Lead acid anyone?

Archer321

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So I know lithium ion is the current hot stuff right now, but is anyone still running on lead-acid batteries? There have been several reported advancements that are supposed to be coming to market in the next two years. Lead/graphene-acid and bipolar lead-acid to name two.
Both of these developments claim to increase capacity while decreasing weight and improving charging time.
Lead has several advantages over lithium (energy density not being one of them) such as recyclability and a well established infrastructure.

All this being said, is anyone running anything interesting for lead-acid batteries?
I still run in the lead-acid class in my Electrathon races so I'm always interested in finding the best batteries I can.

The Victron Super-Cycle batteries look interesting...
but I haven't tried them yet.
 
Lead has zero advantages over lithium. The only reason why they are still around is legacy stuff like cars that run on dead liquid dino juice and car makers cant sell a car that requires a different battery type even if they really want to. That is why even a tesla still had a lead acid in the front of the car but a 2kW 12v inverter that actually powers everything from the 400v battery.

They can make claims all day but no magical marketing wank with fancy words is going to make SLA relevant compared to lipo
 
Archer321 said:
So I know lithium ion is the current hot stuff right now, but is anyone still running on lead-acid batteries? There have been several reported advancements that are supposed to be coming to market in the next two years. Lead/graphene-acid and bipolar lead-acid to name two.

I think you'd have to be bipolar and probably worse to think that's a good idea anymore.
 
flippy said:
Lead has zero advantages over lithium. The only reason why they are still around is legacy stuff like cars that run on dead liquid dino juice and car makers cant sell a car that requires a different battery type even if they really want to. That is why even a tesla still had a lead acid in the front of the car but a 2kW 12v inverter that actually powers everything from the 400v battery.

They can make claims all day but no magical marketing wank with fancy words is going to make SLA relevant compared to lipo

Lead won't go into thermal runaway fire like lithium, which can't be put out no matter what you do... :flame: :flame: :flame: Lithium is a bit over rated. Even though it's energy/weight is much better than lead-acid, it's still pathetic compared to gasoline and diesel, which is why dead liquid dino juice engines are still around.
 
armandd said:
flippy said:
Lead has zero advantages over lithium. The only reason why they are still around is legacy stuff like cars that run on dead liquid dino juice and car makers cant sell a car that requires a different battery type even if they really want to. That is why even a tesla still had a lead acid in the front of the car but a 2kW 12v inverter that actually powers everything from the 400v battery.

They can make claims all day but no magical marketing wank with fancy words is going to make SLA relevant compared to lipo

Lead won't go into thermal runaway fire like lithium, which can't be put out no matter what you do... :flame: :flame: :flame: Lithium is a bit over rated. Even though it's energy/weight is much better than lead-acid, it's still pathetic compared to gasoline and diesel, which is why dead liquid dino juice engines are still around.

SLA can explode as i have seen often, they also emit explosive gasses and cannot be shocked or orientated other then up.

There is no metric where SLA outpreforms lipo, including safety.
 
I love the strength of everyone's opinions...
Lol

Surely someone out there still runs lead batteries...
 
There are a couple of good reasons I still use lead-acid to start my cars. I am well-equipped to swap-in a LiFePO4 4S pack of high-current cells for starting the engine. And yet when one of them dies, I replace it with another lead-acid. I have heard of motorcyclists swapping-in super capacitors to save weight. If the caps bleed down from being parked too long, they charge them back up with a cordless drill pack through a resistor.

As far as ebikes go, Lead-Acids are still found on childrens ebikes (and slow 24V childrens cars). That is a situation where I can see me swapping-in a lithium pack after the original one wears out.

Their one benefit is that they have a lower purchase price for a pack that will fit. Even forgiving how heavy they are, a lithium pack the same size will have over twice the range.
 
Archer321 said:
I love the strength of everyone's opinions...
Lol

Surely someone out there still runs lead batteries...

Lithium being superior is not a opinion, its a fact.
 
flippy said:
Archer321 said:
I love the strength of everyone's opinions...
Lol

Surely someone out there still runs lead batteries...

