When will 4680 cells be available to the public?

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We saw Tesla develop the 2170 size, and shortly after other companies began making cells in that size, which we are now able to buy. I believe I've read that other companies will also be making 4680 cells at some point. When do you think we'll see these available to the pubic by companies like LG, Samsung, or whoever?
 
None are commercially available yet (even the Tesla/Panasonic),...
But some are in the pipeline..
https://insideevs.com/news/497176/bak-battery-unveils-first-4680-cells-china/

Also...the same source had this in July...
South Korean battery manufacturers Samsung SDI and LG Energy Solution have completed the development of samples of the larger 4680 battery cells that Tesla favours for its future production vehicles.

Samsung SDI and LG Energy Solution developed samples of cylindrical 4680 cells and are currently conducting various tests at their facilities to verify their structural integrity. They have also provided their vendors with the specifications of their 4680 cells, according to a senior industry official.

The two South Korean manufacturers are each hoping to snag an order for Tesla’s new 4680 cells. Tesla is planning to produce 4680 cells at its own factories in Texas and Grünheide, but will probably also buy such cells externally. Tesla’s battery partner Panasonic announced that it would start manufacturing prototype 4680 cells for Tesla in 2021.
 
I am curious about the availability and practical usability of 4680 format for applications below 1 kWh. From the beginning of production, I expect even a slightly lower energy density in 4680 than in the latest 18650 and 21700. The greatest step forward I expect in lower internal resistance which should allow faster charging without huge impact on cell life. if they succeed in this, then joining these cells with a spot welded nickel strips will be a major limiting factor of the battery performance. Will see...
 
BAK announced 25 Ah in their 4680 sample, which corresponds to the 5x energy announced in Tesla presentation and its on the par with actual 21700/18650. First 21700 production samples also have slightly lower energy density than latest 18650.

So yes, pack design will matter the most. It seems that Tesla can fit 960 cells in 4680 format (86.4 kWh) in the same TM3 battery case footprint. It must be noted that 10 mm more on the cell height makes the most significant difference, not the cell energy density itself.
 
Until some commercial spec samples are independently tested , we wont know if there is any significant advantage in the 4680 cell.
But , one thing is certain, it will be more expensive ..$/kWh.. than equivalent 21700 cells !
 
They don't look like easy cells to build, and they are no doubt trying to iron out the many sources of grief as we speak.

But having worked for a tech development company tryingto build a structural battery (and failed, but for a number of non-engineering problems...) I can say with confidence that it's 95% gimmick and 5% improvement.

The need for a structural battery is zero, while the weight reductions are not that great. The real benefit in my mind is simply moving to a larger cell which means a smaller part count at assembly. The power of the cells is definitely better with the contact on the anode, but I'm still not certain if the cathode gets the same treatment. The use of axial cooling is a good move, as it can transfer more heat out of the battery (or into, for winter) than if the cells were cooled radially, but the amount of cooling required is not that huge.

I'll have to do a more detailed post one day given what I learned in 3 years researching all the things we see going on with the Tesla battery back, but in summary, larger cells = good thing. Cells as structural members= mostly hype. Extended anode for cooling = good idea, but hard to imlpement.
 
Reports are that they are rolling and loading them into cars now in Austin. Agree, the reduction in numbers is one of the main factors to the format, the others being the form factors added cooling path and interconnection optimizations. Hard to say on the structural aspect, but the taller cell will allow better battery box standardization with the "Blade" cell formats they and other majors are investing heavily in at the moment. One giga casting to fit whatever they can get, proves-costs out or required for customer demands or country specs. Appears they are not putting too many eggs in any one basket.
 
Wow that was a good review but how weird you don't know what batteries are you going to get your car you don't know if it's coming from Fremont or Texas ? More battey info like ah and amp rating ?
 
It is all moving quickly at this point and can not find any test data on them at this time. Not looking to me as a format that will be widely adapted outside of the premium large ev arena and that only for the near future. Even tesla looks to be side stepping it with the catl partnership and focusing on the LFP chem. for the bulk of what they see as the cost effective- safe solution for larger EV packs. Sam puts it in the proper perspective in his post yesterday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcD_qJG_Fis
 
Here is something you can buy.
Battery Hookup
NCA 60230 3.6v 55ah POWER cells 880a pulse
Regular price$35.00Sale price
They are sold out for now
 
speedmd said:
Tesla announced 1 million 46-80 cells made so far. Claims are that model y will have them installed and for sale after company cookout April 7. No word yet on range or other improvements to the car at this time.
Knowing them, it's gonna be a surprise that'll drop to generate more PR.
 
I doubt new cells will be available to the public from the factory for years. The first cells any civilian could get will likely be very soon from a wrecked Tesla.

