Willing to pay $ for guidance and mastermind needed! i want to build a 48v headway cell 16s 1p

sharinginfos

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HI i want to build a safe lifepo4 48 v 16s 1 p pack to test my motor and start using my xiongda 2 spêed.the controler asks for 15 amp peak and since i might up my motor or add another one in future, i figured out that a 30 amp or 60 amp pack would be futurproof and the cells allow it.

I'have read a lot but still noob, and part of me feel overwelmed with the quantity of decisons i need to take to make a fonctionnal safe lifepo4 pack and all the notions that are needed to understand to make those selections.

Is there somewhere a tutorial that list the parts i need to buy to buy and why for a safe 16s1p headway pack?
or
could someone experienced tell me something like : you should get this low level cutout or alarm ,with this bluetooth, bms(some are rated to fry at xamp some cut at x amp, different features included or not) with this charger(smart if possible but not satiator) charge to 3.4?3.6? and here is how to balance your cells . top of bottom balance ? i dont know do it need to balance just at the begining or it is something that have to be implemented in the pack? is internal resistance and capacity test necessary for those used cells ?you see i have noob questions that are big for me but might be simple for an experienced person. and i wonder if there is somewhere a tested and safe 16s1p design that i could simply copy and that has approval of the community? even bms is debated as if it is needed or not, you see the lack of clarity i am facing Hahaha. Then i would just respect how i am told to charge and rince and go on the adventure of ebike life.

I will buy used cells from hookup battery(i contacted them already and shipping is possible to canada and i am willing to pay what it takes without going crazy to get the right parts. It is just that i feel alone and though that maybe just coping a set up that is safe would be easier .
Am i wishing for the impossible or should i just quit this idea of having a ebike?

i know everyone has their life and limited time etc. I would be willing to pay a amount to receive guidance and explanation in part selections and assembly tips. im serious and recongnise that experience is valuable and patient supervision is what im looking for, how much 100 ? 200$ or art i do in exchange for the help? im more on the safer side so if you have a member name to suggest me that is also not paranoid but almost to suggest let me know.

Additionnal info :
-I intend to not push the cell so that they last longer , like maxing the charge at 90% would be ok for my use.
- i already have a opus bt 3100
the cells
https://batteryhookup.com/products/used-headway-38120-hp-3-2v-8ah-lifepo4-battery?_pos=4&_sid=aa527f285&_ss=r

thanks
 
Makes for a bulky battery, but you can buy the cell holders and bus bars from Battery Hookup or other vendors.

https://batteryhookup.com/products/headway-38120-single-cell-holders-spacers

Then make a 1x12 or 2x6 array. Wire the cells in series.Add a 16S LIfePO4 BMS. If you don't know what that means, buy Micah Tolls book on amazon on making ebike batteries.

https://www.amazon.com/DIY-Lithium-Batteries-Build-Battery/dp/0989906701/ref=sr_1_2?crid=TW2YHGL9EDPG&keywords=micah+toll+books&qid=1672963362&sprefix=micah+toll%2Caps%2C198&sr=8-2

headwa.jpg
 
docw009 said:
Then make a 1x12 or 2x6 array. Wire the cells in series.Add a 16S LIfePO4 BMS. If you don't know what that means, buy Micah Tolls book on amazon on making ebike batteries.


headwa.jpg

Shouldn't that be 1x 16 or 2x8 array? the image is a 2x8 array
later floyd
 
floydr said:
Shouldn't that be 1x 16 or 2x8 array? the image is a 2x8 array
later floyd

With that setup you would have one busbar connecting the two rows of cells while the rest of the busbars would connect each cell to the next along each row. In the pic I made those green lines would be the busbars on the front row of cells along the bottom.

Something to know about those headway cells is this. They cant take a whole lot of torque when tightening down those short M6 bolts. Be sure to torque them down according to the spec sheet and make sure they all get the same torque. Was messing around with another pack I made with rectangular LiFePO4 cells and noticed my internal resistance values were off while charging. I went along and gave each bolt the same amount of oomph and voila. Those internal resistance values dropped and were suddenly very close in value.