Lithium being superior is not a opinion, its a fact.

Lol
That must be why lithium has been universally adopted into every aspect of industry and society and why there are no major manufacturers pursuing new lead acid technology...
Except that it hasn't and there are.

Let's take a second to notice that the name of this thread is NOT "Lithium vs Lead-acid"...
 
Lead acid is still widely used in applications like UPS power supplies, and of course car starting batteries.

I've seen various "new" types of lead chemistries come out, but none of them seem to be actually better. Modern AGM batteries with starved electrolyte and calcium plates seem to be the best out there now.

Here's one that's been out for a while. In practice, they don't seem to be any better:
http://www.siliconebatteries.ca/gs.html
 
flippy said:
Lead has zero advantages over lithium. The only reason why they are still around is legacy stuff like cars that run on dead liquid dino juice and car makers cant sell a car that requires a different battery type even if they really want to. That is why even a tesla still had a lead acid in the front of the car but a 2kW 12v inverter that actually powers everything from the 400v battery.

They can make claims all day but no magical marketing wank with fancy words is going to make SLA relevant compared to lipo

How about a burst of power in cold wether, like starting an engine in -20 degrees c?
 
For an engine starter battery, the 12V 4S LiFePO4 seems to be popular for small aircraft, since they are smaller and lighter than an equivalent-performing SLA. Be aware that this type of system is expensive. Small and light Lithium pack, high quality and reliability, with high-amps.

For cars (where weight and size are not a huge issue) a Flooded Lead Acid (liquid electrolyte) remains the most affordable choice. For cars in Canada, Northern EU, and Russia, swap-in a smaller lead acid and add super-capacitors. They have been doing this for over 40 years that I know of...

NCA and NCM do not play well when they are cold, unlike L/A combined super-caps. There is one chemistry that has been noted as performing well in extreme cold, called LTO, with 2.4V nominal per cell.
 
Yep, when you need a reliable 2400 cranking amps lead still has a place, and also as a large cruising sailboat pack where fire safety is critical and you need some ballast anyway. That a Northstar AGM... super pure lead, virtually zero self discharge, and sent in matching serial number lots for close performance matching. And they don't need to be used upright.

 
Archer321 said:
So I know lithium ion is the current hot stuff right now, but is anyone still running on lead-acid batteries?
No. My first ebike batteries were lead acid; they didn't last long.

Lead acid batteries can be a good choice if:
1) short term price is your only consideration
2) you need a lot of movable weight for ballast (i.e. boats, trikes) or weight doesn't matter (stationary applications)
3) you need very high pulse loads (although LiFePO4 gives them a run for their money)
4) you just got a lot of them for free
5) you have an application where your batteries have to stay at 100% charge all the time

But they are going away rapidly.
 
fechter said:
Lead acid is still widely used in applications like UPS power supplies, and of course car starting batteries.

I've seen various "new" types of lead chemistries come out, but none of them seem to be actually better. Modern AGM batteries with starved electrolyte and calcium plates seem to be the best out there now.

Here's one that's been out for a while. In practice, they don't seem to be any better:
http://www.siliconebatteries.ca/gs.html

they are used in UPS systems simply because it keeps them in buisness. its not about the UPS itself, its about selling maintenance contracts. and having batteries that last 10 years dont make no money because the entire UPS is out the door in less in then 5 before it is completly replaced. the batteries usually get replaced every year and often cost a fair percentage of the entire cost of the machine. basically the same shit they pull with printers. you get the printer almost for free but you are stuck with APC batteries that only they sell and cost a fuckton because its APC.

