Samsung INR18650-20R .. yes these cells can punch, new 24R

migueralliart

migueralliart

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West Palm Beach , FL
I've been communicating back and forth with an eBay seller who has a big selection of brand new power tool cells. Apparently they spot weld your packs for free. I was interested in this cell but wanted to see some discharge graphs. Fortunately for us a member of the budget light forum tested these and gave me permission to share here.

I ordered 15 4P bricks and asked the eBay seller to send me pics of the spot welds and they do a pretty good job.

I believe these are NCA according to the Samsung SDI page.

I'm awaiting shipment today or tomorrow... Will post my review here.

Update 3/8/13

8 bricks arrived today well packed. I'm still waiting on the other 7 bricks the tracking number says it is going to be delivered tomorrow so we'll see. I want them here to start the pack build thread.

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Update 3/22/13

Continuing the build now arranged in 15s just need to add the balance leads, discharge wires and heatshrink wrap it.

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Update 3/25/13

So I got around to finish this pack. It is a 15S 8Ah pretty compact pack. Added 22ga wire for balance wires to a DB25 breakout board for ease of balancing. I hope to enclose the breakout board in a small plastic enclosure or something. Discharge leads are 12ga cable with 45 amp andersons and a precharge plug already installed. The heatshrink I bought from batteryspace a while ago.

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Thank you for sharing this graph, I find it very interesting. My application would call for these cells to go 5C peak and from what I can see, they would do very well. I'm also impressed with the spot welding. So who's the ebay seller? Care to share that to? :D
 
mistercrash said:
Thank you for sharing this graph, I find it very interesting. My application would call for these cells to go 5C peak and from what I can see, they would do very well. I'm also impressed with the spot welding. So who's the ebay seller? Care to share that to? :D
Click to expand...

No problem in sharing ! :D

Ebay seller ID supowerbattery111

Now just remember to look for the ones under power tool cells as they have a higher discharge rate. They also have the panasonics PD which is said to be a really good fit as well but to me they're a bit expensive and I've had more success with the samsungs.


A lot of people bash 18650 cells but to me it all depends on you application.

For example say you draw 15 amps while cruising and 20 amps with a really strong headwind. If you have a 10AH pack made out of these cells you'd have a 5P configuration which is capable of 100amps surge. You'd be discharging at 2C or less for the "majority" of the time. I think they are the best 18650 I've seen so far and it grants testing them out.

As for the price well it all depends on the capacity you need. In my case I ordered 15 - 4P bricks so my battery will be 56V 8Ah with 444Whr. My commute is ~12 miles so this is plenty enough for me specially since I charge at work to extend battery life.

Total cost was 390$ shipped to the US. I'll take care of the welding in series as I need an odd shaped battery due to my idrive enclosure.


If someone would comment about the NCA chemistry and how it compares to other chemistry that'll be good. To me all I needed was a safer option than lipo that didn't sag as much and wasn't taking much more space.
 
I talked about that gasket on the pos. end yesterday and felt it is much needed. So how are you going to charge ? BMS or just balance wires ?
 
Looks like the 5C samsung cells that are starting to become popular for battery packs.
Looks like these are fairly happy at 2C continuous. 3-4C bursts are ok, but saggy.

10C? forget it. Your voltage drops 15% and that 15% turns into waste heat. 5C? 8% of your voltage will drop and turn to heat, so that's not necessarily a good condition either. But doable for short periods of time.

These look like they'd perform very well along the 1-3C range. Definitely an upgrade from standard issue 1-2C rated lifepo4.
 
999zip999 said:
I talked about that gasket on the pos. end yesterday and felt it is much needed. So how are you going to charge ? BMS or just balance wires ?
Click to expand...

I'm making two (one for my job and one for my house) Jeremy edition balance chargers with these db25 breakout boards using TITAN B3 chargers and a 6ft parallel cable.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300865555796?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

Also I'm considering making DB25 breakout to LIPO LVC alarms we'll see. All-battery also has a 15s bulk charger for less than 60$
 
If I am stopped in the middle of a 12 degree slope and I twist to full throttle to go up that hill on my e-moped, I will draw something like 100 amps for a short period to get my fat ass going. Full throttle on flat ground is around 30 amps. Going 20P with these cells would be close to 40Ah (according to graph, something like 1.9Ah usable per cell) so I would stay below the 3C even when I ask for the max.

Making a battery out of these would be so easy if they can spot weld 20P string for me. It would keep me from inhaling all those solder fumes. Thanks again for the info on this migueralliart.
 
74V or 20S20P of DocBass cells at the moment and they have been running very well for over six months now. But since they are used tool pack cells, I realize they can start fading at any time so I'm always looking for an alternative.
 
If they are indeed NCA, it's one of the best suited towards EV useage chemisties I'm aware of.

It's kinda the higher-power-density-capable replacement for NMC, which is typically considered the best of all currently widely available EV chemistries.

