2 60v 20a lifepo4
- Thread starter new2thiss
- Start date
Enough voltage to hurt and make really big sparks.new2thiss said:
Very carefully, and by reading about all the many threads on putting batteries in series.
Not curious enough to read about what others have already done, I'm guessing. :/
markz
100 TW
Batteries connected in series you add the voltage of each battery.
Batteries connected in parallel you add the amp-hours of each battery.
Anything close to or above 100Vdc is very deadly!
Batteries connected in parallel you add the amp-hours of each battery.
Anything close to or above 100Vdc is very deadly!
dogman dan
1 PW
Doubling your voltage almost sure to let the magic smoke out of your controller. Then when you replace the controller, fairly likely the smoke comes from the motor, unless you have a very big motor to begin with.
Read and learn, so you don't KFF.
Read and learn, so you don't KFF.
amberwolf said:Enough voltage to hurt and make really big sparks.new2thiss said:
Very carefully, and by reading about all the many threads on putting batteries in series.
Not curious enough to read about what others have already done, I'm guessing. :/
Thank you for taking the time to be that guy. I feel much more foolish now that youve writtenthat. Except I don't. I'm actually on this site a lot, but the information is not specific to what I want to do so I'd like concrete information specific to what I'm considering doing. If you can't help great, but don't be an asshole.
dogman dan said:
My intention WAS to get a Kelly controller and 3kw motor. But I kind of like the idea of parallel more. So I think that is the route I'm going to take. Thank your for happily providing information, and not being a douche bag :wink:
999zip999
100 TW
Take baby steps.
wb9k
10 kW
new2thiss said:amberwolf said:Enough voltage to hurt and make really big sparks.new2thiss said:
Very carefully, and by reading about all the many threads on putting batteries in series.
Not curious enough to read about what others have already done, I'm guessing. :/
Thank you for taking the time to be that guy. I feel much more foolish now that youve writtenthat. Except I don't. I'm actually on this site a lot, but the information is not specific to what I want to do so I'd like concrete information specific to what I'm considering doing. If you can't help great, but don't be an asshole.
As a guy who works with stuff that breaks, or gets broken as the case may be, allow me to play "Devil's advocate" for a moment here. The fact is that the question you're asking here is so basic (I assure you that a search for "connecting in series" would yield something--elsewhere on the web if not here), that it begs the question of whether you should be playing with stuff at all just yet. You ARE working with stuff here that can kill you, and the fact that you don't know what happens when batteries are put in series tells me that you shouldn't be working with the real thing AT ALL just yet--you just don't know enough to be safe with yourself or others around you yet. The guy you called an asshole here for trying to potentially save your life had his house burnt down by a battery fire. All those dogs with the halos in his avatar were killed in that fire. He knows very well--NOW--what the dangers really are. So when he comes upon you asking a question somewhat akin to "does my desktop computer really have to be plugged in to work?", what would you rather he do? Tell himself it won't happen to you? He's doing you a favor, and you need to have the humility to listen.
If you're not finding what you're looking for on this forum, you may want to take a step back and study electricity and electronics generically for a bit before getting into battery specific stuff. Read up on safe workshop practices too. Your life may well depend on it.
Apologies for the OT, but this is necessary to clarify something important:
I appreciate your input and defending me, but this is very wrong.
There was no battery fire. The batteries I had were not in the room that burned, and all survived the fire (though several were stolen during the house rebuilding it).
The actual cause of the fire was not specifically determined, but it's ignition point was, and it was a spot of floor that was bare of anything for at least 2 feet in every direction. The suspected cause was spontaneous combustion of the asbestos mastic the tiles were glued down with several decades earlier; they said that has happened before.
(EDIT: But you are correct in that I was trying to get the OP to read more, because having to ask this kind of question shows that the OP is not ready to be doing what he's asking about. Unfortunately no matter what way I go about telling people that sort of thing, they always think badly of me and often call me names.)
wb9k said:
I appreciate your input and defending me, but this is very wrong.
There was no battery fire. The batteries I had were not in the room that burned, and all survived the fire (though several were stolen during the house rebuilding it).
The actual cause of the fire was not specifically determined, but it's ignition point was, and it was a spot of floor that was bare of anything for at least 2 feet in every direction. The suspected cause was spontaneous combustion of the asbestos mastic the tiles were glued down with several decades earlier; they said that has happened before.
(EDIT: But you are correct in that I was trying to get the OP to read more, because having to ask this kind of question shows that the OP is not ready to be doing what he's asking about. Unfortunately no matter what way I go about telling people that sort of thing, they always think badly of me and often call me names.)
wb9k
10 kW
amberwolf said:
I stand corrected...sorry for my confusion. I though I had read a long time ago it was a battery fire.