there is zero reason to still sue SLA in UPS systems, i already upgraded many systems with lipo just because they were sick of paying tens of thousands in replacing batteries every year because the stupid thing is constanly cooking them dry on purpose. (yes, this is on purpose by design of the UPS manufacturer)
in a few places i replaced 2 tons of SLA with 250kg of lipo just because the floor was starting to bend and crack under the weight of the SLA packs.
its not a technical thing, its a business thing. lipo is superior in every regard, just not for the wallet of the company that sells the UPS. the same goes for every other application where lead is still in use, that includes cars where replacing batteries is a source of profit for the stealerships. why else would a engeneerign team keep a 40kg hunk of lead taking up valuable space in the car when they can put a tiny 1~2kg lipo somewere in a corner that never needs to be replaced for the life of the car?

j bjork said:
How about a burst of power in cold wether, like starting an engine in -20 degrees c?
lipo and lifepo4 beats any SLA you can bring to the table. a dinky little 40Ah lifepo4 can hit far into the tripe digit amps even in those conditions and keep those going long after the SLA has died after a few seconds.
and bonus fact: there is enough power in them to run a heater pad to heat the battery up so it can deliver full power. good luck pulling 10A for an hour to heat the battery up and then have enough left in a SLA to crank you engine. a simple lifepo4 will wipe the floor with SLA in a direct matchup.
i tried my 60Ah thundersky with some old cars and i destroyed 3 starters trying to empty the battery. i managed to crank non-stop for 23 minutes only stopping to walk to the next car when the starter motor burned out. good luck trying that trick with a 60Ah SLA...
 
Once again, this thread was never intended to discuss the pros or cons of different battery chemistries. Clearly there are some very strong opinions on the topic and I'm sure a separate thread could be started to allow those so inclined to vent to their hearts content.

I still use lead-acid in my racecar because that is the class I run in.
As such, I am interested in any first hand information available as to what brand/type someone has found to be superior.

There are new lead-acid batteries on the horizon and truthfully I don't care why industry is choosing to stick with them but I am planning on checking them out when they become available.

I realize this is LARGELY an ebike forum therefore many on here will be only interested in lithium, but it is not EXCLUSIVELY so.
Let's keep in mind that not everyone drinks the same kool-aid.
 
SLA is probably a good choice for a wheelchair, or one of the mobility carts that sit in Walmart and other big stores. Safer for indoor charging, and for abuse.

Ditto for electric golf carts on golf courses. I've been to golf cart communities in Florida where gasoline powered carts are better, as you only get a 30 mile range with electric. Those seniors are driving all over the place.
 
Archer321 said:
I still use lead-acid in my racecar because that is the class I run in.

Ugh. What "racing" class is that?
1863498.jpg
 
What a scam this is
https:// ezbatteryreconditioning.com/video/ [link disabled by moderator; they've spammed ES before]
There was some guy spewing poo here on E.S. about that. What a total scam, a snake oil salesman.
Taking scaling/growing peaks off the plates to recondition them :lol:

Someone has the searching "Foo" to find those posts.
There was a guru, probably LiveForPhysics, setting the silliness straight.
I remember the talk about how over time peaks grow and eventually short the plates.

I found this, crystals, by Dogman Dan & Sunder
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=84208&p=1232840&hilit=reconditioning+battery#p1232583

Still on the hunt for the battery magician.

Sidenote on Wh/kg
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=57256&p=1171969&hilit=battery+crystaline#p1164452

Came close, learned a new search pro tip, I used Crystal* and it brought up Crystaline, Crystalyte etc. ProTip!
Good info on degredation
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=73677&p=1112328&hilit=crystal%2A#p1112328
 
NFPA-75 Chapter 6 prohibits the use of flammable materials in the construction of a data centre. You couldn't use a lithium UPS in a certified data centre (Unless it was LiFePo4 or LTO, I guess).

they are used in UPS systems simply because it keeps them in buisness.

I already upgraded many systems with lipo

Careful there. You wouldn't want UPS manufacturers to claim that you were trying to convert their safe UPSes to dangerous lithium, simply because it keeps YOU in business would you?
 
Anyone care to stay on topic?

I haven't kept tabs on the state of LA since the days of Hawker Genesis, but would be interested to know what's going on. It's also embarassing to see vendors of Li-ion and general axe-grinders getting on their soapboxes. Archer123 asked an honest and reasonable question.
 
