Ambri: Storing Electricity for our Future

Kingfish

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Ambri|Technology

I lost the original link that lead me to this company, though it was a video - perhaps on NBCNEWS - that talked about how these guys were breaking ground in the field of energy storage for utilities by using Liquid Metal Batteries, a technology that has its' root in MIT research. Though not directly applicable to EVs (yet), it does appear to address the common problem of storing fluctuating power.

I just found the information thought provoking and interesting.
Energized, KF
 
Interesting stuff. Would be really nice for storing solar energy since this seems to operate at a larger scale than ebikes would be able to handle.
 
I see potential in it. :)
 
parabellum said:
Have seen it on TED 2 years ago, exited. Then 2 years silence, like every apparently promising battery technology.

Promising is not the same as making a promise. Quite the opposite, actually. They'll only promise it to you if it's not so promising.
 
Dauntless said:
parabellum said:
Have seen it on TED 2 years ago, exited. Then 2 years silence, like every apparently promising battery technology.

Promising is not the same as making a promise. Quite the opposite, actually. They'll only promise it to you if it's not so promising.
And here the results of 2 last years "hard work" they are proud of:
The company has filed or has licensing rights to more than 30 domestic and international patents and patent applications and continues to pursue broad coverage.
 
Found the link; unavoidable 30s commercial at the beginning:
Windfall: Could a Battery Change Renewable Energy Forever?

Hillhater: It's electrical storage with liquid metal anode/cathode; operates at high enough heat to keep the contacts with the "electrolyte" melted ad infinitum thus do not suffer the slow degrading effects that shorten the lives of more traditional batteries. The original link at the top of the thread explains in better detail.

To be applicable for EVs I think we'd have to find a room-temp liquid metal-alloy other than Mercury; wouldn't that be fun to research on Lotto winnings :)
Dreaming, KF
 
What I don't like about battery technology these days:

1) Too many companies claiming "we have the best batteries" BUT it's 5-10 years away before it can be commercialize. Then why advertise???!!! By then, there will be much better batteries than yours!

2) Too many companies claiming "we have the cheapest batteries" BUT it's 5-10 years away before it can be commercialize. WTF???!!! Just give me the battery already! And we all know it will NOT be cheap because you will try to license the crap out of it so thus pushing the cost to consumer. NOT so cheap after all huh? Want cheap battery, open source the design and process. Let others improve on it.

3) Too many companies claiming "we have the highest density batteries or highest discharge batteries" BUT it's 5-10 years away before it can be commercialize. Not falling for that one again. First off, at this point, we don't care much about high discharge. Sure there might be applications which needs it... like drag racing and waiting 5 hours to recharge before another drag. Right now what the industry need is higher density at a much lower cost. Also make sure this high density batteries can last. It makes no sense if you can get 500wh/kg when new but then it drops 250Wh/kg or worst just after 10-20 cycles. No one will be buying your batteries, use it 10 cycles, then dump it... unless you plan to sell it at much much lower cost than others.

4) Too many companies claiming "we have the cleanest or most sustainable batteries" BUT it's 5-10 years away before it can be commercialize. I'm tired of hearing these type of news. Yes I am all for sustainable batteries, but if it's 5 to 10 years from now, who cares. I'm sure by then we have much better ways to recycle or use less resource to build current gen batteries. Hence your research is mean nothing.

What I really want to hear from the battery industry is similar to what is being done in kickstarter. "Give us the money to scale!" Most news nowadays on batteries are for batteries that will be 5-10 years realizable if everything goes as plan. This is too long to wait and at the rate the world is changing, who knows if we will still be using batteries then. My point is companies should just do R&D and keep to themselves. Once they have something which is manufacturable, then do a kickstarter campaign or something similar and ask for the money to scale. Make sure you know how to scale properly before going to the public to ask for money. No 5-10 years wait. Just scale and sell batteries within 1 year. Now is that really hard to ask???!!!
 
mvly said:
What I don't like about battery technology these days:

1) Too many companies claiming "we have the best batteries" BUT it's 5-10 years away before it can be commercialize. Then why advertise???!!! By then, there will be much better batteries than yours!

To get investors. You have to show some promise for a future payment stream for someone with the dough to hand it over.

2) Too many companies claiming "we have the cheapest batteries" BUT it's 5-10 years away before it can be commercialize. WTF???!!! Just give me the battery already! And we all know it will NOT be cheap because you will try to license the crap out of it so thus pushing the cost to consumer. NOT so cheap after all huh? Want cheap battery, open source the design and process. Let others improve on it.

Sadly another problem with our current market scheme. Other (social) species teach and learn from each other within the species because they understand that they are together in a cause to perpetuate their species and improve their lot. We are competing to get the largest slice of the pie for ourselves

3) Too many companies claiming "we have the highest density batteries or highest discharge batteries" BUT it's 5-10 years away before it can be commercialize. Not falling for that one again. First off, at this point, we don't care much about high discharge. Sure there might be applications which needs it... like drag racing and waiting 5 hours to recharge before another drag. Right now what the industry need is higher density at a much lower cost. Also make sure this high density batteries can last. It makes no sense if you can get 500wh/kg when new but then it drops 250Wh/kg or worst just after 10-20 cycles. No one will be buying your batteries, use it 10 cycles, then dump it... unless you plan to sell it at much much lower cost than others.