That said, I stand by the rest of my statements.
wb9k said:
Maybe I'm not being clear enough. Regardless of his experiences, I'd appreciate a proper answer if the person responding wishes to provide one. The problem is not the answer, the problem is the condescending crap that its coming decorated in.
I asked the question generally because I figured someone would be a Lil bit elaborate on the different results, methods to approach and things to look out for.
The appropriate answer would have been 120 volts, not a frocking bunch of sparks and a loud bang. That's not answering the question. Its talking to me like I'm stupid.
I wasn't attacking anybody, he was being condescending, it was implied, and I dont appreciate it.
For someone who went through such an unfortunate situation you'd expect a little bit more seriousness when someone who may be inexperienced is asking a legitimate question to the pros for guidance.
And again I have read things on this forum. The reason fueling my initial question is because I read someone talking about having 2 same lifepo4 batteries and using a switch to alternate between one source of power or the other. I liked that idea better then having 120 volts racing through my bike, but thought I'd ask anyways to see if it was difficult.
People should spend more time being humble and answering what they choose and less time trying to make people sound stupid simply for being new. If it wasn't for forums like these a lot of people would find out the hard way, so contribute what you like, and if you dont have anything nice to say then dont say anything at all. Seriously.
I have moderate knowledge, but none with respect to combining batteries. So I'm doing what I'm supposed to and researching. So can we leave it at that? I really like this forum please dont ruin it for me.
Chalo
100 TW
To address your original question, two identical 60v batteries in series make a 120v battery of the same Ah capacity as the single units.
To address other people's concerns, 60v is already higher than "generally recognized as safe" voltage, and 120v can easily kill you if you close the circuit with your body.
I have a battery of over 100 nominal volts, and it's difficult to find a controller rated for that much voltage. 60v is already pretty high for an e-bike; perhaps you should consider putting your batteries in parallel if you want more range from your system.
To address other people's concerns, 60v is already higher than "generally recognized as safe" voltage, and 120v can easily kill you if you close the circuit with your body.
I have a battery of over 100 nominal volts, and it's difficult to find a controller rated for that much voltage. 60v is already pretty high for an e-bike; perhaps you should consider putting your batteries in parallel if you want more range from your system.
markz
100 TW
I remember this from electrical class.......its amps that kill, not voltage.
However DC current will make a single continuous contraction of the muscles compared to AC current, which will make a series of contractions depending on the frequency it is supplied at. In terms of fatalities, both kill but more milliamps are required of DC current than AC current at the same voltage.
If the current takes the path from hand to hand thus passing through the heart it can result in fibrillation of the heart. Fibrillation is a condition when all the heart muscles start moving independently in a disorganized manner rather than in a state of coordination. It affects the ability of the heart to pump blood, resulting in brain damage and eventual cardiac arrest.
Either AC or DC currents can cause fibrillation of the heart at high enough levels. This typically takes place at 30 mA of AC (rms, 60 Hz) or 300 – 500 mA of DC.
Though both AC and DC currents and shock are lethal, more DC current is required to have the same effect as AC current. For example, if you are being electrocuted or shocked 0.5 to 1.5 milliamps of AC 60 Hz current is required and up to 4 mA of DC current is required. For the let-go threshold in AC a current of 3 to 22 mA is required against 15 to 88 of DC current.
1-10 Milliampers
Person will feel little or no electrical shock effects or sensation.
10-20 Milliampers
Painful shock will occur like a jolt, but muscle control will not be lost at this amperage.
20-75 Milliampers
This shock is more serious. You'll receive a a painful jolt and muscle control will be lost resulting in the inability to let go of something you may have grabbed that is shocking you.
75-100 Milliamperage
As the current approaches 100 milliamperes, ventricular fibrillation of the heart occurs and damage is done.
100-200 Milliamperes
Ventricular fibrillation occurs and death can occur if medical attention is not administered quickly.
Over 200 Milliamperes
Severe burns and severe muscle contractions occur. Your heart can stop during a shock because the chest muscles put pressure on the heart. Internal organs can be damaged at this stage and in you survive, a painful recovery can be expected. What may surprise you about this level of shock is that through this clamping effect on the heart, ventricular fibrillation is avoided and the chances of a person's survival is good if the victim is removed from the electrical circuit.
However DC current will make a single continuous contraction of the muscles compared to AC current, which will make a series of contractions depending on the frequency it is supplied at. In terms of fatalities, both kill but more milliamps are required of DC current than AC current at the same voltage.
If the current takes the path from hand to hand thus passing through the heart it can result in fibrillation of the heart. Fibrillation is a condition when all the heart muscles start moving independently in a disorganized manner rather than in a state of coordination. It affects the ability of the heart to pump blood, resulting in brain damage and eventual cardiac arrest.
Either AC or DC currents can cause fibrillation of the heart at high enough levels. This typically takes place at 30 mA of AC (rms, 60 Hz) or 300 – 500 mA of DC.
