More Power, Capacity and Less Expensive (21700)

eMark

100 kW
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Minne-apple, USA
2170s provide more bang for the $ (or €) than 1865s ... plus 2170s aren't as expensive! Apparently less expensive to manufacture 2170 cells than 1865 cells.

Tesla decided to switch from cyclindrical 1865s to 2170s and now the new cyclindrical 4680 appears to be Tesla's favored cylindrical. Costs 56% Less to Make, Could Mean a Mind-Blowing $70 Per kWh or Less ($60 kWh industry target to compete with gasoline engine).

My reason for the Samsung 70T and 30Q comparison is wondering if there are any reports of 70T packs suffering from high self-discharge? My own guess is that Samsung has finally overcome the 30Q tendency of high self-discharge with the new 30Q6T cells ... otherwise why would anyone pay more more a 30Q6T 18650 cell than a 70T 21700 cell ??

So are 18650 cells going out of favor with DIY battery builders being 2170s are less epensive? Molicel P42A 21700 4200mAh 45A is now favored for performance and price ...
IMR - Molicel P42A 21700 4200mAh 45A - $6.99 ($5.75/100)
LIION Wholesale - Molicel P42A 21700 4200mAh 45A - $5.99 ($5.10/100)

IMR - Samsung 70T 21700 4000mAh 35A - $7.99 ($6.25/100)
IMR - Samsung 30Q 18650 3000mAh 15A - $7.99 ($6.50/100)
IMR - Sony|Murata VTC6A 21700 4000mAh 40A - $9.99 ($8.50 (/100)
IMR - Sony|Murata VTC6 18650 3000mAh 15A - $9.99 ($9.00/100)

LIION Wholesale - Samsung 70T 21700 4000mAh 35A - $5.99 ($5.10/100)
LIION Wholesale - Samsung 30Q 18650 3000mAh 15A - $6.49 ($5.52/100)
LIION Wholesale - Sony|Murata VTC6A 21700 4100mAh 40A - $5.99 ($5.10/100)
LIION Wholesale - Sony|Murata VTC6 18650 3000mAh 15A - $6.49 ($5.52/100)

BATTERYBRO - doesn't list prices (only quotes--supplier is Voltaplex)
Samsung 30Q 18560 3000mAh 15A - ($6.59 - $3.40--Voltaplex)
Sony|Murata VTC6 18650 3000mAh 15A - ($7.21 - $4.12--Voltaplex)
... Murata VTC6 quality control better than Samsung 30Q ?

BATTERYSTORE - Samsung 70T 35A - $4.99 ($4.74/100)
BATTERYSTORE - Samsung 30Q 15A - $5.99 ($4.95/100)
BATTERYSTORE - Sony|Murata VTC6A 21700 4100mAh 40A - $9.99 ($8.00/100)
BATTERYSTORE - Sony|Murata VTC6 18650 3000mAh 15A - $9.99 ($8.50/100)

BATTERYJunction - Samsung 70T 35A - $8.95 ($6.45/100)
BATTERYJunction - Samsung 30Q 15A - $9.00 ($7.80/100)
BATTERYJunction - Sony|Murata VTC6A 21700 4000mAh 40A - $10.25 ($8.25/100)
BATTERYJunction - Sony|Murata VTC6 18650 3000mAh 15A - $14.00 ($12.05/100)


NKON - Samung 21700 35A - €5.25=$5.60 (€4.80/50) reclaimed
NKON - Samsung 30Q 15A - €5.95=$6.35 (€4.78/100)
NKON - Sony|Murata VTC6A 21700 4000mAh 40A - €8.45=$9.00 (€7.75/100)
NKON - Sony|Murata VTC6 18650 3000mAh 15A - €8.95=$9.53 (€8.55/100)

VTC6 Datasheet MCD 15A - however most suppliers rate it at 20A.
 
Besides cost; 21700s require less connections for a similar performing pack made out of 18650s. 18650s smaller size may be a benefit though for certain builds; and possibly less wasted space between cells due to the smaller diameter.
 
.
Tesla decided to switch from cyclindrical 1865s to 2170s and now the new cyclindrical 4680 appears to be Tesla's favored cylindrical. Costs 56% Less to Make, Could Mean a Mind-Blowing $70 Per kWh or Less ($60 kWh industry target to compete with gasoline engine).
Yeah ... wake me up when you can actually buy quality cells at a price that even comes close to that !
..its all fan boy wishful thinking .
 
Hillhater said:
Yeah ... wake me up when you can actually buy quality cells at a price that even comes close to that !
Are you implying that 2170 cells are less expensive because the quality isn't as good as 1865 cells ? The quality of BAKs new 4680 commercial Grade A cells (zero defects) should be superior to the quality of BAKs consumer Grade A cells (1865s and 2170s). In time 4680 cells of [questionable] Grade A quality will be available for DIY builds--if the price is right.