4) Too many companies claiming "we have the cleanest or most sustainable batteries" BUT it's 5-10 years away before it can be commercialize. I'm tired of hearing these type of news. Yes I am all for sustainable batteries, but if it's 5 to 10 years from now, who cares. I'm sure by then we have much better ways to recycle or use less resource to build current gen batteries. Hence your research is mean nothing.

What I really want to hear from the battery industry is similar to what is being done in kickstarter. "Give us the money to scale!" Most news nowadays on batteries are for batteries that will be 5-10 years realizable if everything goes as plan. This is too long to wait and at the rate the world is changing, who knows if we will still be using batteries then. My point is companies should just do R&D and keep to themselves. Once they have something which is manufacturable, then do a kickstarter campaign or something similar and ask for the money to scale. Make sure you know how to scale properly before going to the public to ask for money. No 5-10 years wait. Just scale and sell batteries within 1 year. Now is that really hard to ask???!!!

Growing and emerging technology can't compete at the scale and production that corporations that have '1-year-out' technologies. So they need to shoot for that next technological "leap".
 
mvly said:
What I really want to hear from the battery industry is similar to what is being done in kickstarter. "Give us the money to scale!" Most news nowadays on batteries are for batteries that will be 5-10 years realizable if everything goes as plan. This is too long to wait and at the rate the world is changing, who knows if we will still be using batteries then. My point is companies should just do R&D and keep to themselves. Once they have something which is manufacturable, then do a kickstarter campaign or something similar and ask for the money to scale. Make sure you know how to scale properly before going to the public to ask for money. No 5-10 years wait. Just scale and sell batteries within 1 year. Now is that really hard to ask???!!!

Kickstarter? Why do you think they say they have all this building for ten years down the road? You can get far more money out of people who scoff at:

parabellum said:
And here the results of 2 last years "hard work" they are proud of:
The company has filed or has licensing rights to more than 30 domestic and international patents and patent applications and continues to pursue broad coverage.

BUT you need a way to get them to invest anyway, just in case. Ah yes, the high risk for a potential high reward part of the portfolio. If they really do buy into the one that hits big, what a payoff. The timetable HAS to be 5-10 years down the road or people will expect results sooner. They don't have to come up with an explanation for 5-10 years this way.

The whole point of all this good news is it brings the investment in all this promising stuff. Kickstarter is for when all your pride in your "Hard Work" isn't paying off. To paraphrase Dan Ackroyd in 'Ghostbusters,' the maybe a decade down the road timeline is a safe place that provides a comfortable lab for their experiments. If they've been to Kickstarter (Looking for a lot less money) they know THOSE people aren't like the decade timeline: For THEIR nickels and dimes, they expect results.

No no, you're going to keep hearing the things you don't like about battery technology.

And you will keep hearing from people whose internal slogan is "Promising without Promises."
 
Now ready for prime time. Another MIT roll-out. Watch Don Sadoway's TED talk. Very inspiring. FYI, Marlborough is just up the road from me.
Cambridge company’s battery may give grid a boost
Storage devices should help electric utilities meet power demand at peak times
By Jon Chesto GLOBE STAFF

DECEMBER 30, 2014

A power core at Ambri’s manufacturing plant in Marlborough. The company doubled the size of the plant in the fall to accommodate at least five pilot projects. Ambri is planning to test five prototypes in 2015.

It might be impossible to catch lightning in a bottle. But an MIT materials science professor, Don Sadoway, has figured out a way to pack it in a box not much bigger than a washing machine.

After years of lab work at the Cambridge company that’s now known as Ambri Inc., Sadoway’s liquid-metal batteries will be connected to the electric grid in 2015 for the first time.

Affordable, efficient power storage is a long-sought Holy Grail for the utility industry. The grid-scale batteries currently available use the same technology that is in laptops and cellphones and are considered impractical for widescale use, in part because they break down over time.

To keep the system running reliably, a number of inefficient power plants are forced to operate only during times of peak electricity demand, remaining idle for much of the year.

Ambri’s executives say they have a more affordable solution: The company’s unique approach with liquid metals, developed with Bill Gates’s financial help, leads to almost no degradation within the battery shells and allows for a lifespan of a decade or more.

The goal is to allow electric utilities or big industrial plants to store power so it can be released at times of high usage.

“The long-term picture is about changing the very nature of the electric system,” said Ambri’s chief executive, Phil Giudice, who previously was Governor Deval Patrick’s energy resources commissioner. “This changes the whole grid.”