Though both AC and DC currents and shock are lethal, more DC current is required to have the same effect as AC current. For example, if you are being electrocuted or shocked 0.5 to 1.5 milliamps of AC 60 Hz current is required and up to 4 mA of DC current is required. For the let-go threshold in AC a current of 3 to 22 mA is required against 15 to 88 of DC current.
1-10 Milliampers
Person will feel little or no electrical shock effects or sensation.
10-20 Milliampers
Painful shock will occur like a jolt, but muscle control will not be lost at this amperage.
20-75 Milliampers
This shock is more serious. You'll receive a a painful jolt and muscle control will be lost resulting in the inability to let go of something you may have grabbed that is shocking you.
75-100 Milliamperage
As the current approaches 100 milliamperes, ventricular fibrillation of the heart occurs and damage is done.
100-200 Milliamperes
Ventricular fibrillation occurs and death can occur if medical attention is not administered quickly.
Over 200 Milliamperes
Severe burns and severe muscle contractions occur. Your heart can stop during a shock because the chest muscles put pressure on the heart. Internal organs can be damaged at this stage and in you survive, a painful recovery can be expected. What may surprise you about this level of shock is that through this clamping effect on the heart, ventricular fibrillation is avoided and the chances of a person's survival is good if the victim is removed from the electrical circuit.
Chalo said:
Ideally I love speed.. The more speed the less I care about ah because I can get to where I'm going easier without worrying about it dieing. I dont think it would be difficult to take them it nightly and recharge them seperately. If there was a truly safe way to do this I'd love more information from someone who knows.
Parallel is a good idea too.
Above both of those ideas what I'd really like and so far sounds really good is having a s witch, so when one dies, I can switch to the other fully charged battery. Evidentally doubling the range without being in parallel but basically simulating this.
I'm not sure what kind of a switch I'd need so if someone had any input on that idea I'd love the information.
If I WAS to do 120v obviously this is not impossible. Am I right in assuming I'd simply need a new controller that supports 120v, and a new hub at 3kw because I'd be pumping out 2400 watts ?
Again thank you for responding with helpful information. Be as elaborate as you like, I want to know exactly what I'm doing.
For example : http://kellycontroller.com/khb1215124-120v150aopto-bldc-controllerwith-regen-p-1298.html
Is this an e bike compatible controller? Its different from the traditional controllers so I'm unsure. Could you guys paste me some 120v e bike compatible controller? I really dont know of any custom controller sits beyond Kelly controllers.
Is this an e bike compatible controller? Its different from the traditional controllers so I'm unsure. Could you guys paste me some 120v e bike compatible controller? I really dont know of any custom controller sits beyond Kelly controllers.
markz
100 TW
1) more speed = more juice gone-so = more ah needed.
2) not a lot of selection on a controller of that voltage.....if any.
The best deal for you, is to pick a voltage in the range of 60V to 84V, you will find plenty of controllers that fit that range. Next, pick a motor....Direct Drive or Geared or Mid Drive. What type of battery chemistry will you use? RC Lipo, LifePO4, Nimh etc. Then you need a charger, you gunna cheap out and wait hours for it to charge? You are easily looking at a G-note.....easy.
You want speed, go Direct Drive mxus 3000w v2 MONSTER!!!!, at 84V with a Infineon Controller beefed up traces etc. Slam in some LifePO4 or is it LifePO3, whichever. Or maybe some Li-Ion from EM3ev, or ebikes.ca etc etc etc.
You go for speed, you stick out, you get fined, you may go to jail depending on if the copper had his donut break yet or not.
You go for speed, hope you have paid your health insurance up.
Best not to stick out. Best to blend in. Best not to piss anyone off.
edit: There you go $450 for a 120V controller. Most other controllers are $200. Mine was Lyen.com infineon 18fet $200.
2) not a lot of selection on a controller of that voltage.....if any.
The best deal for you, is to pick a voltage in the range of 60V to 84V, you will find plenty of controllers that fit that range. Next, pick a motor....Direct Drive or Geared or Mid Drive. What type of battery chemistry will you use? RC Lipo, LifePO4, Nimh etc. Then you need a charger, you gunna cheap out and wait hours for it to charge? You are easily looking at a G-note.....easy.
You want speed, go Direct Drive mxus 3000w v2 MONSTER!!!!, at 84V with a Infineon Controller beefed up traces etc. Slam in some LifePO4 or is it LifePO3, whichever. Or maybe some Li-Ion from EM3ev, or ebikes.ca etc etc etc.
You go for speed, you stick out, you get fined, you may go to jail depending on if the copper had his donut break yet or not.
You go for speed, hope you have paid your health insurance up.