No money required btw. I do this for free to help out other hobbyists. :mrgreen:
 

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by floydr » Jan 05 2023 7:59pm

docw009 wrote: ↑Jan 05 2023 7:03pm

Then make a 1x12 or 2x6 array. Wire the cells in series.Add a 16S LIfePO4 BMS. If you don't know what that means, buy Micah Tolls book on amazon on making ebike batteries.



Shouldn't that be 1x 16 or 2x8 array? the image is a 2x8 array
later floyd
They don't need to be in single file to be a 1p. Make a turn at the end. Look at some battery pack builds on here.
 
ZeroEm said:
by floydr » Jan 05 2023 7:59pm

docw009 wrote: ↑Jan 05 2023 7:03pm

Then make a 1x12 or 2x6 array. Wire the cells in series.Add a 16S LIfePO4 BMS. If you don't know what that means, buy Micah Tolls book on amazon on making ebike batteries.



Shouldn't that be 1x 16 or 2x8 array? the image is a 2x8 array
later floyd
They don't need to be in single file to be a 1p. Make a turn at the end. Look at some battery pack builds on here.
12 cells can't make a 16s, the image in the post I replied to is of a 2x8 array which is a 16s battery pack and AFAIK it takes 16 cells to make a 16s battery pack. 1x12=12 2x6 =12?
later floyd
 
HI guys thx for the reply, I had already an idea about how to put them in a row. thanks for the tip of the not to tight screws, it is aligned with what i read before.

the questions written in the following paragraphe are the one that seems to be the hardest to answer . anyone has experience in building safe lifepo4 pack ? i dont remember their name but some are selecting very diligently .

-Low level voltage cutout or alarm ?
-wich bms? this bluetooth, bms(some are rated to fry at xamp some cut at x amp, different features included or not)

- wich charger(smart if possible but not satiator) charge to 3.4?3.6?

-balancing? your cells . top of bottom balance ? i dont know do it need to balance just at the begining or it is something that have to be implemented in the pack?

-is internal resistance and capacity test necessary for those used cells ?

?something to copy? you see i have noob questions that are big for me but might be simple for an experienced person. and i wonder if there is somewhere a tested and safe 16s1p design that i could simply copy and that has approval of the community? even bms is debated as if it is needed or not, you see the lack of clarity i am facing Hahaha. Then i would just respect how i am told to charge and rince and go on the adventure of ebike life.

-other safety usefull gadjet?
 
TrotterBob said:
floydr said:
Shouldn't that be 1x 16 or 2x8 array? the image is a 2x8 array
later floyd

With that setup you would have one busbar connecting the two rows of cells while the rest of the busbars would connect each cell to the next along each row. In the pic I made those green lines would be the busbars on the front row of cells along the bottom.

Something to know about those headway cells is this. They cant take a whole lot of torque when tightening down those short M6 bolts. Be sure to torque them down according to the spec sheet and make sure they all get the same torque. Was messing around with another pack I made with rectangular LiFePO4 cells and noticed my internal resistance values were off while charging. I went along and gave each bolt the same amount of oomph and voila. Those internal resistance values dropped and were suddenly very close in value.

No money required btw. I do this for free to help out other hobbyists. :mrgreen:
hello ThrottleBob thanks for the input i apreciate your free advice hihi , when i m saying im willing to send a payment , i m referring to someone that (i dont know who could) would tell me buy this part and why it is important ,suggestion where to buy , next buy this part why and where to buy, next part etc . Someone that knows all the parts that are necessary to build a safer headway pack and fit together, list them , i buy and can assemble them myself after. Someone like a mentor-dolfin relationship that would aggre to dedicate some time to guide me in the process. Maybe it has never been done before, i dont know but i feel the post could also help other noob to create a nice pack without having to become expert on all aspect of part selection cause lets face it there are a lot of different options available.
 
I can give you some advice for free. Don't trust Headway! The few times we have seen larger (premium) headway batteries they usually have dead cells and large imballance after a few years! And 8AH cannot handle 200A! Thats wishfull thinking. Boosted got busted since A123 2500mah cells could not handle 70A! Reseller later revised the rating to 50A but that is NOT for cycle life! What are you gonna use A 48V8Ah battery for?
 
