Battery design 48V 13s5p

ketof

1 mW
Joined
Oct 17, 2017
Messages
12
Hi all

I am going to build a 48V 13s5p = 65pcs which give a 13AH battery

I have attached a image of the design, but would like to know what you think about it, i need a 30A discharge.
So dos the Nickel strips have enough connections to support this design?

i am using 0.15mm *7mm 99.9% nickel

Please let me know if I should change the design from your experience.

Br Kevin
 

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30 amps is quite some juice
Maximize the number of series connections...
I think you di a good study of it.

You`re filling a Tiger shark battery box right...
I made my own drawing too, but wanted to cram 14S5P (70 cells) in that box, by removing the cell holders.

I tried to maximise the serial connections...
Here`s my scheme : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=88415&hilit=huge+battery+box&start=25#p1299168
 
You can expect to pass 4 amps in one of this strip...
So for 30A for a 5P config, that`s 6A per serial connection if you use 5 connction strips between each 5P groups to wire in series.
try to weld double thickness of that 7 x 0.15 mm PURE nickel strips:
As a more complete guide here the Matador Table :
Ampacity (Powestream extrapolation).jpg
 
Pics for your convenance :

Pack.jpgPack%20layout%20(800%20pxls).jpg

Notice that
Important thick (and multiple) SERIES connection are THICK COPPER INTERCONNECTS, while the
PARALLEL CONNECTIONS only need thin connections (which really only sees milliamps to equilibrate parallel cells that drain simultaniously and equally during dischare within the parallel group anyways).

Matador
 
#Matador, thank you for the reply!
thats a nice fit with the 70pcs in a tiger pack :), since this is my first battery i will stick with the normal fit, might trimm it a bit to get room for my BMS inside the pack.

Just to be sure i have understand it correctly, it is the controller that dictates what the constant discharge rate AH is correct?
I have attached a picture of my controller.

OK, so all Series connection you would double nickel?, i have calculated approx 5amp pr. cell pr serie connection.
but if it i more safe and will generate less heat to double, then i have no issues to do so.

the parallel connections should be fine from my design right?

something els that i should be worried about?

would it have any effect if the BMS is to powerfull, lets say that i had misunderstood something and i only needed a 20-25AH discharge, and the BMS is a max 30AH would that matter or is it just a MAX but can use less? Hope it make sense

Thanks Kevin
 

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So i god my Batteries and is now int the testing phase to make sure that everything is ok with the batteries.

Unfortunately it seems like there is a big spread in capacity of the batteries :(

So it states that the capacity is 2600mah pr cell, but in reallaty only about 1/3 is this or above.
1/2 is around 2200-2400mah
and the last part is around 1600-1900mah

So my question is, am i able to use the different capacitys if i keep them similar in each serie?
or do i need batteries that are all similar to create a good battery?

Br Kevin
 
Hi

I thought that i had the layout design correct, but i dont think so after i have done the first site of the battery 😔

So i want to ask i someone have a correct tiger shark battery layout desig, they want to share with me?

It is a 13p5s design i am looking fore

My originale design can be seen in the first post.
 
Hi all
Now i have tried 4 different designs but all ends with 1 pair being the same as on the other side which will create a shorting. Burned my finger doing that today :oops: that is how i figured that something where wrong in the layout i had created from the beginning.

Please see attached image to see what i mean when saying that i end up i a dead end with every design i do.

Am i missing something or why can i get the puzzle to add up?

Br Kevin
 

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Well what do you know... finally got it!!! :lol: 8)
just to bad i had to use 3M of nickel and a burned finger to learn, but i guess that is part of the process you learn from :roll:

to see final design see attached image of the layout
 

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Hello and thanks for sharing your layout.
I got the same battery case "tigershark" to make a 48v 13s5p battery, my problem is it doesn't have enough room for the bms.

Which bms did you buy for your battery and where or how did you manage to put it into this case ?
Could you post some pictures please ?

The one i bought is too big, it is bluetooth, one way could be not use the craddle and glue cells, or may i can mod the craddle, or make a 13s4p.
 
if you want to match 48V lead acid you need 14S. 13S is too low and it will cut out way too soon.
 
Hello, i'm using 65 cells Samsung INR18650-35E 3450mAh - 10A, not lead acid.
My controller is 48V 22A so i need a bms that can deliver at least 48V 25A.

I bought a 48V (54.6V) 30A with bluetooth, it is too big to put in my TigerShark battery Case with 65 Cells with cells holder.

Here my options :
- put 65 Cells and my BMS in the TigerShark case without the cells holder.
- put only 52 cells in the cells holder with little cuts and my BMS (but i already bought the 65 cells).
- put 65 cells in the cells holder in the TigerShark case with a smaller BMS (but i already bought the BMS).
- make a bigger case or mod my TigerShark case to put 65 cells in cells holder and my BMS.