"The new BAK Battery 4680 cell of undisclosed chemistry has a capacity of 25 Ah, 1kW peak power density. Mass production model by end of 2022 with mass production in 2023 in China's, Zhengzhou plant. It will be very interesting to see whether Tesla will order those cells for its cars in China or whether other manufacturers will switch to 4680 cells."

EfOdPSaU4AEzJLn


CATL and BYD are not just manufacturers, either; they are also increasingly innovators. Last fall, CATL’s chairman Zēng Yùqún曾毓群 told Bloomberg that it had developed a battery pack that could last more than a million miles. “These companies were really the first in the world to launch such technologies, and now companies like Volkswagen are following in their footsteps,” James Frith, head of energy storage at BloombergNEF, told me in an email. Chinese companies are not just the manufacturing technologies like they were in the early 2000s. When it comes to the battery, they are now on the cutting-edge.

The U.S. is lagging far behind with A123 System near the bottom of the pack and now with Wanxiang Group, China. Unlike the EU, which has funneled billions of euros in subsidies for home-grown battery start-ups, the U.S.’s battery capacity grows at a slower pace relative to the rest of the world. As a result, the U.S. share of global lithium-ion cell production are projected to shrink in the coming years while the EU has been catching up. “What we have seen over the last two years is a complete turnaround in Europe” said Frith. “Based on current announcements, BloombergNEF now expects Europe to account for 30% of global cell manufacturing capacity by 2030, and China just 50%. China presently accounts for 82% of production while Europe just 7%.” https://supchina.com/2021/03/30/china-is-becoming-the-worlds-battery-factory/
 
pwd said:
Besides cost; 21700s require less connections for a similar performing pack made out of 18650s. 18650s smaller size may be a benefit though for certain builds; and possibly less wasted space between cells due to the smaller diameter.
Implying because of the larger size 21700 cells aren't as popular as 18650 cells.
Hillhater said:
Yeah ... wake me up when you can actually buy quality cells at a price that even comes close to that !
Possibly implying that the so-called "Grade A" quality of 21700 cells is lagging even farther behind that of the "Grade A" quality of 18650 cells. Thus, possibly his reasoning why 2170s cost less than 1865s whether buying just one or 100. The quality of a even a true Grade A cell (zero defect) whether 1865 or 2170 is only as good as the treatment it receives.

Had only started to google Why are 21700 cells ... when "so expensive" was listed below as a possible choice. Then i finished with ... less expensive than 18650 cells. No such post in all the choices ... https://www.google.com/search?q=why+are+21700+cells+less+expensive+than+18650+cells&rlz=1CAPPDO_enUS802US802&oq=Why&aqs=chrome.0.69i59l3j69i57j46i67j0i433i512j0i512j69i60.4734j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 ... if anything the thinking was that 2170s should be more expensive than 1865 cells. China was the first to manufacture 21700 cells in 2017.

The idea that the quality of 21700 cells is lagging behind that of 18650 cells has never come across in any ES thread. The usual reaction when a product is less expensive than one would think is it must be a manufacturing quality problem (Buyer Beware).. Here's a possible explanation for why 2170s are less expensive than 1865s ... whether buying just 1 or 100 ...

There's been more production oversupply of 21700 cells than what was expected to be the [consumer] demand. With Tesla deciding the future is with 4680 instead of 2170 doesn't bode well for 21700 cells. Thus overstocked inventory of 2170s is far greater than the demand.

It's not so much that the quality of 2170s is inferior to 1865s ... at least not according to the reputable cycle life tests of 21700 cells performed by docware, Pajda and others.
 
eMark said:
Hillhater said:
Yeah ... wake me up when you can actually buy quality cells at a price that even comes close to that !
Possibly implying that the quality of 21700 cells are lagging even farther behind the quality of 18650 cells. ......
No... simply saying that for any equivalent quality cell, ( not 2nds , salvaged, or knock off brands), size irrelavent, ..expecting the retail or wholesale cost to get close to $70 kWh ,...is just wishful thinking !
 
Hillhater said:
eMark said:
Hillhater said:
Yeah ... wake me up when you can actually buy quality cells at a price that even comes close to that !
Possibly implying that the quality of 21700 cells are lagging even farther behind the quality of 18650 cells. ......
No... simply saying that for any equivalent quality cell, ( not 2nds , salvaged, or knock off brands), size irrelavent, ..expecting the retail or wholesale cost to get close to $70 kWh ,...is just wishful thinking !
$70kWh was Elan's target for his 4680 cell NOT for a 21700 cell. The e-automotive
target is $60kWh in order to be competitive with combustion engines (e.g. Toyota, Honda). https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1132072_report-60-kwh-battery-pack-price-will-make-evs-cheaper-than-combustion

$60kWh should be achievable (4680 cells) with the current price of regular (and diesel) in CA https://gasprices.aaa.com/?state=CA

