Easy.

Yeah no mention of density requirements is tough. I mean, how much volume do you have? All the space in the world? How much capacity? Do you want? A mile or twenty, or two hundred?
 
curtis.perrin said:
Does anyone know of a company selling batteries capable of 1000A in a hot swappable form factor. Looking to make a 144V pack out of them but hoping there is something off the shelf.

https://www.interstatebatteries.com/products/31-xhd
 
Chalo said:
curtis.perrin said:
Does anyone know of a company selling batteries capable of 1000A in a hot swappable form factor. Looking to make a 144V pack out of them but hoping there is something off the shelf.

https://www.interstatebatteries.com/products/31-xhd

So very true.

I dont think he want to lug around 12 of those for the 144v, though. For the half a second capacity the lead will provide. Might need 24 ( group 31s) for a full second. Shit will boil if it doesnt sag lol. Lead acid is great for peaks but not for .. contin power. They sag.

I had 1270aH, 2v lead acids, but they wouldn't be very easy to " swap".. Lol.. at 1000 lbs ea. We had 20 of them. Noone want sto pay for 20,ooo lbs shipping though, so we scrapped them. Lol.

A group 31 will output a 1K amps for like.. half a second. Lol.

Deka ( lead acid) has gone downhill.

I live right next to East Penn Manufacturing... .. Its like a city that never sleeps: They used to be the best.

All the forklifts and other traditionally, lead acid powered, and propane powered factory equipment, I work around, alot is now DEKA Veritas LifEPo4. Noone buys lead acid anymore, at least not the factories i work in, clean, and demo, scrap, and scrap. Loads of it in teh new forklifts and lifts. All Deka around here. All liFepo4. I have seen alot local.

https://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/
 
I thought trucking shipping prices weren't all that bad, $2/mile is common for a cheap price from the video's I've seen in "A day in the life" of truck/hotshot drivers.
If they get $3 they'd be happy but the whole game with the drivers is getting pickup and dropping them off and picking up again right away nearby with minimal driving.

Where did you scrap them at?

DogDipstick said:
Noone want sto pay for 20,ooo lbs shipping though, so we scrapped them. Lol.
 
markz said:
Where did you scrap them at?


IDk.... they get shipped to somewhere in New Jersey. Fill up ten a week. 53 footers. Bunch of Mennonite boys on excavators with magnets and shears. They dont know anything but scrap scrap scrap. I work ( buy and sell out of ) this scrap yard. Get to sell the big stuff for commissions ( like the batteries, that I would have gotten 10% for, the price of, if I found a buyer). This was three years ago by now.
 
Thanks for the replies. I do realize I should've provided more context.
I'm the lead engineer for this project. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCepKsWePdtKjsud7cqjbB9A
Currently we have a 100V pack of 5x CALB CAM72 cells which can do 3C for 3min. So at times we're running 1000A through our twin motors.
For our next gen mech we want to increase the power and I'd like to switch to something more off the shelf. Plus hot swappable for off mech charging.
I was thinking that to do a hot swap where the batteries are small enough for two people to remove (150lbs or so) that you'd want each section to be in series. So 12x 12V batteries each capable 1000A for 3min (so ~400Ah)
Maybe something like this https://lithionicsbattery.com/product/12v-400ah-5dm-module/

But maybe it's fine to have larger packs in parallel
Like 3x of these hard wired and packaged in parallel as one removable unit
https://www.evwest.com/catalog/prod...d=534&osCsid=8669d8b450cab90a536657006105ccfc
Then 6 of those in series.

How big of a deal is to split a bigger pack and reconfigure in parallel without rearranging the cells? Don't you need to worry about them being out of balanced?

Cheers,
Curtis
 
Won't you need to pull the whole lot out and charge them at the same time, otherwise you'll be mixing half charged and charged and the current flows between them could be huge and wasteful. Presumably your intending to always swap out all the cells in one go, not hot swap as in... Leave the machine switched on as you do it?

Those LG chem cells look lovely. I'm wondering if I can strap then to my bike now.

Reconfiguring isn't that big a deal it's a mechanical/wiring problem and you have to make the cell voltages fairly equal before connecting up. And make sure you didn't leave any rogue wires attached.

Love your mech. Not convinced it's very useful but it is pretty cool.

How are you driving the legs? They look and sound like hydraulics with an electric pump.
 
Those CALB are as good as gold, just go to bigger cells to get more power.

Unless the weight density is a critical factor.

With EV packs based on li-ion 3.6Vnom cells, you have 100x higher thermal risk and your cycle lifespan is a tenth that of LFP.

As far as the hot swapping, need to do that in parallel sub-pack sets at pack voltage, with current limiting circuitry in between as mentioned above.

You won't find hardware for those connections off the shelf, maybe Anderson SB series?

Each sub-pack can get rebalanced independently as a scheduled offline maintenance procedure.

Just make sure you are using per-cell/group LVC or monitoring to protect the packs from over-discharge.

Slightly differing Ah capacity as they wear won't matter, however trying to do this with in-series sub-packs (if even possible at all) that's when imbalances become critical.
 
Those EV packs look fantastic, but besides the high fire risk, will likely not be available reliably in the future

harder to integrate with third party or your custom management / monitoring / protection circuitry or temperature management systems

Also, maybe not as flexible in giving you the voltage range you want
 
BHAHAHAHA I JUST LOOKED AT YOUR PROJECT LOL.


curtis.perrin said:
How big of a deal is to split a bigger pack and reconfigure in parallel without rearranging the cells? Don't you need to worry about them being out of balanced?

Cheers,
Curtis

That is a VERY common module, that EV west began selling AFTER they began selling the cells i told you to buy. Easy to reconfigure. Used in OEM powerwalls.