The best option imo is the first one, not using the cells holder.
Which make something like this:

1529316228-bat-48v13s5p-2.jpg
 
you are not reading my post properly or i am not explaining it right.

all chinese controllers are set to lead acid voltages. if you want to match the voltage range of lead acid (what that controller is set to) you need 14S, not 13S.
having it on 13S will make it cut out way too soon. if you dont need the full range of the pack tou dont have to change it but if you can add 6 more cells to make it 14S you should get considerably more range and power.
 
Ok you are right i didn't read your post properly (i'm french, i don't speak english very well.)

So if i want to use the full range of my pack i need a 14s BMS ? And i got to re-organize to
easier = 14S4P (56 cells)
or
harder = 14S5P (70 cells)
Isn't there a risk for my controller's motor if i send 58.8V ?

The BMS i bought is a Chinese one, 48 V smart bluetooth BMS 30A for 54.6 V E-bike li-ion.
My controller for the motor is 48V 22A max with KT-LCD3.
Motor is 48V 500W (1000W max peak)

I try to know how many miles i will be able to do with my ebike, may i'm totaly wrong.

Maximum voltage for 1 cell is 4.2V and i won't go under 3V for discharge( i can set it on my BMS).

EDITED
If i go for 14S4P
4 x 3450 mAh = 13800 mAh
Max V : 14 x 4.2 = 58.8 V
Min V : 14 x 3 = 42 V
Max Wh : 58.8 x 13.800 = 811.44 Wh
Min Wh : 42 x 13.800 = 579.60 Wh
Usable Wh : 811.44 - 579.60 = 231.84 Wh

If i go for 13S5P
5 x 3450 mAh = 17250 mAh
Max V: 13 x 4.2 = 54.6 V
Min V : 13 x 3 = 39 V
Max Wh : 54.6 x 17.250 = 941.85 Wh
Min Wh : 39 x 17.250 = 672.75 Wh
Usable Wh : 941.85 - 672.75 = 269.10 Wh

and if i go for 14S5P
5 x 3450 mAh = 17250 mAh
Max V : 14 x 4.2 = 58.8 V
Min V : 14 x 3 = 42 V
Max Wh : 58.8 x 17.250 = 1014.3 Wh
Min Wh : 42 x 17.250 = 724.5 Wh
Usable Wh : 1014.3 - 724.5 = 289.80 Wh

For a 48V 500W motor, users report 17-20 Wh / miles
231.84 / 20 = 11.592 miles = 18.66 Km
269.10 / 20 = 13.455 miles = 21.66 Km
289.80 / 20 = 14.49 miles = 23.33 Km

There is only a few miles of difference between 13S5P and 14S5P

Or motor is rated 500W / 48V = 10.42A
i don't know the speed for bike, let's say 15 Miles/h for lower speed (13S) and 16 Miles/h for fastest speed (14S)
14S4P : 13.800 / 10.42 = 1.32H (faster) = 1 hour 19 minutes ## 1.32 x 16 = 21.12 miles = 34 Km
13S5P : 17.250 / 10.42 = 1.65H (Lower) = 1 hour 39 minutes ## 1.65 x 15 = 24.75 miles = 39.84 Km
14S5P : 17.250 / 10.42 = 1.65H (faster) = 1 hour 39 minutes ## 1.65 x 16 = 26.4 miles = 42.50 Km

I don't know how to calculate / estimate the capacity of my battery, i was thinking let's try and see, but now you said about 14S, i'm doubting.
I would like to run around 30 Km / 19 miles per day in pedal assistance mode.
 
ketof said:
So i god my Batteries and is now int the testing phase to make sure that everything is ok with the batteries.

Unfortunately it seems like there is a big spread in capacity of the batteries :(

So it states that the capacity is 2600mah pr cell, but in reallaty only about 1/3 is this or above.
1/2 is around 2200-2400mah
and the last part is around 1600-1900mah

So my question is, am i able to use the different capacitys if i keep them similar in each serie?
or do i need batteries that are all similar to create a good battery?

Br Kevin
I was checking too see what you came up with for design using this range of capacities. Has anyone offered a configuration for you in this case? I can say for certainty that you will want to balance the parallel groups for joining in series firstly. Whether the range of 1600 to 2400 mAh is too large for the individual parallel groups, I am not sure. Was hoping others could weigh in on tolerances and suggestions.
ALSO (for Waxx44> 4P is 13800 mAh not 10350 as you have shown- this will give much closer calcs as the 5P's. AND you are suggesting that by adding 1S you gain 5 mph where my experience is 4 volts added can expect more in range of 1.5 - 2mph max)
 
Thank you LobbieDove,

I correct the error, and change to 15mph for 13S and 16mph for 14S.
I do not think autonomy can be calculated as I did.