How long before Indy 500 and Nascar are having the very first electrified races ... :bigthumb:
 
eMark said:
$70kWh was Elan's target for his 4680 cell NOT for a 21700 cell. The e-automotive
target is $60kWh in order to be competitive with combustion engines (e.g. Toyota, Honda). https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1132072_report-60-kwh-battery-pack-price-will-make-evs-cheaper-than-combustion

$60kWh should be achievable (4680 cells) with the current price of regular (and diesel) in CA https://gasprices.aaa.com/?state=CA

How long before Indy 500 and Nascar are having the very first electrified races ... :bigthumb:
As i said,..any cell size , actual available wholesale price even, not just a “target !
EVs will not be cheaper than ICEs with current battery tech/ costs and electricity prices increasing.
Indy 500 ?..... have you seen formula E,? The “state of the art” for electric racing ... it is extreemly boring !
Dont hold your breath for the Indy to go electric....unless they change the format to multiple short races on a slow twisty track !
 
eMark said:
How long before Indy 500 and Nascar are having the very first electrified races ... :bigthumb:
Hillhater said:
Indy 500 ?..... have you seen formula E,? The “state of the art” for electric racing ... it is extreemly boring !
Some think going round and round on an oval track is boring. The reason Formula One is "boring" (to some) is only two racing lanes/road; whereas circular tracks like Indy and Nascar allow 3 and even 4 wide racing.
Hillhater said:
Don't hold your breath for the Indy to go electric....unless they change the format to multiple short races on a slow twisty track !
Indy E pit stops would be longer for FAST recharging and would help advance newer battery tech/chem cell design. Formula One cars currently use hybrid powertrains and IndyCar is planning to introduce them in 2024 ...
TOYOTA.jpg

The NASCAR Next Gen uses a rear transaxle that can accommodate an electric motor that now supports an E15-powered V8 (set to debut at Daytona next February).

F1 has already advanced E-racing tech a long ways. But races of more than an hour are still outside the realm of ability. Just a few years ago they needed 2 cars to go that long. Now they can even flash charge a car in the pits during a race.

Getting back to 18650 vs 21700 have you built a 21700 pack? What would be your 2170 cell of choice or do you still favor 1860s over 2170s for your next DIY build ?
 
Hillhater said:
..... have you seen formula E,? The “state of the art” for electric racing ...
Progress no longer marches on, it speeds on. What is "state of the art" today seems like history tomorrow at an ever increasing pace of innovative technology ...

"Formula E’s next Gen3 car will make its debut in the 2023 season, replacing the Gen2 car that first raced [way] back in 2018. It will be faster, lighter and more sustainable.

With a maximum power output of 476PS (350kW) and projected top speeds of more than 200mph, the Gen3 car ought to be noticeably quicker than anything we’ve seen in Formula E so far. It features two powertrains, one at the front and one at the back, which together will help to boost energy regeneration to more than double that of the Gen2 car.

The Gen3 car is capable of 600kW “Ultra-high-speed” charging, replenishing the battery in around 30 seconds. The Gen3 car will also make the most of cutting-edge software engineering technology. Teams will be able to implement performance upgrades via software updates to the car’s inbuilt computer."
... www.goodwood.com/grr/race/modern/2022/4/formula-e-gen3-car-is-the-fastest-yet/

"The new Gen3 Formula E car has been revealed in Monaco ahead of this weekend’s E-Prix. It’s certainly the most striking iteration we’ve seen from the electric racing series so far." (April 29th article) ...
www.autoweek.com/racing/more-racing/a39849205/first-images-formula-e-reveals-gen3-race-car-in-monaco/
______________________ ...

So when it comes to using new 21700 cells that are less expensive than new 18650 cells. What are a couple good reasons why your next DIY build should still be to buy 18650 cells instead of less expensive 21700 cells? Cells with more power and capacity than 18650.
 
So, the “next state of the art” FE will weigh double a F1 car, and have less than half the available power ??
4 WD wont add much as they will still be managing the power to reach the finish
They still rely on street circuits ( short straights and many sharp corners) to keep the speeds low and maximise regen.
Lets see how that improves the excitement ?....but rushing around with a 600kW charge connection should be fun to watch !
And...
.The Gen3 car is capable of 600kW “Ultra-high-speed” charging, replenishing the battery in around 30 seconds.
..really ?..30 secs @ 600kW should charge about 5kWh ?...... that wont last long in a 350kW+ car !
 