Sunder said:
NFPA-75 Chapter 6 prohibits the use of flammable materials in the construction of a data centre. You couldn't use a lithium UPS in a certified data centre (Unless it was LiFePo4 or LTO, I guess).

they are used in UPS systems simply because it keeps them in buisness.

I already upgraded many systems with lipo

Careful there. You wouldn't want UPS manufacturers to claim that you were trying to convert their safe UPSes to dangerous lithium, simply because it keeps YOU in business would you?
SLA is also classified as dangerous goods in that regard. that is why UPS's are located in a different part of the building.
the smaller UPSs that are rackmounted are exempt from this due to their small size. its only after you get beyond a certain size you might run into problems. but in my country this is no problem and lipo/lifepo have far less regulations then SLA because they dont emit explosive gasses all day.
lipo/lifepo is acutally a lot simpler because you dont need expensive AF non-stop venting of the boil off gasses (those thend to explode) wich also helps safetly for people walking around or even if you have a car that has the battery under the seats for example, just take a average transit van, it needs ford specific batteries that have a connector for a vent line that goes out the bottom of the van just so people can sit in the compartiment that holds the SLA dont fill up with explosive gasses. this is also a worry for the source of this topic who hopefully has a LOT of ventilation around the SLA packs so you dont breahe in the gasses or possibly have a explosion from them.
 
flippy said:
SLA is also classified as dangerous goods in that regard. that is why UPS's are located in a different part of the building.

I've not seen that in either any international standards or in Australian data centres, but I don't claim to be an expert in world wide standards. Care to quote the standard your country uses?
 
Punx0r said:
Anyone care to stay on topic?

I haven't kept tabs on the state of LA since the days of Hawker Genesis, but would be interested to know what's going on. It's also embarassing to see vendors of Li-ion and general axe-grinders getting on their soapboxes. Archer123 asked an honest and reasonable question.

Yes, please...

I used Hawker Genesis batteries in several of my scooters and they were the best at the time. Hawker is now part of Enersys: https://www.enersys.com/Hawker_Batteries.aspx?langType=1033

Here is an article about various new lead acid systems:
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/new_lead_acid_systems

This is one of them:

Advanced Lead-carbon

Scientists have known for years that sulfate accumulation prevents the classic lead acid from delivering sustained performance; partial charge and aging are the main culprits because the negative lead plate is not sufficiently scrubbed. The advanced lead-carbon (ALC) solves this by adding carbon to the negative plate (cathode). This turns the battery into a quasi-asymmetric supercapacitor to improve charge and discharge performance.

Figure 1 illustrates the classic lead acid cell with the lead negative plate being replaced with a carbon electrode to benefit from the qualities of a supercapacitor.


advanced-lead-carbon.jpg
Figure 1: The classic lead acid develops into an advanced lead-carbon battery.
The negative plate is replaced with a carbon electrode that shares the qualities of a supercapacitor.
Courtesy of Advanced Lead-Acid Battery Consortium (ALABC)


The ALC is being tested as a replacement for the classic starter battery in start-stop applications and in 48V micro and mild hybrid systems. Rapid charging on regenerative breaking is a decisive advantage with these batteries, a task that is difficult to achieve with regular lead acid. Although larger and heavier than Li-ion, the ALC is low-cost, operates at subfreezing temperatures and does not need active cooling — advantages Li-ion cannot claim. Unlike regular lead acid, lead carbon can operate between 30 and 70 percent state-of-charge without fear of becoming sulfated. The ALC is said to outlive the regular lead acid battery, but the negative is a rapid voltage drop on discharge, resembling that of a supercapacitor.
 
It's my understanding that when flooded lead acid batteries are charging, a small amount of the water in the electrolyte Experiences electrolysis, and some hydrogen is released, which is the "flammable gas" that is of concern.

Other than hydrogen gas, and a possible acid burn to your eyes from a splash...are there any other safety concerns with "modern" lead-acid?
 
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