watt Voltage / CycleTruck??

Continued from: Best motor and Voltage for large Cycletruck?
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=99337


I have an ammo box measured 11” x 6 3/4” x 5 5/8th inch inside leaving plenty room for the BMS on the top. 120 cells could fit into the box 10 x 6 x 2 = this will leave room between the 18650 cells for forced air from a pair of one inch thick fans. But maybe forcing air over the cells is not actually needed. I maybe could fit 132 cells without fans that I maynot need any how.
I am using a 52volt battery but the 13.5Ah [14s 4p = 56 cells 704watt hours] is half of what I really need. My motor sucks up to around 1800 watts on reasonably hard acceleration then drops back to around 1400 watts.

All I really need is more amp-hours. My worst hauling job yet was using an average of 53Wh per mile for about 500 total combined pounds over about 6.44 miles at 10.8 mph average. I usually use between 40 and 46Wh per mile over 9.6 to 11 miles round trip. At an average of 10.7 to 11.8 mph. And I do not use my legs; I developed severe arthritis in my knees by pedaling this kind of weight [400 to 500lbs] without a motor for way too many years.

I charge my battery to 80% the night before my trip to town, then up to 90% just before I leave about [45 minutes]. The last 10% takes too long.

So how would this Cyclone3000 behave at a lower voltage verses a higher voltage?

Low voltage hill climbing would be slower, and make the motor hotter.
Drawing 1800 watts from the battery would give me faster RPM, but does higher voltage give less torque thrust?

A smaller capacity battery pack you are also reducing it's capability to supply current under high loads without a lot of voltage sag (and stressing the cells). As well as it being easier to accidentally hit the turn off voltage.

Now my brain is fried, and I still don't know if this is correct:
Using 3400mAh GA cells:
96 cells in 8 packs of 12 in series = 40.8 Ah? at 48v?? [12 x 4.2v= 50.4v]
120 cells in 10 packs of 12 in series= 48.96 Ah 48volts? [12 x 4.2= 50.4v] would this give me the same average speeds of 11mph?
112 cells in 8 packs of 14 in series = 27.2Ah 52volts nominal. [14x 4.2v=58.8v]
112 cells in 7 packs of 16 in series = 23.8 Ah 60v nominal? [16 x 4.2v = 67.2v]
114 cells in 6 packs of 19 in series = 20.4 Ah 72v nominal? [19 x4.2=79.8v] ? or:
120 cells in 6 packs of 20 in series = 20.4Ah 72v? [20 x4.2v = 84v] but would 20Ah be enough at that voltage?

Check this out. I have not use them but like the buss bars. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=92223
I would go 52v for middrive cyclone. What controller 40amp ? You have a C.A. ?

yes to all three of these:

• I would go 52v for middrive cyclone.

• What controller 40amp ?

• You have a C.A. ?

I was starting to read this thread https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=99861#p1462045 and suddenly realized that I maybe using the same amps or the same Watt-hours per mile at any voltage.

Justin told me:
"For a given torque and speed you'll need the same phase current through the motor regardless of whether or not you have a low voltage or a high voltage pack. The high voltage battery would have the potential to climb a hill at higher speeds if it is not phase current limited by the controller.

If you want to make a given PM motor spin faster, you can either run it at a higher voltage, or keep the voltage the same and use a faster motor winding with fewer turns. The former approach will have your input electrical power at a higher voltage and lower current, while the latter would be at a lower voltage and higher current, but the total power (volts * amps) would be the same, as would the motor efficiency, heating, etc. However, the motor controller and external wiring can get hotter with the fast wind at lower voltage and higher current, unless you appropriately increase the wire gauge and mosfet resistance.

It takes power to climb hills, regardless of whether that is at a low voltage and high current or a high voltage and low current.

Battery amps has little to do with the amps actually flowing through a motor which is your phase current, and it's the phase amps responsible for controller heating and the motor heating. A lot of people fail to recognize this.

