hi, sorry if this isn’t the place to ask questions i am new. i am in the process of purchasing an ebike/moped type thing and i had some questions i wasn’t able to find help with elsewhere. the bike im looking at getting has space to mount 3 hailong e bike battery cases. im planning to replace the controller and motor on the bike to make it relatively powerful. my issue is most places i can find hailong batteries they are limited at the bms to 40 amps at max. so my question is if i run 3 of these batteries in parallel would the max current output be 40 amps or 120 amps? and do you guys think that would be a good solution?
battery current output help
- Thread starter nogrin
- Start date
nogrin said:
If in parallel, the current (and capacity) adds.
However--when any of them shuts down, for any reason, the system as a whole is now only as capable as the remaining packs--if the load exceeds what they can do, *and* they have protection against this, they'll shutdown leaving you without power.
But if they have no protection against overload, the BMS in them may simply fail...and this failure is usually the FETs, and those often fail shorted. If they do, then the result is that the BMS will *try* to turn them off when a condition (LVC (battery empty), etc) comes up that needs protection against, but the FETs won't respond; they're like a switch stuck in the on position. When that happens, you can then overdischarge the cells, and damage them. SUch a FET failure is "silent" meaning you won't even know it has happened, unless/until the batteries are damaged by the results and show obvious symptoms of this....
If the controller has LVC protection higher than the battery's, this is less likely...but can still happen in some scenarios.
To mitigate the possibility of this, you can run a wattmeter that keeps an Ah / Wh tally of usage during a ride, and when you get within some percentage of having used most of the total 3-pack capacity, start riding in a way that uses the batteries more gently. It's better for the batteries in general, and makes it less likely for most of the potential problems to occur.
Regarding the rest of the project, if you list the specific riding style, speed, etc., rider/bike/etc weight total, along with your riding conditions like hills (incl actual slopes), weather, road conditions, etc., desired range at what speed, and any other info possible, it will help us help you figure out how much motor, controller, and battery you will need to do the job you want the bike to do for you. Then you don't either have to just overbuild and overspend to be sure it can, or end up buying the wrong insufficient stuff first and having to buy a completely different "bigger" set of stuff later when the first doesn't do what you want.
Or you can go to the http://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html and simulate your proposed setup in your specific conditions, and see if it will work.
That's one method, but I really meant a BMS that monitors the output current (and FET temperature) and will shut off the output before it reaches a point where damage to the BMS FETs might occur.
They don't all do this, unfortunately, and that's one reason it's a bad idea to use a battery pack in a system with a controller capable of higher current draws than the battery's BMS is rated for (aside from cell ratings). You can't really tell if a random BMS already in a battery will protect in this case without testing it, and if it doesn't, it may be damaged by the test. (you can see if it *could* do it in theory by whether or not it has a current-monitoring shunt onboard, but whether it uses the info from that to protect.... :? )
They don't all do this, unfortunately, and that's one reason it's a bad idea to use a battery pack in a system with a controller capable of higher current draws than the battery's BMS is rated for (aside from cell ratings). You can't really tell if a random BMS already in a battery will protect in this case without testing it, and if it doesn't, it may be damaged by the test.
(you can see if it *could* do it in theory by whether or not it has a current-monitoring shunt onboard, but whether it uses the info from that to protect.... :? )
Chalo
100 TW
It's worth noting that running your battery at 100% of its rated capacity is bad form and won't work very well for very long. I think you and your batteries will be happier if you limit their discharge rate to 1/2 their rating. So 60A for three of them in parallel.
eMark
100 kW
Connecting 3 in parallel provides 3 times the Ah capacity, but does not provide more power (voltage) to the motor which seems to be your objective.nogrin said:
From your post it sounds like you plan on using either a 52V or 72V Controller that can handle closer to 80 amps than 40 amps. Is that correct?
Anyway your plan to mount 3 hailong batteries WON'T achieve your objective. To achieve the power/speed you want may not be worth the expense to do it RIGHT.
Do you really need more than a 50amp (or 40amp) Controller considering the cost of a good quality dependable battery (and an owner that doesn't misuse or abuse the battery).
larsb
1 MW
I don’t get your post eMark?
Power is V*I, triple I is triple power available. If the system is current limited it will get more power, if it’s voltage limited not (and we won’t know which it is until more info is known.)
Power is V*I, triple I is triple power available. If the system is current limited it will get more power, if it’s voltage limited not (and we won’t know which it is until more info is known.)
eMark
100 kW
He is basically asking if having 3 Hailongs in parallel would permit more power/speed ... :thumb:eMark said:
Need to go back and read his initial post ...