If Samsung is making NCA cells now, they've joined Panasonic as the first two I've heard of making the switch so far at a level where they are actually making meaningful volume production rather than just BS datasheets and engineering samples but no real production volume.

However, the Panasonic cell available seems to be favoring the energy side much more than this cell which is favoring the power side (which makes perfect sense if they are targeting the power tool market rather than lappys.)

I believe the NCA Panasonic cell is something like 2.9Ah real usable capacity, while still being ~>4C-ish capable.

This cell seems to be ~10C-ish capable, but sacrifices a good deal of capacity to get there. Still, for small packs with kick (like a power tool pack or small ebike pack etc), that's exactly what you want.
 
Here are two graphs that compare the PANASONIC and SAMSUNG cells at both 5A and 7.5A. AS you can see they are quite similar but at a higher discharge rate the samsung retains its voltage better than the panasonic. At a lower discharge rate the Panasonic wins but not by much.


samsung vs. panasonic 5A 1.jpg

 
Can you point us in the direction of the eBay vendor?
 
migueralliart said:
Here are two graphs that compare the PANASONIC and SAMSUNG cells at both 5A and 7.5A. AS you can see they are quite similar but at a higher discharge rate the samsung retains its voltage better than the panasonic. At a lower discharge rate the Panasonic wins but not by much.
Click to expand...
I would take the Panasonic if they are both priced similarly. The difference in voltage sag is small, the difference in capacity is huge.
 
migueralliart said:
I believe these are NCA according to the Samsung SDI page..
Click to expand...

confusing info here.
According to this site.. http://www.dampfakkus.de/liste_akkus.php
...the Samsung INR18650-20R is "IMR" chemistry, same as the Panasonic CGR18650CH.. ( and several other 18650 high performing cells) and is Lithium Manganese (LiMn2O4)
The only Samsung cell recorded as LiNiCoAl is the INR18650-29E

But , this .. http://flashlightwiki.com/Rechargeable..
.. suggests that the Panasonic CGR18650CH ( and hence the Samsung INR18650-20R ?) is actually a "INR" cell which is a Lithium Manganese Nickel (LiNiCoMn) cell
Lithium Manganese Nickel (LiNiCoMn) 3.7/cell
Similar to IMR cells above, and sometimes called INR, these batteries fall somewhere between LiCo and LiMn cells in safety. They do not usually have protection circuits, are not subject to thermal runaway, and are capable of high discharge rates of up to 10 amps. Panasonic makes 2250mAh cells that have the product number CGR18650CH and are available from Callie's Kustoms or International Outdoor.
Click to expand...
?????????????
do you have a link to the Samsung data ?
 
Ive heard Tesla has been supercharging and superdischarging their panny nca cells all this winter on a flatbed up in canada
no measurable loss in capacity :)
calendar life is now the larger issue
 
migueralliart said:
Here are two graphs that compare the PANASONIC and SAMSUNG cells at both 5A and 7.5A. AS you can see they are quite similar but at a higher discharge rate the samsung retains its voltage better than the panasonic. At a lower discharge rate the Panasonic wins but not by much.


View attachment 1

Click to expand...

In those graphs, the Panasonic is the much better cell. My guess would be these are just spinel. Nobody would make such a drastic energy compromise and end up at the same Ri as a cell with a lower 'C' rate which is only lower because its higher capacity. Both are making roughly the same heat for a given current load, one just lasts longer by a clear margin. Thats the NCA one. :)
 
liveforphysics said:
. Both are making roughly the same heat for a given current load, one just lasts longer by a clear margin. Thats the NCA one. :)
Click to expand...

but the Panasonic is a 2.9Ahr cell and the Samsung is only a 2.0 Ahr ??

It would seem from that http://www.dampfakkus.de/liste_akkus.php site, there are a lot of NCA cells available.
But if you want something to hold up under high discharge it would look like the AW IMR 18650 1600mAh (Red) is the top dog..
http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/AW%20IMR%2018650%201600mAh%20%28Red%29%20UK.html
AW%20IMR%2018650%201600mAh%20(Red)-Capacity.png
 
SamTexas said:
migueralliart said:
Here are two graphs that compare the PANASONIC and SAMSUNG cells at both 5A and 7.5A. AS you can see they are quite similar but at a higher discharge rate the samsung retains its voltage better than the panasonic. At a lower discharge rate the Panasonic wins but not by much.
Click to expand...
I would take the Panasonic if they are both priced similarly. The difference in voltage sag is small, the difference in capacity is huge.
Click to expand...

I agree to that....


But this seller has the Panasonic's at 12.40$ plus 1$ shipping per cell. The Samsung I got was 6.50$ free shipping. It is a significant difference in price.
 
migueralliart said:
I agree to that....


But this seller has the Panasonic's at 12.40$ plus 1$ shipping per cell. The Samsung I got was 6.50$ free shipping. It is a significant difference in price.
Click to expand...
Sounds good to me if the Samsung performance is adequate for the application. At $6.50, the Samsung costs about the same as an A123 26650 cell ($/Wh), but is much smaller and much lighter.
 
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