The motor controller is just a step down DC-DC converter, it can take a higher voltage battery and step that down to a lower voltage that is presented to the motor, and increase the current by the same proportion. So the controller can take 48V and 10A from your battery, and convert that into 24V at 20A flowing through the motor. That's exactly what a motor controller does, half throttle means that the motor is seeing only half the voltage of the battery, but in this state the amps flowing through the motor is double the current that you would see on the Cycle Analyst or other ammeter."

So now I am thinking about how fast the power can be released from each cell [c-rate]. Are the GA cells good for my application? Or should I think about the faster release cells? I do get some voltage sag, but I do not know what is acceptable.

ok what does this comparison tell me? looks like the thrust is the same. so if I want more thrust torque I need to use a lower gear...




But how would it compare to a slower wound motor? looks like that is the way to get more torque thrust....but not much, and it drops off faster.





now I gotta go back and read this one
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=98803

999zip999 said:

Check this out. I have not use them but like the buss bars. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=92223
I would go 52v for middrive cyclone. What controller 40amp ? You have a C.A. ?

Click to expand...

Too bad I can't find these holders on the web/net.

are you fixed to the ammo box? or are youwilling to run dual boxes or a single bigger box?

please dont use the GA cells, their cycle life is utter shit when loaded down and used up to capacity.
you are much better off using smaller cells with much more cycle life and more of them to get the capacity you need. this also massibly increases the power you can draw from the pack and reults in less heating.
if you size the pack up proper you dont need any cooling.
right now you cant do much better then the panasonic PF or samsung 29E. they are are the current sweet spot between price per Wh and lifepspan.

Excellent, I will use the smaller cells
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=62787

and a different box, but it still needs to fit into my large front end box. Maybe I should not even use a box. if I could get some one to print me a holder:

flippy said:

are you fixed to the ammo box? or are youwilling to run dual boxes or a single bigger box?

please dont use the GA cells, their cycle life is utter shit when loaded down and used up to capacity.
you are much better off using smaller cells with much more cycle life and more of them to get the capacity you need. this also massibly increases the power you can draw from the pack and reults in less heating.
if you size the pack up proper you dont need any cooling.
right now you cant do much better then the panasonic PF or samsung 29E. they are are the current sweet spot between price per Wh and lifepspan.

Click to expand...

I am still having trouble understanding “C” Rate. How would I design a battery for a high discharge C rate? [What does “C” mean? Cryptic or Current?]

I have a 40amp controller and have drawn as much as 43 amps, for very short period when accelerating. But it is rated at 30amp continuous. [Lucky I am not a hot-roder.] My CycleAnalyst tells me that I use an average max of 10-12mph at up to 53Wh per-mile.

It is easy to convert mAh to Ah by counting three digits to the left to place the decimal.


These Samsung INR18650-29E cells are 1C continuous max 3C Max short bursts.
So do I have to figure the C rate by packs in parallel?

And I assume the Amp hour total does not tell the C rate. But it does it affect the C rate?

"The 29E cell is 2C rated and we recommend a Max of closer to 1.5C" so how many cells do I need in parallel?

And how important is it to fuse each cell?

Cyclones are duck sick and require too many modifications for reliability even at standard power level. I would recommend a more reputable mid drive like BBSHD. It is nominally less powerful (depending on the setup) but very much able to fulfill your mission, just pick a gear.

C rate is the one hour discharge current. If your cells are 3000mAh, then 1C would be 3000mA (=3A). If you have cells in parallel, multiply the rate by the number of parallel cells.

So for example if the pack is made from cells with 3000mAh cells (sorry I don't know what Samsung INR18650-29E are rated at), and the pack is made with 5 parallel, then 1C would be 15A and 3C would be 45A.

I also agree a BBSHD with the right gearing would be hard to beat. Maybe not the most powerful, but very reliable and quiet.

What modifacations do you recomend, I have made a few. I am stuck with the cyclone3000, and it is working fairly well, but if I can make it better....I will....