I'm looking for sites:
http://www.electricbikerange.info/Electric_bike_range.html
http://www.electricbikesimulator.com/calculator.php?language=en#
 
ketof said:
to see final design see attached image of the layout

Thanks for your design. I am using the same 65 cell Tigershark battery case for a 48v (13s5p) ebike battery.

I have added the series -/+ numbers using the free version of Canva to your image, to assist with my build. Attached below. and link to the Canva document located https://www.canva.com/design/DAFCs7nT2_E/9qy42omQrDurnf47mZj7UQ/view?utm_content=DAFCs7nT2_E&utm_campaign=designshare&utm_medium=link2&utm_source=sharebutton

I was also able to replicate the Tigershark 65 cell pack in the e4bike battery shape configurator
https://e4bike.ru/page/battery-shape-configurator?c=72100501305200200463201523269592275555387307358129328
 

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Update: if you are following the above design. Minus 13 (-13) should be -1, and +1 should be +13.

Luckily I have been testing each part of the way. Otherwise z I would have soldered all the balance wires incorrectly.

The above will then match BMS wiring diagrams. Once I finish my battery, I will update the design to help others.
 
Updated Canva Tigershark 65 cell design. The file is unlocked, to enable others to download and edit
https://www.canva.com/design/DAFCs7nT2_E/9qy42omQrDurnf47mZj7UQ/edit?utm_content=DAFCs7nT2_E&utm_campaign=designshare&utm_medium=link2&utm_source=sharebutton
 
Thankyou to the Endless Sphere community for your help as I have moved into ebikes over the past year,

I enjoy how it combines my enjoyment of technology and riding. And, enables people of various abilities of fitness and health to ride together. For example, my 70+ mum to started riding again when she got an ebike, and allows us to ride together on 40+km rides.

The idea of the new battery build came when I was seeking more torque up hills from my 36v battery. After some research I found my controller on the Kristall E5 250w could handle 48 volts. And, a decent capacity quality 48 volt battery for this bike would cost over $700AUD (Reention Tigershark case). This then started me on the battery build journey, and as we have about 15 of the Kristall ebikes in our immediate and extended family, re-building batteries was going to be needed in the future, and self building enabled me to choose features, cell quality and capacity.

This was my first battery.

The battery build:
Research:
Endless Sphere
Books:
- Micah Toll's 'DIY Lithium Batteries ' and 'Ultimate DIY Ebike Guide '.
- Design: see prior post.

Bill of Materials (links at bottom):
Bike: Kristall E5 with G51 LCD and controller built into Tigershark cradle. I have purchased a couple more Kristall ebikes, and the OEM advised they use Lvdong controllers.
Battery case [1056] : 65 cell Tigershark
BMS [1057] : BeMuchSafer 48V 13S30A BMS Separate Port 13S 30A.
18650 cells [1102]: Vapcell F34 3400mAh (3200 mAh tested capacity using Xtar VC8 Plus).
Nickel strip: same seller as 18650 batteries (tested 100% nickel after doing salt water scratch test).
Kapton tape: same seller as 18650 batteries
Various wire gauges for build: [1109] . For example from load to BMS, power and switch etc.
Connectors heat shrinkable: [1112] wanted to enable separating battery from case and bMS
Heat shrink: [1113]
Crimper [1115] : already had. It is the Prostormer 3 in 1 Wire Stripper
XT60 pre soldiered [1117]:
Soldering iron 80w [1119]:
Spot welder [1120]: Sunkko 737DH (240v version as in Australia). Same seller as cells.
Flux: LA-CO acid free.
Soldier lead free [1128]: 0.8mm
Antistatic ESD Soldering Mat [1122}
Soldering helping hands: already had
Heat gun [1135] : XU1 2000W heat gun
Glue gun [1136]: Ozito 30W 11mm Glue Gun Kit
Battery waterproof cover [1138]: for when using batteries on bike. Building the battery you can see where water could get in any of these (e.g charge port, USB port, switch etc, even with rubber cover, where battery halves come together etc)
Switch on/off [1140] : as melted first one soldering wires to switch, as didn't realise you can remove them to make it easier.
DC charge connector [1141]: same as above
48V 4A charger [1145] : same seller as Tigershark battery case
Waterproof tape: used to tape up around the two parts of the battery as additional water protection.
Magnifying glass with x10 magnification [1156] : to see the AWG on the BMS wires to purchase the correct wire guage.

Lessons:
Time: The build took some duration, due to things like melting the switch and DC jack.

Wire gauges: I found where possible keep wire gauges 16AWG or above to enable to use crimp connectors, even for switch.