When he says "40 amps or 120 amps?" it should be obvious he's not referring to a change in Ah riding range capacity, but rather an upgrade in power/speed (his apparent objective).nogrin said:
He's asking for greater current output (more than 40amps) with a Controller upgrade. That's why he also plans on a Motor upgrade (for example 500W to 1000W) ... more power/speed.
Apparently you have yet to understand his one and only post. Whether you know it or not your above reply possibly does as much to confuse him than answer his basic question. That's possibly WHY he hasn't replied since his initial post.larsb said:
Do you understand his primary objective is going at least 28mph with power upgrades -
For example instead of a 10s5p 36V battery he needs a more powerful 12S, 13S or 14S battery with likely more capacity (e.g. 6p, 7p, 8p) depending on his riding range requirement. Thus a battery with enuf POWER to satisfy his riding enjoyment as well as enuf guts for optimum cycle life longevity.
IMO, 3 Hailongs in parallel is not the right/best solution. If the 40A BMS Hailong is already rated at 48V nominal he may only need two in parallel; while still providing enuf power for 28mph without stressing the two Hailongs and providing the desired Ah riding range with his other upgrades.
Agree that he didn't provide us any specs whatsoever on the Hailong battery so my replies could be viewed as somewhat nebulous, but i gave it my best guesstimate reading between the lines :wink:
larsb
1 MW
I might be tired, where does it say 28mph 
And your answer was not correct so i’m afraid i will have to stand by mine.
And your answer was not correct so i’m afraid i will have to stand by mine.
eMark
100 kW
That's (28mph) become the national Class 3 restriction (28mph max) for an American ebike, even thou it's not enforced with radar traps :wink: . Assumed he's an abiding American citizen.larsb said:I might be tired, where does it say 28mph
Is there any such similar regulation (max ebike speed) in Sweden ?
larsb
1 MW
Ok.. you’re kidding, right?
eMark
100 kW
If its been said once it's been said a thousand times that California is the trend setter for American culture (for better or worse). Here is California's legal classification on ebikes ...larsb said:
- Class 1 eBike
A Class 1 eBike, or low-speed pedal-assisted electric bicycles, is equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling and that stops providing assistance when the bicycle reaches 20 mph. These e-bikes are legal on any paved surface that a regular bike is allowed to operate.
- Class 2 eBike
Class 2 eBike, or low-speed throttle-assisted electric bicycle, are equipped with motors that can exclusively propel the bicycle, but that cannot provide assistance when the bike reaches 20 mph. These e-bikes are legal on any paved surface that a regular bike is allowed to operate.
- Class 3 eBike
A Class 3 eBike, or speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle, is equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling and stops providing assistance when the bicycle reaches 28 mph. Operators of Class 3 e-bikes must be 16 or older and wear a helmet. Class 3 e-bikes are prohibited from Class I multi-use bike paths unless specifically authorized by a local ordinance.
Harley-Davidson Serial 1 ebikes are rated at 20mph (Class 1 & 2). They also offer a Serial 1 - RUSH/CTY 28mph (Class 3). Uses a Brose S MAG mid-drive motor and Enviolo AUTOMATiQ “intelligent automatic” hub transmission (Gates polyflex belt drive) that changes gearing based on motor power, pedal input and other factors. A stout 706 Watt-hour battery fits nicely inside the lower frame for a low COG.
It has that clean Swedish design look to it. The design engineer in this video looks Swedish -- (based on my Swedish ancestry -
) ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaKuFF_vapEHere's a decent review by Micah Toll ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1l8VD2w7wg
What is AOK for Harley-Davidson ebikes should be Good Enuf for Endless Sphere ebikes - :thumb:
larsb
1 MW
So, in essence you try to shool me with ”Apparently you have yet to understand his one and only post” while you just pull out of your arse that OP is trying to meet the ebike laws for California (the natural and only option since he is from Canada, right?)
:thumb: I’ll print and frame your post and hang it on the wall in my outhouse where i can spend time contemplating it’s grandeur. Might come in handy if i ever run out of paper.
:thumb: I’ll print and frame your post and hang it on the wall in my outhouse where i can spend time contemplating it’s grandeur. Might come in handy if i ever run out of paper.
eMark
100 kW
- All ebikes in Canada cannot exceed 500W or 32 km/h (20mph).
- In Sweden, e-bikes are classified as ordinary bicycles as long as the maximum nominal motor power output isn't more than 250 watts and the maximum performance speed when the engine is running is 25 km/h (16mph) according to the Swedish Vehicle Regulation (Trafikverket).