Hillhater said:
So, the “next state of the art” FE will weigh double a F1 car, and have less than half the available power ??
You're Confounded and Confused :roll: (it's only round G3 ... (e.g. 1865, 2170, 4680)

"At the beginning of a Grand Prix with the driver and a full fuel load the Formula 1 car will weigh at least 908 kg (2001.8 lbs). In comparison the new Gen3 Formula E car including driver weighs in at 840 kg (1,851.9 lbs)."

contenteetimes-images-01rocketman-experiencingformulaesoundpowersourcef1x600.png

2017/18 Formula E Season using 120 kW McLaren Motor | FE Gen3 350 kW image unavailable

"To allow speeds of up to 200 mph (322 km/h), the new Gen3 car features a new motor that’s capable of putting out 470 hp (350 kW/476 PS). Despite the extra power the car weighs just 840 kg ... 60 kg less than the outgoing Gen2 car ." https://www.carscoops.com/2022/04/formula-e-reveals-new-gen3-race-car-with-more-power-less-weight/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kk8PyPSdaM
Race Highlights | 2022 Monaco E-Prix Round 6 | April 30, 2022
____________________

Moving on with comparative costs between high energy 21700 and 18650 Li-ion cells ...

21700 P42A 4000mAh 40A ... 14S4P (4x40A=160A) ... 56 cells at $6.00 = $336.00
18650 VTC6 3000mAh 20A ... 14S5P (5x20A=100A) ... 70 cells at $9.25 = $647.50
(current IMR prices from 50 to 99)

Even rated P42A at 40A instead of 45A and VTC6 at 20A instead of 15A ... :)

21700 P42A 4000mAh 40A ... 14S4P (4x40A=160A) ... 56 cells at €5.15 = €288.40
18650 VTC6 3000mAh 20A ... 14S5P (5x20A=100A) ... 70 cells at €8.65 = €605.50
(current NKON prices from 50 to 99)

Doesn't make sense for performance driven hill haters to build a 18650 pack instead of 21700
Does it make cents for casual level terrainers to build a 18650 pack instead of 21700 pack ?
 
.
The 1.6L V6 turbocharged engine, along with its power unit, can produce around 1050 horsepower. ...........
.....The weight of Formula One cars has never been constant. They have been changing yearly since 2008. The cars have been getting heavier year after year. From 2008 when the Formula One cars weighed 595 kilograms until this year when they are weighing 752 kg in 2021. This has since risen further now that 2022’s cars are out. First, it was decided that 2022’s F1 cars would weigh 795 kgs. That’s before a few teams appealed to the FIA to have that officially raised further by 3 kgs to 798 kgs (around 1,759 lbs) in total.
Earlier (2000-2005) F1 cars were built to a 450kg minimum dry spec,... which some needed ballast to reach !
..and some of those had even more powerful engines.!
And sadly for F E....
.Gen3 cars will be limited to 300kW in race mode. The front motor generator will be for regen only.

So the cost of Lithium cells you are saying is $336/kWh ..?
A long way to go then for that $70 “target”..

A performance driven hill hater would not choose any of those 18650, 21700, or 4680, cells to build a pack !
 
larsb said:
Just have to add that there’s no more or less dead space in any round cell pack, regardless of diameter of cells. It’s just a geometrical relationship that’s the same no matter how you scale it.

That's only true if you can expand or contract the envelope of available space to contain a whole number of cells with no wasted space. In the real world, some formats will fill the available space more completely than others.
 
Hillhater said:
eMark said:
Hillhater said:
Yeah ... wake me up when you can actually buy quality cells at a price that even comes close to that !
Possibly implying that the quality of 21700 cells are lagging even farther behind the quality of 18650 cells. ......
No... simply saying that for any equivalent quality cell, ( not 2nds , salvaged, or knock off brands), size irrelavent, ..expecting the retail or wholesale cost to get close to $70 kWh ,...is just wishful thinking !


I single handed try every day to convince recycling upon people and advocate EV cells ( and the like).
I paid 140$ a kWh for brand new Chevrolet cells from a Chevrolet dealer. So we are at 2x that for a kWh. New, available, not salvage and not " off branded". ... NOT recycled, or 2nds. ... ... 140$ a kWh. I bought 9.

Easy peasy to find if you know where to look, but no, not retail. I still had to chop them out the module. New, not salvage, not used, not an off brand, not a 2nd.

They will last longer and tromp just about ANY 21700 pack. It would take 14p to make the IR ( power) of ONE Chevy Volt cell.. and if its Ah for Ah, ( 50Ah vs 50Ah) of each cell, the Chevy cells destroy the quality of the 21700. By well over 2x. The 12p of Molicel 4200 (50Ah) vs 2p of Chevy cell ( 50Ah).. the 12p of Molicel has twice the IR as the Chevy 2p... I always liken cylindrical cells to the applications of flashlights and toolpacks,, not bikes or cars personally.
 
DogDipstick said:
I paid 140$ a kWh for brand new Chevrolet cells from a Chevrolet dealer. So we are at 2x that for a kWh. New, available, not salvage and not " off branded". ... NOT recycled, or 2nds. ... ... 140$ a kWh. I bought 9.

Easy peasy to find if you know where to look, but no, not retail. I still had to chop them out the module. New, not salvage, not used, not an off brand, not a 2nd.
So this is a dealer stocked, spare module for a Chevy EV ?...Bolt, Spark, Volt ??
Why do you say “Available “, but not retail ? ..
....was this a special one off , or wholesale deal ?
 