Hi
I have already my motor: xiongda 2 48volt speedmotor high torque 350w rear. 15 amps max that i have yet to try.
the controller is a kt48svprc xd15d ,
rated current 7A;
max current:15A +-1A it looks similar to this one at bottom link at first glance.
It is mainly to go up 2 hills close to where i live while pedaling myself. with 16s 1p the weight would be sort of ok.
So that is a minimum to achieve but since i might add a second motor or juste replace the xiongda for a more amp capable motor in futur , i wish to build a battery with that in mind. Even if it is not 200 amp as you say , i would build the battery capable for a futur motor upgrade is possible. I also remember reading that giving the battery an edge is good since with time(use)batteries are said to get a little less powerfull.

When you write @revised the rating to 50A but that is NOT for cycle life@ what do you mean not for cycle life? are your talking about the headway 8ah from Batteryhookup?

When you write that headway cells usually have dead cells in do you mean when you buy an already made battery pack ?

I like headway since it is said to be easy to assemble and is lifepo4. I dont wish to spot weld . i can solder by that does not seem like a good idea in general with cells. I planned to but extra headway cells like maybe 19 cells (even though i only need 16 ) test them and take the 16 best and that would also give me a replacement cell in case i need to replace a cell un future years. I'm open to only charge the pack to 90 pourcent since it seems to allow to have a certain balancing that is stable from what i have very vaguely understood. And it gives a longer life to to pack.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3282132 ... IQaT6Ecexa
 
y sharinginfos » Jan 09 2023 11:27pm

Hi
I have already my motor: xiongda 2 48volt speedmotor high torque 350w rear. 15 amps max that i have yet to try.
the controller is a kt48svprc xd15d ,
rated current 7A;
max current:15A +-1A it looks similar to this one at bottom link at first glance.
It is mainly to go up 2 hills close to where i live while pedaling myself. with 16s 1p the weight would be sort of ok.
So that is a minimum to achieve but since i might add a second motor or juste replace the xiongda for a more amp capable motor in futur , i wish to build a battery with that in mind. Even if it is not 200 amp as you say , i would build the battery capable for a futur motor upgrade is possible.

I also remember reading that giving the battery an edge is good since with time(use)batteries are said to get a little less powerfull.
Age and using a battery reduces how power full (state of charge SOC) they are. Some battery types are better at retaining SOC. Draining a battery at it's recommended rate or higher shortens it's life. The edge is to add enough battery to reduce the discharge rate and extend the life.

When you write @revised the rating to 50A but that is NOT for cycle life@ what do you mean not for cycle life? are your talking about the headway 8ah from Batteryhookup?
He is talking about someone over stating the discharge rate of the headway cells they were buying.

When you write that headway cells usually have dead cells in do you mean when you buy an already made battery pack ?
They buy used battery packs, he's commenting on they get a lot of dead headway's.

I like headway since it is said to be easy to assemble and is lifepo4. I dont wish to spot weld . i can solder by that does not seem like a good idea in general with cells. I planned to but extra headway cells like maybe 19 cells (even though i only need 16 ) test them and take the 16 best and that would also give me a replacement cell in case i need to replace a cell un future years. I'm open to only charge the pack to 90 pourcent since it seems to allow to have a certain balancing that is stable from what i have very vaguely understood. And it gives a longer life to to pack.
Would not buy more than 1 extra, if you have two bad out of 16 would think it is a bad batch. You can use headway cells they are big. You need a primer on battery cell types, advantage and disadvantages. Headway is not used often because the energy/kg. You seem to be worried about your battery lasting, you may very well want a different battery before you use your first one up.
 
hi
@ You need a primer on battery cell types, advantage and disadvantages. Headway is not used often because the energy/kg. You seem to be worried about your battery lasting, you may very well want a different battery before you use your first one up.@

what does @you need a primer on battery cells type @mean? English is my second language.
I m not worried about battery lasting in an stong way. i just want a battery that is safe and will be able to allow upgrade in future.

iwas writing that for 5dollar i dont mind buying extras to cover what he was saying eventual dead cells.

what do you mean in other words @different battery before you use your first one up@ idont get it

thx
 
Would not believe in one person's experience with any type of cells, you need to hear from several or more.
different battery before you use your first one up@ idont get it
Sounds like you need more than one battery, maybe not. In a few years you will be needed another is what i'm was getting at.
 