In that case, they will still be priced at a premium due to how many people want bragging rights to claim they have some of these high-amp cells.

l6tm6kitlzi81.jpg
 
What I am seeing in reports, is that Tesla is currently planning on switching over to the 4680 in the US Mod Y later in the year and other models as supply can hold. Leaks showed only a small pre production batch of cars went to employees just recently with them. No word on exact chemistry in the canisters. Reported Lower range numbers only adds to the list of questions. Most likely, a much smaller, (cheaper - lighter or LFP) structural pack to prove out body - suspension as well a pack issues with the new front casting and structural pack evolution. One thing for certain, some seriously big upgrades in drivability should be on the way shortly with the changes. They also suggested that they will most likely need to use every one they can make for the next few years.
 
I would be surprised if we do not see significant improvements in drivability. The structural pack is claimed to be significantly stiffer which should add torsional and bending stability to the body. Also adding the nicely cored out large one piece aluminum cast front motor- suspension structure with the talked about smaller -lighter pack should be significant when pushing the limits. May be at the expense of plushness. We should have some more clues soon.
 
Tesla Fans reporting :lol: that Berlin factory will shut down for three weeks to switch over from 2170 cells to the 4680 cells. No date announced but some time this year. Claim also that all models will switch over in 2023. Also noted a new brand working with them on a 5 min to 80% cell charge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9nVX93LW_E
 
WHO will win the Battle between Tesla (Musk) and the BIG BOYS (cyclindrical cell vs pouch cell)?

Musk may find out that even his new lithium 4680 doesn't offer the right competitive muster as does the lithium pouch cell for cars. Is there even one other major car manufacturer in the world that uses cylindrical cells ?

IMO the reason Musk decided so soon to scrap the 21700 for the 4680 is due to the competitive BIG BOYS pouch cell. Time will tell whether Elan hedged his bet using the wrong eggs in his basket.

DogDipstick brought this even moreso to my attention with his recent post ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=115915&p=1713526#p1713526 ... suggesting that even when he can get his hands on bigger cells (e.g. 4680) that pouch cells will still offer an advantage in price (cycle life?). Maybe, not for e-bikes, but moreso for Golf carts, Go-carts, Scooters, HarleyHogs, Mini-cars, luxury cars, Indy, Nascar, Formula E, Extreme E.

This e-bike pouch cell battery ES thread was posted way back in 2017 ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=86067 ... 24S too bulkly and expensive ?

Apparently a lipo pouch cell battery offers no avantage for an e=bike DIY build ?
 
WHO will win the Battle between Tesla (Musk) and the BIG BOYS (cyclindrical cell vs pouch cell)?

Musk may find out that even his new lithium 4680 doesn't offer the right competitive muster as does the lithium pouch cell for cars. Is there even one other major car manufacturer in the world that uses cylindrical cells ?

IMO the reason Musk decided so soon to scrap the 21700 for the 4680 is due to the competitive BIG BOYS pouch cell. Time will tell whether Elan hedged his bet using the wrong eggs in his basket.

Reports are telling Tesla is using LFP chemistry in half of the cars sold so far this year. Without tear downs, hard to say where exactly he is putting his eggs. Not looking like they are all in the same place or format for certain. Partnerships with CATL and BYD may be about supplying pouch style as well as some cylindrical canister cells are planned. My hunch is they are planning to go in any direction that will help production -costs or performance capabilities. Chess anyone? Interesting times. The more precarious position is to be locked into one format or hi nickel or cobalt chemistry or anything the will burn.

Agree, ebikes make adapting larger format EV style flat packs difficult. 4680 looks a bit large for ebikes but may work. The 2170 may go cheap soon. 8)
 
speedmd said:
Chess anyone? Interesting times.
Chess is a perfect analogy. The technology is changing so fast it's beginning to look like even Musk is finding it quite challenging to stay ahead, let alone keep up. Maybe he's not the Grandmaster we though he was ... ?

Remember when he once thought (quipped) that someday Tesla would produce more cylindrical cells than all the other 1865--2170 manufacturers combined. Maybe it was just a dream ... ?

speedmd said:
Agree, ebikes make adapting larger format EV style flat packs difficult. 4680 looks a bit large for ebikes but may work. It may go cheap soon.
Agree, even 2170 is a tight fit for a 20S raw performance pack. The majority of popular 21700s (except VTC6) are already less expensive per V & kWh than 18650 and that's assuming the quality of both is Grade A ... ?

At the volume cyclindrical cells can be manufactured what's your guess as to the actual production cost of one 21700 P42A or the production cost of one Samsung 25R compared to an equivalent rated pouch cell ?? My guess is more in dimes (round cell) than dollars (pouch cell). As a general rule doesn't it take about the same manufacturing time to make one equivalent rated lipo pouch cell as it does to make say 5 round cells ... ?

What's your best guess as to whether or not the Harley LiveWire uses pouch cells ... ?
 
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