DogDipstick said:
They will last longer and tromp just about ANY 21700 pack. It would take 14p to make the IR ( power) of ONE Chevy Volt cell.. and if its Ah for Ah, ( 50Ah vs 50Ah) of each cell, the Chevy cells destroy the quality of the 21700. By well over 2x. The 12p of Molicel 4200 (50Ah) vs 2p of Chevy cell ( 50Ah).. the 12p of Molicel has twice the IR as the Chevy 2p... I always liken cylindrical cells to the applications of flashlights and toolpacks,, not bikes or cars personally.

I paid 140$ a kWh for brand new Chevrolet cells from a Chevrolet dealer. So we are at 2x that for a kWh. New, available, not salvage and not " off branded". ... NOT recycled, or 2nds. ... ... 140$ a kWh. I bought 9.
The automotive consumer e-target is/was $60kWh to be competitive with ICEs. Tesla's competitive target is/was $70kWh, but since then the price of gas is at least $1 more a gallon.

What do you figure is the kWh rating of each of those 9 Chevy Volt cells ?

So, 140$ a kWh is an unbelievable bargain considering just one P42A 2170 cell (.072Wh) is $6.99 (IMR). With a 1000 cell discount quantity the cell price is $5 or $5000 for 1000 cells (72kWh). Can my figuring be right with one P42A 4000mAh rated at only .072kWh (72Wh) ... https://www.protoolreviews.com/21700-vs-18650-lithium-ion-battery-cells/

This Lithium Ion Chevy Volt 48V 2kWh Battery w/BMS is $590 on ebay ...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/275295587596?hash=item4018e54d0c:g:IRoAAOSwV51hdw1d
s-l500.jpg


Being you have yet to answer Hh's post it may be that your post is wishful thinking. Being you bought 9 Chevy Volt Li-ion cells is it possible for you to post a photo of 1 of those [pouch?] cells next to either an 1865 or 2170 cell so we can see the difference in size ?

Would be interesting to know how you went about testing the cells for c/d capacity, IR, etc.
 
.Can my figuring be right with one P42A 4000mAh rated at only .072kWh (72Wh) ...
No !..
A 4.2Ah cell has a capacity of 4.2Ah x 3.8v = 16 Wh. (0.016 kWh)
So yo would heed 63-63 cells for 1 kWh.
...even t $5 per cell that would imply $312 /kWh
PS...
...DD did not saythose cells were from a Volt, just that they were for a Chevy.
And it was $140 /kWh for cells in a MODULE of several cells.
 
A Molicell 2600mAh 18650... @ @ 5$/ cell..... 5$/9.3wH = $537/kWh. That is the retail price of a single Molicel P26A (2021-dated) - 35A 2600mAh 18650. 537$/kWh. this is why the 4200 interested me, the lower and competitive price per kWh.

Now dont get me wrong. If I could aford an 18650 pack I for sure woudl build one.. but I wont at 500$ + per kWh.

I build tool packs, and yes, a powerful cylindrical cell pack interests me for it is not bulky and if you can afford it it is a very long lasting option for a good ebike. I own a K-Weld and do tool packs... and would build with the cylindrical cell.. IF...

This is a popular powerful Vape cell. Recently tested by our friend Mooch. 537$ / kWh.. retail from a reliable source ( not fake or clones) . Molicel P26A 18650 2600mAh 35A Battery... 5$ ea.

https://www.18650batterystore.com/collections/featured-products/products/molicel-p26a
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/threads/bench-test-results-molicel-p26a-2021-dated-35a-2600mah-18650.974009/?fbclid=IwAR3wY2CpQE_Mp9Kn_cum0_dbvHKMjVXptRH1JzQYjpfGEz03fAPGFYYzJAU

Hillhater said:
DogDipstick said:
I paid 140$ a kWh for ... 140$ a kWh. I bought 9.

Easy peasy to find if you know where to look, but no, not retail. I still had to chop them out the module. New, not salvage, not used, not an off brand, not a 2nd.
So this is a dealer stocked, spare module for a Chevy EV ?...Bolt, Spark, Volt ??
Why do you say “Available “, but not retail ? ..
....was this a special one off , or wholesale deal ?

First off, I am not just trying to be contrary.
This was a spare Chevrolet Volt module, half of the whole hybrid car battery. 8.9kWh. Purchased from a Chevrolet Dealer in Ohio. picked up with a freight pickup order in an Old Dominion Freight line truck. It was a " one off" because the dealer was out of business from the pandemic and was selling their inventory. I connected through Carpart.com. I say " available" because there are stores, dealerships and junkyards, all over carpart.com selling these things.. but you cannot go to some sort of retail store and pick a module off the shelves and go to the cash register and check it out.. I had to find.. line up, and pay, for the shipping.