Commercial battery cases don't have a lot of space: I wanted a bluetooth BMS to monitor charge, discharge and wattage. But, I wasn't able to locate one that would fit. Also, when you use connectors you have to carefully work out where to fit them. You can see why there is no movement in these types of battery cases.

Battery case parts availability: I used the Reention Tigershark battery case as I wanted to use the same battery mount on our Kristall ebikes, and to enable the battery to be used across our Kristall bikes as well as extended family (for longer rides we share batteries). But, if I was choosing a battery pack if I was starting a new build, I would choose another model (e.g. Reention Hailong). As, Hailong battery case parts are a lot easier to locate and cheaper (lots of sellers helps keep prices low) . Hailong enables you to use 18650 and and 21700 cells.

Connectors: love the heat shrink connectors to provide additional support/reduce wires pulling out. But, in the future I think I would reduce the number of connectors I used, and just soldier battery wire directly to the switch etc to remove issue of fitting connectors into the case.

Battery LED indicator PCB on case: I removed the LED indicator, as the wire was so thin (26AWG) and came away from soldier, and I couldn't fit a larger AWG due to the positive and negative soldier points so close together. So removed to minimise risk of sparking if the wires broke away from the soldier and sparked or worse: .

Battery spot soldier design: per my previous post, I would have designed the layout differently to fit the nickel strips between the battery plastic holder cut outs, and not at times having to go across them.

Battery cell purchasing: the other seller I am going to look at purchasing from is Batteryhookup who ship to Australia (link below). They are recommended by Micah Toll from Ebike School (for 5% discount use code 'ebike' )
https://batteryhookup.com/products/30-100-new-samsung-inr186...

Parts availability to enable longevity of use of bike:
When building or purchasing ebikes, check you can get parts, or are able to change out the part to another brand.

Example of the above, is the controller for the Kristall E5 Tigershark integrated battery mount that is installed in the location of the water bottle holder mount (controller is in the mount where battery fits on bike) is provided by Lvdong controllers, but Lvdong is difficult to locate parts for from my searching. But, as the battery , controller etc is not built into the bike/frame, I could change the LCD, controller, battery mount etc to another brand, and even buy a new wheel with hub motor. Where as some of the newer bikes have everything integrated into the frame, so you are generally stuck with that controller, battery case brand etc , so what happens when the company stops making those parts (e.g. brands such Reention with battery models that have the frame built around/integrated with the battery, tube batteries etc).

Photos and YouTube of parts of build:
- photos of build: https://photos.app.goo.gl/rCkpHC9xCCGrHXyr8
- Testing BMS switch is working: https://youtu.be/rbg_Ys2_hP4
- Kristall E5 ebike LCD/controller change from 36v to 48v : https://youtu.be/i-9bGoqTHJw
- Sunkko 737Dh spot welder overview and settings I used (Australia 240v): https://youtu.be/rA0saULaSIg

Thanks again to everyone who has shared their knowledge in this community, hopefully others find this post useful.


[1056] Battery case : https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32720266395.html?spm=a2g0o.order_detail.0.0.6b65f19c5meqyg
[1057] Controller: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003362901037.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.2f331802iySDrf
[1102] cells : https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Good-consistency-High-Capacity-Vapcell-F34_1600375345173.html?spm=a2700.9114905.0.0.YrYMfM
[1109] Wire seller: https://mucg.aliexpress.com/store/911945026?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.2f331802iySDrf
[1112] Connectors https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001698425142.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.2f331802iySDrf
[1113] heat shrink https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001393566382.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.2f331802iySDrf
[1115] Crimper https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32810871209.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.2f331802sZoJ6L
[1117] XT60 https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001860363771.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.2f331802sZoJ6L
[1119] Soldering iron https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002630432331.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.49491802MArM3K
[1128] Solder lead free: https://www.bunnings.com.au/craftright-15g-electrical-solder_p0237250?region_id=116215&gclid=Cj0KCQjwyt-ZBhCNARIsAKH11742dflSCgIeL8tGTmvQ1DAEdWhata97NhBz8drCTcFS6N1ZujQvfxcaAlI0EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
[1122]: Soldering mat: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004241859889.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.49491802MArM3K
[1135] Heat gun : https://www.bunnings.com.au/xu1-2000w-heat-gun_p6290580
[1136] Glue gun https://www.bunnings.com.au/ozito-30w-11mm-glue-gun-kit_p0098549
[1138] waterproof ebike battery bag https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003619377805.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.49491802MArM3K
[1140] on/off switch https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001332967504.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.49491802MArM3K
[1141] DC charge connector https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002915367593.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.49491802MArM3K
[1145] 48v charger https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32794346217.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.21ef1802DHY1vH
[1156] Magnifying glass https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000544359722.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.21ef1802DHY1vH
 
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