In the fall, Ambri doubled the size of its first manufacturing plant in Marlborough to 10,000 square feet to accommodate at least five pilot projects and some future commercial work. The company employs 42 people now, including 15 who are expected to work in Marlborough starting in January.

Giudice said he will start looking in 2015 for a place to put Ambri’s first full-size plant. He has already been courted by several New England governors who want it to be built in their states, he said, as well as by representatives of China and South Africa.

Ambri’s technology has its roots in Sadoway’s lab work, when the popular Massachusetts Institute of Technology professor applied his knowledge of metallurgy to electricity storage. (Sadoway remains active with Ambri as its chief scientific officer, a board member, and an equity owner.) Sadoway and cofounder David Bradwell received $7 million in federal funds in 2007 to develop the concept.

Three years later, Sadoway got a big break when an anonymous Washington resident took one of his courses remotely, Giudice said. That person, it later turned out, was Microsoft cofounder Bill Gates. He was so impressed with Sadoway that he decided to invest some of his own money in the concept in 2010.

The French energy conglomerate Total joined Gates in the firm’s first investment rounds, after giving $4 million to Sadoway’s MIT lab for research. By April, Ambri had received more than $50 million from a number of investors.

“They’re really aiming at a big structural problem around energy storage and trying to bring a novel solution,” said the chief executive of the Massachusetts Clean Energy Center, Alicia Barton. Her ratepayer-funded agency awarded $150,000 to Ambri in 2013 and gave it an additional $29,000 to subsidize interns. “This is a jumping-off point for them to what are really global markets,” she said.

In 2015, Ambri will test five prototypes, including one subsidized by the Clean Energy Center at Joint Base Cape Cod and others in Hawaii, New York, and Alaska. These prototype devices will be smaller and less powerful than the commercial versions that will be delivered in 2016.

The commercial-grade “Ambri Cores,” as they’re called, will each be rated at 200 kilowatt hours — or enough power for 10 to 15 homes per day — and will typically be sold in groups of five or more. Ambri plans to complete its first commercial sale in 2016, as part of a Raytheon Co.-led project in Hawaii.

At first, Ambri will focus on isolated areas where electricity is more expensive. But there are other locations throughout the electric grid where Ambri also wants to help. The company plans to court big industrial and commercial users, as well.

Ian Bowles, managing director of the clean-energy financier WindSail Capital Group of Boston, said utilities are showing more interest in buying energy-storage devices. Ambri is “arriving at a good time where the market is just starting to form,” he said.

Giudice envisions eventually opening factories — each employing as many as 150 people — with local partners near future clients around the world.

“They’re in this by themselves, without a lot of other people doing something similar, so they can’t borrow ideas from other people,” said Richard Baxter, a Boston-based energy consultant.

“That also gives them a distinct advantage. If they’re able to make this work, they’ll be in a great situation. . . . The whole space is theirs.”
ambri.png
http://www.ambri.com/
http://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_renewable_energy?language=en
 
Not useful for ebikes, E-moto or EV cars, but...for grid storage?...this is sounding like the future, by a large margin. There are now solar panels that emphasize electrical generation in the UV range, so they can harvest energy even on a cloudy day.

Unusually affordable, and incredibly long-lasting, made from abundant elements...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDxegcZqx_8&t=1752s

[youtube]pDxegcZqx_8[/youtube]
 
But its not all roses !....
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/608059/why-bad-things-happen-to-clean-energy-startups/
........EnerVault, which was developing what are known as flow batteries, put itself up for sale after failing to find additional investors in 2015. Later that year, liquid-metal battery startup Ambri laid off a quarter of its staff. Around that same time,.........
 
Most of the molten metal elecrode and/or molten salt electrolyte stuff works phenomenally well both on paper and in a small test cell.

Then in practice the God's of corrosion tend to frown on letting scaled versions survive for long.
 
spinningmagnets said:
Not useful for ebikes, E-moto or EV cars, but...for grid storage?...this is sounding like the future, by a large margin. There are now solar panels that emphasize electrical generation in the UV range, so they can harvest energy even on a cloudy day.

Unusually affordable, and incredibly long-lasting, made from abundant elements...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDxegcZqx_8&t=1752s
It seems Sadoway and MIT have not quite settled on exactly how to do this..
They are now experimenting with a metal mesh "membrane" between the molten layers..
http://news.mit.edu/2018/metal-mesh-membrane-rechargeable-batteries-renewable-energy-0122
....But Sadoway and his team took a different approach, realizing that the functions of that membrane could instead be performed by a specially coated metal mesh, a much stronger and more flexible material that could stand up to the rigors of use in industrial-scale storage systems.
“I consider this a breakthrough,” Sadoway says, because for the first time in five decades, this type of battery — whose advantages include cheap, abundant raw materials, very safe operational characteristics, and an ability to go through many charge-discharge cycles without degradation — could finally become practical.
Note that final comment..."could finally become practical". ?
 
[Youtube]ZRyo0Nr7CrY[/youtube]
 
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