I do not mind telling you what I paid, for I will be keeping them. I paid 1400$ for 88 cells delivered. $15.90 / 90 watt hour, 25Ah, 3.7Vn cell. I would have bought the whole thing if the back half had not already sold to another person. All 192 cells.

I could happily sell them for 20$ each if I was not building with them. This would be about 200$ / kWh.

You see Battery Clearing House having some wonderful cells nowadays for about 100$-200 per kWh. BHU too. You see them coming out.. you see the modules are popular, and some body will profit off our interests. Certainly moreso in the future.

8,900 watt hours of a p26A Molicell 18650 would cost ....~ $4,799$.. I paid 1400$ for a much more powerful and potentially longer lasting.. choice.

I cant kill em. They are downright hardy and ridiculously powerful, they never sag, go slow up a hill, get cranky, or out of balance, and I have not used a BMS in over a year. .. I am not alone too.. A kid came to me, was serious, asked me three days worth of questions.. Looked at my pics, took dimensions, asked more questions... bought a module, put it in his EV four wheeler.. and proceeded to be impressed by the power of the Volt cell since. He loves it. I walk about three or four people through what I know about this car pack every month. ....Lots come to me for info. I run 100A ( 4c) contin and they dont get warm.

.... just keep on going like that effing Energizer bunny pounding his drum.

Hillhater said:
A 4.2Ah cell has a capacity of 4.2Ah x 3.8v = 16 Wh. (0.016 kWh)
So yo would heed 63-63 cells for 1 kWh.
...even t $5 per cell that would imply $312 /kWh
PS...

And it was $140 /kWh for cells in a MODULE of several cells.

eMark said:
DogDipstick said:
140$ a kWh. I bought 9.
The automotive consumer e-target is/was $60kWh to be competitive with ....
A 4200mAh cell of 3.6v nominal ( 4.2(aH) x 3.6(Vn) ) = 15.2 watt hours. A single gen4 Chevrolet Volt cell holds ~90 watt hours each.
What do you figure is the kWh rating of each of those 9 Chevy Volt cells ?

I purchased 88 cells, in a 44s, 162v nominal battery. 8,900 watt hours. Eight thousand, nine-hundred, watt hours. Half a 2019 pack. Came in a OEM GM box that said " Property of GM" and " MADE IN TE USA"... a very very fancy shipping box that bolted the modules down and straps closing the box and fancy warnings all over it... You can see the pack, labeling, and the embossed plastic ship container in the pic below....
The kWh number.... It is printed on a label on the side of the pack. By the factory. The factory is in Ohio. Where the modules were assy. The factory puts a sticker on teh modules, and teh pack as a whole, and tehy each have their own Chevrolet part numbers with Julian dates. A factory employee, is tasked with this chore, or a machine, that places this sticker, on the pack, before the pack is shipped out to its final destination. The sticker is probably printed on a roll in another part of the factory, using a computerized system.

I also test on my Powerlab to make sure they meet the mark.


Being you have yet to answer Hh's post it may be that your post is wishful thinking. Being you bought 9 Chevy Volt Li-ion cells is it possible for you to post a photo of 1 of those

IT WAS 88 cells, in a 8.9 kWh nominal config.... I have purchased over half a thousand of these ( Chev Volt) cells, and sold most of them..... Not very "wishfull"... But very easy actually. You only need to have money to purchase them, no wishful thinking involved.

Being as I have answered.

Would you like a photo of many cells? Here. I do have pics of like fifty or sixty sitting on tables, waiting for the sale.


So, 140$ a kWh is an unbelievable bargain considering ....


(YOU CAN ALSO CLEARLY SEE THE OEM "2kWh" LABEL ON THE EbAY PICTURE, and JULIAN DATE. IN the picture from eBay, that you posted.)

This Lithium Ion Chevy Volt 48V 2kWh Battery w/BMS is $590 on ebay ...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/275295587596?hash=item4018e54d0c:g:IRoAAOSwV51hdw1d
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THIS module (the eBay module you linked... ) is actually overpriced, used, and no real history, with questionable specs... ( ripoff imho). It is one of the earliest modules, you can tell by the plate structure and color of the fiberglass plastic. I buy a kWh of those cells, used, ( early gen) for 80$ a kWh. He has a mid sized module in the pic... So that is 2kWh. You can get a 3kWh module form a later car pretty easy if you look, for that 600$ price for sure. Like I said, Art at Greentec advertises those 80$ modules on the ( this forum) forum in the for sale section. I show two ( 1kWh) early modules in the pic below.... Running my datalogger. Those were 80$ from Art. They are the LG P1 cell, a 14.5Ah cell that holds the least watt hours out of all the cells in the Volt. There were four revisions of the Chev Volt cell / pack choice. I have tested and used all four of those part numbers in ebike builds.