My great Grandfather, Eric Janssen (from Karlskoga) came to America in 1850. Was among the first Swedish pioneer settlers to establish the community of Stockholm, Wisconsin ... https://www.stockholmwisconsin.com/ ... beautiful scenery reminiscent of the "Hemland"
As a young teenager i bought my first WHIZZER Motorbike (3hp/45mph) in Stockholm, WI ...
It was obvious from his initial post that he wanted a more powerful ebike than possible with a Hailong battery with a 40amp BMS. It was obvious from his post that his objective was to modify his ebike for more power/speed ... (which is illegal in Canada).
eMark
100 kW
They are only "silly laws" to those who ignore them at their own safety and own illegal risk.
The purpose of ES posts should not be to encourage DIY ebike builds that are illegal like this post by "illegalbike" ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=114124 from an avid Russian DIYer. And this other similar thread from "illegalbike" ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=114340&p=1712444#p1712444
It does seem that the entire world is establishing similar ebike laws that you consider "silly".
As distinquished ES contributor is it your opinion that ES also believes ebike laws are "silly" ?
Agree that one reason ES is so popular is because of all the "illegal" DIY build threads for both eskateboards and ebikes. Maybe, it's about time that even you realize that referring to ebike laws as "silly" is not good sense or inline with the ethics of Endless Sphere moderators.
Think you might agree that Grin Technologies would not be so bold to refer to the ebike laws of Canada or USA as "silly" as you think is appropriate to post on this Endless Sphere thread.
The purpose of ES posts should not be to encourage DIY ebike builds that are illegal like this post by "illegalbike" ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=114124 from an avid Russian DIYer. And this other similar thread from "illegalbike" ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=114340&p=1712444#p1712444
It does seem that the entire world is establishing similar ebike laws that you consider "silly".
As distinquished ES contributor is it your opinion that ES also believes ebike laws are "silly" ?
Agree that one reason ES is so popular is because of all the "illegal" DIY build threads for both eskateboards and ebikes. Maybe, it's about time that even you realize that referring to ebike laws as "silly" is not good sense or inline with the ethics of Endless Sphere moderators.
Think you might agree that Grin Technologies would not be so bold to refer to the ebike laws of Canada or USA as "silly" as you think is appropriate to post on this Endless Sphere thread.
larsb
1 MW
Spare us the legal lesson, and spare me the swedish trivia, i am not interested in a penpal.
If legality is very important to you then just start your own thread to discuss it.
If legality is very important to you then just start your own thread to discuss it.
eMark
100 kW
52V Hailongs only come with a 40A BMS. Then claim that the MCD is 40A with a peak of 120A. Seller hype (120A) that he knows isn't true. Maybe 60A for 2 seconds, but BMS is only 40A :wink:nogrin said:
https://www.amazon.com/PANDA-CYCLE-Rechargeable-Batteries-100W-1600W/dp/B09NMBFDCV/ref=asc_df_B09NMBFDCV/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=563785716929&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10238047104241142110&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9019693&hvtargid=pla-1601501919024&th=1- Seller reply to following ?
His primary reason for posting was not improving riding range in Ah capacity, but rather a beefier battery with a BMS rated greater than 40 amps. His primary goal for paralleling was to gain more power with increase in Amp hour capacity a secondary bonus.
Again, his objective is a more powerful battery upgrade with more than a 40amp BMS (not an upgrade in riding range capacity above 40Ah).Chalo said:
Three 14S 52V Hailongs each with 40A BMS is still 52V ... granted for a longer time but the power and speed has not increased which seems to be his objective for needing at least a 50A BMS if not greater.
Here's a 20S 72V 19.2Ah 500W to 3000W (LG cells) with a 60A BMS - $716 https://www.amazon.com/Unit-Pack-Power-Official-Warehouse/dp/B095KC8NHC/ref=asc_df_B095KC8NHC/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=532384505741&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14815946396172891746&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9019693&hvtargid=pla-1447026452521&th=1
Here's a 16S11P 60V 31.9Ah 350W to 3000W (29E cells) with 60A BMS - $672+$130 shipping
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2251832780187845.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000014.1.75775eceYmx4EW&gps-id=pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller&scm=1007.40000.267768.0&scm_id=1007.40000.267768.0&scm-url=1007.40000.267768.0&pvid=26bed6d4-4254-4926-9e27-420e1f0ccac2&_t=gps-id
cDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller,scm-url:1007.40000.267768.0,pvid:26bed6d4-4254-4926-9e27-420e1f0ccac2,tpp_buckets:668%232846%238114%23746&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000026299928165%22%2C%22sceneId%22%3A%2230050%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21USD%21%21378.57%21%21%21%21%21%402103222416548241378841697e1ec2%2112000026299928165%21recAhhhhh, the PRICE for SPEED ... there's nothing like it ... GO for the GUSTO ...