Best not to stick out. Best to blend in. Best not to piss anyone off.
edit: There you go $450 for a 120V controller. Most other controllers are $200. Mine was Lyen.com infineon 18fet $200.
dnmun
1 PW
except 40S is not 120V either. it is more like 144V+ DC with 3.60V balancing in the BMS.
markz
100 TW
Craziness!
I would like to see the spark on that when you connect up the power leads.
Im at 67V and I jump!
At 84V I jumped even higher!
I would like to see the spark on that when you connect up the power leads.
Im at 67V and I jump!
At 84V I jumped even higher!
markz said:
I have been stopped by the police plenty. For stupid things, never speed. None of them even question the bike, they just let me go. I'm not worried about that. And I dont want to get into a huge debate about it trust me I am not worried.
I would just get a hub off of Kelly controller because I dont have a bike I have a scooter. Like a big scooter with a body and such not a bicycle. So I'm not worried about the motor.
My intention is to stick with lifepo4 because its what I already have. I dont care about ah because I know my battery and I know how to cruise and get the speed without draining. It gets me everywhere I want to go already I would just like the extra speed. And I like the longevity of lifepo4. That is way more important to me then any other aspect of the battery because these batteries are not cheap.
I'm not going to cheap out on a charger, I have a 6 amp charger and my battery charges very fast. I'll have a second for the other battery as well.
Is that controller a viable option?
And what is this spark your talking about? Just from the initial connection? Isn't that normal or is it dangerous?
All I want to know is how I would do this correctly if it was something I decided to do.
markz said:
With what you're talking about. Are you saying if I got a really good controller and a really good motor I could make an 84v much better then it would be for someone using generic controllers and motors? Could you elaborate a little more on this?
What is a g note?
And I dont know a lot about direct drive, geared, or mid drive? Could you explain more?
And thank you for your help.
markz said:
Also could you point me in the direction of 84v solutions? I can't find anything I've looked into he past. Combining 2 60 volt batteries just seemed easier. 84v would be awesome. It'd all be a awesome if it didn't cost a grand... But that might be wishful thinking lol
Gregory
100 kW
new2thiss said:
Not really because you would have 2400Wh. You could easily peak over 5kW from the battery.
You should also care about Ah, at least as far as how it will work with the battery C rate to get you the current you require.
As a beginner I'd be looking for a fast wind (low turn count) motor and running voltages below the 100V mark.
Check out the "I'm a noob and I wanna go 50mph" thread.
Gregory said:
I also don't want to waste money getting to know things. I just want to know what I need to turn my bike into a ferrari and where to get it lol. This is the bike I'm getting :
http://scooterelectriquemontreal.ca/P-Electra-Daniel-Bicycle-vente-reparation-pieces-batterie-Montreal-scooter-electrique.html
I want it to be able to go up to 70 or 80 kmh.
markz
100 TW
a g-note is slang for $1000
All I know about controllers is I have an Infineon one that Lyen built. Lyen.com.
Greentime is another controller, although I havent really seen a place that sells them. I think they are an ebay, alibibaba thing, aliexpress thing.
84V is 20S in Lipo, Check out HobbyKing.com, I use their Turnigy 4S 5Ah hardcases because they were really cheap.
Spark is from initial contact, yes.
I dont know why anyone would want a scooter style moped, you can go so many other places on an ebike. But what you have is what you have. So I understand your need to go 100km/h to keep up with traffic on the highway. So yes a low turn count, high Kv motor is what you need.
I dont know the different values of LifePO4, they might come in 84V, I dunno. Not my thing. As far as I remember, LifePO4 sellers only really sling em at 60V.
EM3EV.com
ebikes.ca
bmsbattery.com
bikessf.com
leafbike.com
Check out Headway batteries, Ping Batteries, Cell_man (ES) A123, ampedbikes.com
There are A123, Ping, Lipo, TS batteries....many flavours.
80km/h is ok, keep up on secondary highways for sure.
All I know about controllers is I have an Infineon one that Lyen built. Lyen.com.
Greentime is another controller, although I havent really seen a place that sells them. I think they are an ebay, alibibaba thing, aliexpress thing.
84V is 20S in Lipo, Check out HobbyKing.com, I use their Turnigy 4S 5Ah hardcases because they were really cheap.
Spark is from initial contact, yes.
I dont know why anyone would want a scooter style moped, you can go so many other places on an ebike. But what you have is what you have. So I understand your need to go 100km/h to keep up with traffic on the highway. So yes a low turn count, high Kv motor is what you need.
I dont know the different values of LifePO4, they might come in 84V, I dunno. Not my thing. As far as I remember, LifePO4 sellers only really sling em at 60V.
EM3EV.com
ebikes.ca
bmsbattery.com
bikessf.com
leafbike.com
Check out Headway batteries, Ping Batteries, Cell_man (ES) A123, ampedbikes.com
There are A123, Ping, Lipo, TS batteries....many flavours.
80km/h is ok, keep up on secondary highways for sure.
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