He really does not know what he is talking about. EVERY spec is wrong. They are NOT 17Ah ( really 14.5Ah) , nor from 2014, ( from 2012 or 2013) nor is it 50Ah oem. ( 45Ah oem) ... NOT LiMn2O4 with LiNiO2, ( they are lipos, not lions). ... NOT 48v nominal ( really 44v nom. )... Grrrrrr.... NOT 3s12p.. Jesus how could you get that wrong and have any sort of faith in your numbers. Lol.. This is why I do not buy off eBay. Noooope.

[Sic]

Go find the most expensive, lied about, Chevy Volt pack in the world....? and that is what ya got. Like going to out to eat... and expecting a Sirloin burger... and paying the prices of a of a Sirloin burger.. only to get home and find out the "burger" was really a McDonalds fish sandwich wrapped up in a burger wrapper..... Sold to you, for you thought, you were to get a savory Sirloin burger.. Plot twist.. It was really a McDonalds. Trying to rip you off and get as much money for their ( fake Sirloin) burger as they could (at that moment)... I use honest, reliable, business men, who run real " restaurants".. (dealerships)... And? When I pay for a Sirloin burger... that is what I get.. a Sirloin burger. I dont do "McDonalds" anymore.. (a stomach ache).

It is a 12s3p.. NOT a 3s 12p.. Bahahahahahahahahahah. He does not know what he got, .. Lol. Probally just knows they are popular, and sell, for powerwalls and ev diy builds ( like I do).

The cooling plates and teh orings have been removed, and a shipping band installed around the top to keep them together. Clearly shown. Someone has been inside that thing, and it can never go in a car again. Molested module for 600$, when you could buy a unmolested module of GEN2 cells for that price.

Lies, for sales, that pisses me off eternally.. He does not know at all what he got. Lol.

THIS GUY at least tells teh correct config, even though he lies about the capacity ( not 27Ah cell, but a 25Ah cell)... 600$.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/224948157860?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200818143230%26meid%3Db23f1560480a4ffab66552de0c3a15e7%26pid%3D101224%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D275295587596%26itm%3D224948157860%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DDefaultOrganicWeb%26brand%3DLG&_trksid=p2047675.c101224.m-1

( I have tried to purchase, and have paid for, this particular module a couple of times.. but he keeps on cancelling the sale, for I am pretty sure he knows who i am, and that, i might prove his specs wrong and request a return.. or compensation.. for his lies: and uneducated, incorrect, ambiguous, description... ( ...that, which I would, do, given that chance.) The Chevy published data does not coincide with ANY of his data... and I have asked him about that, several times without response... in the past, through the eBay messenger.... )

They did discontinue every revision up to the rev.1.7 ( the program Chevy calls the newer Voltec replacement battery in the Volt.. the " 1.7 chemistry update" (denoting the LGX P1.7B cell used). This is what they put in the older cars nowadays, the earliest cell numbers were retired from the warranty program last year.

They range from about 60wH to 92wH per cell in the eight years of the car. I have a switchboard that holds the tower of power cells and the datalogger and a ton of Panduit alligator clip binding posts that I can configure for any sort of testing connected tot he chargers 40 pins, the balance x 32 and the main x 8 leads. Yes, it can be a rats nest of temporary wires for the test of mass sections of module or many cells at once.


.... a photo of 1 of those [pouch?] cells next to either an 1865 or 2170 cell so we can see the difference in size ?
Sure, I have tested over a thousand.... They are 0,25 x ~6 x ~10... If you really want a pic here you go.
Would be interesting to know how you went about testing the cells for c/d capacity, IR, etc.

LGcell.jpg
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I use a Revolectrix Powerlab, a four channel, 32s 5700w datalogger. I run it with 6kWh of the car cells. I can test up to 32 cells, or 32 groups of cells, in series, or not, at one time, up to 5700w ( 40A each, so yes I can do 1C testing of cycling charge/discharge on a datalog). Typical cycle is a charge from storage voltage, discharge cycle, charge cycle, discharge cycle, and back to storage voltage, all on a datalog. Logs each channel individually. Very clearly shows the collumbic efficiency and the IR, capacity, and curve, of the cell. All data can export to Excell for easy manipulation of the graphs if you dont want to use the Powerlab native graphing features ( Excell is better at this)... Real 1C rate determination through PID loop controlling the current...
Here is a pic of my initial testing when I got it. THIS is the entire VOLUME of 8.9kWh nominal, in the box. The very bottom pic also shows two ( 1kWh) early modules running channels 1 & 2 of the Powerlab..

So that is ~11 kWh (11,000 watt hours) in the lower pic, total.