You should buy a 16S charger. The OPUS 3100 is not set up tp do 16S, and the best you could do is run alligator clips to one cell and charge them one at a time. sixteen times. Will take 4-5 hours to charge one Headway at 2A. Might take two weeks to charge 16 cells unless you work from home. The OPUS is not realistic.

You also need a 16S LIFEPO4 BMS, available from Battery Hookup for $25.

I'm estimating about $140 US to buy the cells, holders, charger, and BMS. About $187 CDN before shipping?

I think that is better than buying a shrinkwrapped pack from China off ebay.ca for the same money. The chance of one of those packs lasting a year is 50-50 and they're dangerous.
 
sharinginfos said:
"I would be willing to pay a amount to receive guidance and explanation in part selections and assembly tips"

Work task Opportunity
Listen it for those who know some answers and want to get some cax! $100-$200 - opportunity! :bolt:
Thats a task work opportunity.
if U have battery knowledge, Go into consulting work services :bolt: :bolt:
cash floW :thumb: or noT :lowbatt:
 
by batteryGOLD » Jan 13 2023 8:00pm

sharinginfos wrote: ↑Jan 04 2023 11:07pm
"I would be willing to pay a amount to receive guidance and explanation in part selections and assembly tips"
Work task Opportunity
Listen it for those who know some answers and want to get some cax! $100-$200 - opportunity! :bolt:
Thats a task work opportunity.
if U have battery knowledge, Go into consulting work services :bolt: :bolt:
cash floW :thumb: or noT :lowbatt:
There is a section wanted. Some here are retired, others want to give freely. free advice and guidance some or most expect initiative.

Have a good day!
 
The Battery Doctor said:
I can give you some advice for free. Don't trust Headway! The few times we have seen larger (premium) headway batteries they usually have dead cells and large imballance after a few years! And 8AH cannot handle 200A! Thats wishfull thinking. Boosted got busted since A123 2500mah cells could not handle 70A! Reseller later revised the rating to 50A but that is NOT for cycle life! What are you gonna use A 48V8Ah battery for?
Worth posting again with respect to those $5 (USED) Headway cells via BH. Assuming your Controller's amperage draw is rated at 7amps continuous and 15amps peak then that's easy-peasy for those 200A Headways (when new) even if only now usable for pulling no more than 50-80amps.

That said, it's likely you'll have a challenge keeping the cells balanced in your 16S1P DIY with used Headway cells. That's why no one would ever charge you for advice when building a pack with used cells of questionable quality.

Yet ... a worthwhile learning experience (one way or the other) along your DIY battery build journey. Only one way to find out. You should pre-test (capacity/IR) if possible and pre-balance the cells before your DIY build ... GOOD LUCK!
 
At least a tip! :twisted:

I don't know about headaway cells, but I know that A123 are some state of art LiFe cells, mid cost and high drain / super fast charging possible plus wide available at market. (Battery Doctor knows!)
a bit low capacity for its size (compare to a 3000mAh or 3500mAh 18650..), but it lives longer and safer :bolt:

even possible to start a car with 4S A123 (gasoline engine), for petroil engine starter need 4S2P (because some petrol starter motor can go up to 1000A, while at gasoline it goes maybe 400A "gasoline motor starts with ignite, petrol is compression method, this leads to more load into starter motor, so more current") outoftopic :pancake:

anyway I've tested A123 at limits, doin 15A super fast charge. full charged in 8minuts! but at datasheet limit 10A 12min charge.
(battery 7S1P at kids electric drif tricycle :bolt: )
Also I've done agressive overcharge @ 12A, up to 4,3V per cell (maximum 3.6V minimum 2.5V) --> safe, no fire and no heat!
just keep under datasheet limits!

but if you already had bought the Headway cells, just build with those.. If you are choosing to buy, soo A123 is a good option :bolt:

$100-$200 is payment to the person that does hand work building battery and unsure its all safe and structural well designed :bolt: (knowledge plus hand work. similar to an architect, he draws building and than he goes to work at battle field doin cement, puting bricks and a roof).
How much U charge per hour at your work? :flame:

Next post will cost 50cents dollar :pancake:
 
That said, it's likely you'll have a challenge keeping the cells balanced in your 16S1P DIY with used Headway cells. That's why no one would ever charge you for advice when building a pack with used cells of questionable quality.