I'd say you're inferring or even imagining quite a lot more than is reasonable out of the little information that is there.
I've quoted the OP's only post below, in it's entirety.
Unless the OP ever comes back (unlikely; most don't), It is not possible to tell what they are actually after, beyond the actual words they used in their post.
I've quoted the OP's only post below, in it's entirety.
Unless the OP ever comes back (unlikely; most don't), It is not possible to tell what they are actually after, beyond the actual words they used in their post.
nogrin said:
eMark
100 kW
amberwolf said:
My immediate knee jerk reaction was No, it's not a good solutuon!, but waited to see what others would post.
amberwolf said:
Several things (actual words) stand out ... so why not (what-about) having asked one of these questions ...
- Is your objective in paralleling 3 Hailongs batteries more power/speed or Ah range?
- Why can't one 52V Hailong w/20A BMS provide both the power, speed and Ah range?
- What's top speed (mph/km/h) and riding distance (miles) that you need to achieve?
An ES member that others may look to as a spokesperson for ES then chose to offer this insightful post ...
Oh Really! Being he comes across as such an authority is his comment also representative of ES moderators. Moderators who may also believe these state, provincial, national ebike laws and regulations are likewise "silly" ?
Your recent (summary) post is a breathe of Fresh Aire. Whether you know it or not your contributions to ES forum threads are looked upon as: Most Knowledgeable; Balanced; and of course Helpful :thumb:
Thanks for both your beginning post in this thread, especially your previous post and what hopefully will be your concluding words of wisdom :thumb: ... Like whether or not you think current state, national and country ebike laws (worldwide) are too restrictive to the point of being "silly" (i.e. USA). As countries go America seems to have one of the highest, if not the highest, legal limit (ebike w/pedals) laws/regulations for Class 3 - 28mph.
Isn't that really an important consideration how influential ES members answer newbie posts? First ask a few simple questions like the 3 posted above that are relevant to the OPs question(s) - considering worldwide ebike speed laws.
It's obvious MANY others consider ebike laws to be "silly", but really doubt that Micah Toll (Israeli citizen) thinks it's ... SILLY (or maybe he does)
larsb
1 MW
eMark said:
No, ES isn’t about policing, it’s about the builds and the tech. I wish you could stop ranting with bold letter text and start a legal ebikes thread, then all interested in this can come and post there - it’s the way a forum should work. If you read the forum rules then offtopics are not encouraged as a general rule.
eMark
100 kW
Since when is informing newbies to first findout if their DIY upgrade mods are offtopic with respect to the builder/owner areas' ebike laws and regulations ??larsb said:
Maybe, it's long ovedue; especially when a prominent ES member is so bold as to say ebike laws & regs are "silly" ...
Oh Really! ... since when has ES stated that ebike laws & regs are off topic ?? Maybe it''s just that you don't want to be reminded to abide by ebike laws and regs. Thus giving the impression that ES also believes current ebike laws and regs have no relevancy to ES DIY build threads. Even when it's obvious in a thread that an 100A ebike (w/pedals) powerplant is 99.99% street/road illegal. Just one example being this thread ... https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=114340 ... even if no pedals.
Brings up an intriquing dilemma of sorts. Is a Sur-Ron still an ebike or is it a motorcycle if the intent of the owner is to exceed existing ebike laws & regs the majority of the time ? The Sur-Ron comes in two guises - Off road and road legal. The road-legal version is restricted to 30mph to comply with category L1e for mopeds. What about DIY build threads where it's obvious the intent of the builder is to go more than 30mph (just look the other way :wink: )
https://lunacycle.com/sur-ron-pedal-system/ ... so whether an owner uses this cheapy pedal system or a better one do ES modertors assume S-R owners ignore the "silly" area speed laws and regs? Otherwise why have a SurRon with pedals if its use is traveling at a modest 28mph ? Therefore we conclude that even in California (especially Cal) that speed laws & regs with respect to Sur-Ron and any upgrade modifications are OFF-TOPIC . Afterall what newbie would buy a Sur-Ron for the purpose of DIY upgrade modifications.
Maybe ES needs to inform us what ebike laws & regs are off-topic and which aren't off-topic. Especially with respect to newbie threads that want to upgrade their ebike for more power/speed than is possible with a 52V Hailong with only a 40amp BMS.
larsb
1 MW
eMark said:
Since always, but i’ll stop feeding the trolls now.. Sayonara!