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Williams Advanced Engineering and Molicel Collaborate on Battery Cells
https://www.advancedbatteriesresearch.com/articles/24566/williams-advanced-engineering-and-molicel-collaborate-on-battery-cells

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Thanks for Hh's and DD's replies as it helps IF we can come to an agreement on nominal cell voltage when figuring Wh/kWh of a 14S14P P42A battery with a FULL charge/discharge (4.20V to 3.00V) or a partial charge/discharge (4.10V to 3.10V). Shouldn't the nominal (50%) pack voltage for both be the same -- 3.60V ...
  • (4.20V = 100%)
    4.10V = 100%
    4.00V = 90%
    3.90V = 80%
    3.80V = 70%
    3.70V = 60%
    3.60V = 50%
    3.50V = 40%
    3.40V = 30%
    3.30V = 20%
    3.20V = 10%
    3.10V = Cut-Off
    (3.00V = Cut-Off)
72 Wh from the following table ... forgot to divide by the # of cells in 18V Li-ion battery …
72 Wh ÷ 5 = 14.8 Wh (18V ÷ 3.60V = 5 cells). 14.8 Wh with cell capacity of 4.0Ah x 3.70V = 14.8 Wh. You calculated 15.96 Wh (4.2Ah x 3.80V) for P42A.
Current Standard Power Tool Batteries (based on 18V/20V max batteries)
  • 21700 LI-ION BATTERY CELLS
    Compact 1P Battery: 3.0Ah–4.0Ah (54 Wh–72Wh)
https://www.protoolreviews.com/21700-vs-18650-lithium-ion-battery-cells/ ... (scroll down)
  • DD uses an avg cell voltage of 3.577V x 2.6Ah = 9.3wH
    Molicell 2600mAh 18650... @ 9.3wH (0.009kwH)
    Hh uses an avg cell voltage of 3.800V x 4.2Ah = 15.96 Wh
    Molicell 4200mAh 21700... @ 16 Wh (0.016 kWh)
How/Why does DD decide to go with 3.577V and Hh go with 3.800V ?? Is it from the cells' datasheet or guessimate or a little of each :wink:

Why can't 3.600V always be the nominal voltage for figuring Wh(and kWh) based on 3.60V being a 50% charge (?but not 50% capacity?)? Hh's 3.80V may be more realistic IF the stored capacity from say 4.10V to 3.80V is approx the same capacity as from 3.80V to 3.10V. Why even bench test as low as 2.50V? Real-life ebike BMS or Controller cut-off is never that low. The real-life discharge capacity between 3.00V to 2.50V is minimal.

I'll be running a second discharge capacity bench test this week on my 10S3P 30Q recording used capacity after each 10% drop in voltage from FULL (42.0V) to 30.0V averaging 152W duration of drain. Has anyone done a similar test to determine the happy middle of capacity drain and its voltage (e.g. DD 3.577V nominal or Hh 3.800V nominal) for figuring a 21700 cells' kWh rating of say a 14S14P P42A battery ... 196 cells at $5ea = $980 with somewhere between DDs 130.2Wh (14p x 9.3Wh) and Hhs 224Wh (14p x 16Wh).

What is the kWh rating of a $980 - 14S14P Molicel P42A 4.2Ah battery with DDs 18650 Molicel 2.6Ah 14S14P of 50.12V (cell 3.58V nominal?) vs Hhs 21700 Molicell 4.2Ah of 53.20V (cell 3.80V nominal?). This can get confusing as to What Is The Cost per kWh of a 14S14P P42A 4.2A battery.

Whether Formula E Gen3 or Extreme E Odyssey 21 what is considerd a FULL charge and what is the cut-off voltage when it’s time to recharge halfway through a FE Gen3 race.

Can we agree on a reasonable medium (e.g. 3.60V) based on 10S 36V pack …
________________________

Williams Advanced Engineering has the contract to supply the battery system for the Formula E Gen 3 Car for the 2021-22 and the battery system for Extreme E Odyssey 21 car …

m4801_crop169014_1024x576_proportional_16267060562218.jpg


How Williams Advanced Engineering built “the world’s most extreme battery” … https://chargedevs.com/newswire/how-williams-advanced-engineering-built-the-worlds-most-extreme-battery/
https://electrek.co/2019/07/05/extreme-e-odyssey-21-suv/
 
eMark said:
....... Shouldn't the nominal (50%) pack voltage for both be the same -- 3.60V ..
....Can we agree on 3.600V as nominal voltage for figuring Wh(and kWh) .
No, ..that would only be correct if the voltage to capacity relationship is linear, and the same with different discharge loads.....which it is not.!
Check some discharge curves for an insight .
And refer to the manufacturers specifications for accurate details of cell voltage range, nominal voltage, max capacity, etc
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0697/3395/files/INR21700P42A-V3-80092.pdf?2425
...Note,.. that shows a 3.6 v nominal , but using a wider voltage range (4.2 - 2.5v), and a a single discharge rate.
72 Wh ÷ 18V = 4.00 Wh or 72 Wh ÷ 20V = 3.60 Wh (for one 21700 P42A 4Ah cell) ...
No,...still incorrect.
I explained how to calculate the Wh for a single cell previously.
 
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