Hum humbly i have never done balancing . i read about it but i surely have no clue how to do it. From what you say correct me if im wrong but with used headway it is hard to build a battery that will need no maintenance?

if i am willing to use only 80% of battery when charging does that help?

what would be the challenge your are talking about?


Yet ... a worthwhile learning experience (one way or the other) along your DIY battery build journey. Only one way to find out. You should pre-test (capacity/IR) if possible and pre-balance the cells before your DIY build ... GOOD LUCK!
[/quote]

Do you mean i should do the pretest and prebalance before even deciding what will be the parts to order to build the pack?
 
batteryGOLD said:
At least a tip! :twisted:

I don't know about headaway cells, but I know that A123 are some state of art LiFe cells, mid cost and high drain / super fast charging possible plus wide available at market. (Battery Doctor knows!)
a bit low capacity for its size (compare to a 3000mAh or 3500mAh 18650..), but it lives longer and safer :bolt:

but if you already had bought the Headway cells, just build with those.. If you are choosing to buy, soo A123 is a good option :bolt:


$100-$200 is payment to the person that does hand work building battery and unsure its all safe and structural well designed :bolt: (knowledge plus hand work. similar to an architect, he draws building and than he goes to work at battle field doin cement, puting bricks and a roof).
How much U charge per hour at your work? :flame:

Next post will cost 50cents dollar :pancake:
Hi BatteryGold. Hope your doing well.
I have not buy any cells yet. I
Yes i am open to other lifepo4 cells BUT i dont want to spot weld if possible.It seems to complicated to build a spot welder i dont know wich part to buy . I feel i could learn how to spotweld, IF there is a easy safe way to build a spot welder but that is another thing i dont know how to build( spot welder)

With soldering im already confortable. I saw that eu.nkon. had A123cells but they dont ship to canada.
A123 seems to be a name that has a lot of fake copies that concerns me. There are so many vendors on aliexpress alibaba that i would not know wich seller to trust really .

So yes if there is a reliable knowed seller somewhere of A123 that ships to canada im open to that. Easiest would probably be with tabs(z or u) or with screw on if that exist. If not i guess i could try to build a spot welder if i have clear instructions ( since it is the only battery ill build i dont feel like buying a spotwelder just for that . WIth where to buy and how to assemble maybe it is quick to build a spotwelder, my researchs did not allow me to conclude to conclusion on that.

About the paying work question, my healt does not allow me to have a regular work unfortunately . The amount I offer is more symbolic cause probably it is worth more i dont know. Im willing to use my hands but i have a hard time making decisions in bettery building domain hence my proposal .

I do wonder though how bad is this keeping headway cells balanced through time. Maybe there is a way to do it. I just need the battery for 2 hills . And i can unscrewreplace a cell if the battery gives me clear sign to do so.
 
wow i m kind of stuck with several questions . it is both funny and painfull to acknoledge.

like is a123 really better than headway?
are there reliable seller of a123 if yes who at wich price?
can those a123 comme with tabs to avoid spotwelding?

another big quetions is should i top balance or bottom balance. ?
i looked at this video and the guy talks about couple options .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nPJFM4cLFY
this other guy is advising for top balancing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuCDUj2L7Wc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rALhwf9ojZQ

should i use a active balancer?
which kind of portable charger would i need? a adjustable one?
do i insert low voltage cut off?
The bms, it comes with so many features i would know wich to choose but i feel it need to be compatible with the charger .

what strategy do you guys recommend me to see make those choices? Is there a chance than someone has all those answers? Should i do multiple more precise posts?
 
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