LOL that they call them " SUPACELLS".. Bahahah. ( wonder why they sell them in "7s"? Cause they are from a powerwall, and are energy dense cells, not power cells.. Lol)...

I PROMISE YOU a Chevy Volt pack will WALK all OVER that .... Tromp it.. walk all over it.. eat it for breakfast... do 800A from 50Ah.. Lol @ 500A from 63Ah..... the density matters...

" 500A 'In bench testing we were able to hold over 500A of output for 2 minutes per cell, '

"Supacell" .. and th VOLT pack will be more expensive too. Certainly.; ( 3x to 5x)

Here is a reference ( page 3) to that LG chem system ( stacking powerwall modules) ,,,.... ( designed for reconfigure, but look at the tabs for laser marks)

https://www.lgchem.com/upload/file/product/LGChem_Catalog_Global_2018.pdf


Anyway, the module that is listed right before teh one you linked.. is the one that is filled with.. LGX P1 cells, the same in the FIRST GEN VOLT... but I recommend the SECOND GEN: For they are 100A more powerful per cell.

This (module) came from a Chrysler Pacifica... ( the EVWEST listing)...
Contin.

https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=4&products_id=481&osCsid=8669d8b450cab90a536657006105ccfc

mxlemming said:
Those LG chem cells look lovely. I'm wondering if I can strap then to my bike now.

I have four or five friends who have those on ebikes. They are OK for 2-300A. I have one here tested. Those with them on the bike are very happy with them.;

john61ct said:
You won't find hardware for those connections off the shelf, maybe Anderson SB series?


Those EV packs look fantastic, but besides the high fire risk, will likely not be available reliably in the future

harder to integrate with third party or your custom management / monitoring / protection circuitry or temperature management systems

Also, maybe not as flexible in giving you the voltage range you want

yes you will. Easy off the shelf. Thomas and Betts or Panduit make. Flexibar. Ect. Off teh shelf.

EV packs have a much lower fire risk than you think.

I burned about 200 scraps today for the copper inside them. ( YAYA 40 lbs copper) They were puffed a little .. rejected and burned.

Even the brand new and full charge, they dont go up like a cobalt HK lipo. Hold a blowtorch on them and they still give good power. They do explode when you put them in the burn barrel though.. PFFFZZZwhooosh engulfed. Let them burn, wash the heavy metals out of them.. and scrap scrap. Pure copper sheets. Each cell holds about... 200 grams of copper inside. 2/3 of a cell is copper ( by weight).

Easy to install a " 3rd party bms".. its just wires. Connections.

I told you what is the most powerful OEM off the shelf you can buy. Trust me they are power dense, for their energy, density. That I have found. 3K$-5K$ will get you 14kWh..

OP: I can build you a 40s, 50Ah pack for 2000$$. New cell. 3600wH nominal, 144v, 800A capable. Peaks well over that.. ( 3 secon peas in teh 2000A + range) .

Water cooled will be another 400$.... 90 lbs, in two parts. ( 2X45lbs). BMS not included, just wired. You can spend what you want on the BMS.. 300$.. or 1300$... anywhere in between.

You wont find much more than a 1200w cell in practice. Especially without cooling like water or active, passive, air.

You might want to look into the Toshiba Scibs, or the Cmax cells, too. LTO maybe. They are near 1000w / cell.
 
DogDipstick said:
Thomas and Betts or Panduit make. Flexibar. Ect.

Are these specifically for Hot Swapping modules in and out while the Mecha is operating?

That's what I meant.

> EV packs have a much lower fire risk than you think.

I do not mean anything to do with externally inflicted ignition.

And I do not think the risk is very high, with designers / operators that are knowledgeable, have the right gear and a vigilant attitude.

Even with careless noobs, not as high as many commonly used fuels for example.

But within the world of batteries, still orders of magnitude riskier than LFP or as you mention LTO

Other considerations like density and cost may override that factor

but I will keep mentioning it, safety first IMO.



 
Thanks for the info

To clarify by hot swappable I mean like externally charged. Mech would run until it was at a low power level. We'd then pull out the batteries and replace with fully changed ones and the mech would keep running. It would scale to the point that the mech could run pretty much continuously if we had enough batteries/chargers.

So I'm getting the sense that it would be best to have many packs in parallel each at the system voltage. I suppose that makes sense that if we're charging each one independently and they all have the same capacity and similar health my concern of mismatch isn't as big of deal.

We were looking at just increasing to 144V but then I spotted this beast https://www.evwest.com/catalog/prod...d=297&osCsid=8669d8b450cab90a536657006105ccfc which has a better matched performance curve to the hydraulic pumps (generally lower RPM). 500A instead of 1000A

So how crazy would it be to run the system off of something like 8x 320V 20Ah packs of CALB cells. It'd be 15min of run time at full blast or there abouts. At that voltage the connections seem like the dangerous part or is that only if there are capacitive loads. I assume the motor controller has a precharge circuit and at this point we're not going to be running at DCDC, we'll just have a dedicatd auxiliary 12V battery to run the controller and everything.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKfnct-j_-c


BAHAHAHAH I CANNOT GETOVER HOW AWESOME THAT IS!!!!

YOU are really walking around strapped into what looks like a two-ton four legged spider. BAHAHAHAHAHA Looks fun. AHAHAHA

Lol. Electricity is complicated, and the product is only as good as the designers knowledge and experience.

I know what I would do, and stand by, as a product. Its too complicated to completely satisfy all your ( very relative) questions. There are vague, answers, in engineering design, and there and concrete ones. You will mostly find vague answers here.. but the questions are in th forums knowledge form years back.

Good luck with the project. YOu are totally on the right track. Also: I wouldnt use CALB cells for that. No.
 
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