I am thinking about the Cyclone mini for my next cycletruck about this size, does it have even more problems?

flat tire said:

Cyclones are duck sick and require too many modifications for reliability even at standard power level. I would recommend a more reputable mid drive like BBSHD. It is nominally less powerful (depending on the setup) but very much able to fulfill your mission, just pick a gear.

Click to expand...

Just make another 52 volt battery and run in parallel

sounds good
but if I use different cells.....it won't be the same.

I am looking at the samsung 29E but there is two different kinds?
Samsung INR18650-29E 18650 2900mAh Flat Top 10A 3.7v Lithium Battery and
SAMSUNG 29E 18650 2.75A FLAT TOP 2850MAH BATTERY -
Maybe the discription is wrong on one of them?? Also I better ask when they are manufactured. At 200 cells they are only $3@

From what I have read so far, it looks like I should build the pack as large as I can so there won't be as much stress on it. Is that correct? or do the cells degrade even if not used to their max ??

999zip999 said:

Just make another 52 volt battery and run in parallel

Click to expand...

reality check needed; please help....

I'm really forcing my brain beyond what it was made for here. So I doubt that any of this is correct.

The pack I have is 14s x 4p [56 GA cells] equals 704Wh and the shortest route home from the food-bank is steep. So I am sure that I am stressing the cells....and having to recharge in town is a bugger.

The pack I want to build will still need to be 14s[in series] x 14p[in parallel] for a 52v nominal @40.6Ah,196Cells.....

Or for a 60volt pack; 16 in series? X 4.2v@ = 67.2v? ….and at 12p would be 34Ah nominal? 552C? [192 cells] with 8 left over for my lights.

I found this data on another forum about the Samsung 29E, but I don't know what to do with it: “Nominal Voltage: 3.65V (0.2C discharge)”...should I add it up? 14s x .2 = 2.8c?
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...Ah-(Blue)&s=5f656b190d4d53860ac4abef292dddbb

And if 2.9Ah x 14p = 40.6 x 15a? [is this the amps needed? 30A x 40.6 = 1218a I'm lost] = 609 is that the “c” rate [amp-hour output?] What c rate do I need? maybe 60? for a 30amp continuous/40a highs and 50a peak controller? At 2c the battery can output only half of the 1c right?

0.2 x (2.9Ah x 3.7v) = 2.146 watts [1600watts continuous [hill climbing] /what? I'm lost, too much caffeine.]

relax. ignore the little numbers, they dont matter in getting the numbers you need.

first lets get some base numbers.
what is the maximum voltage your controller can handle? i assume you have a programmable controller.
if you dont have one are you willing to get one?

what is the maximum amount of cells you can actually fit in a box (without cooling) and how many boxes can you fit on your bike?
can do ditch the boxes and make a single battery that can hold more cells in the same space, if so: how many cells can you fit?

from the supplied data already given i calculate you need 2+kWh to be on the safe side.
that is 200 cells of 2.9Ah each. but for your load i would add a bit more to prevent the battery from heating too much as your peak draw is almost 2kW. with 200 cells that puts it near 3.5A per cell. well within their rating but they will get hot.
during normal cruise its around 2A wich is fine but the peak loads will creep in the heat more and more.

This is a good one about the C rate, maybe I can understand it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUzx21K4468&t=16s

I finally understand the reason to buy a programmable controller
My controller for my Cyclone3000 is set to cut off too high:
30% of 58.8v = 17.64v but my controller cuts off at about 39v which is 66.326% of 58.8v
yet 39v is 30.7% of 78.8v



I can fit a little over 200 cells in by compartment... and a programable controller will cost me over $100. so I did a little test last saturday to see what I really need. 97.368Wh about 6 minutes but it felt more like 10 minutes so I should try next sat, same hill.

Two of these 4x5 across x 2... and the same of the 3x5 will hold 70cells x 3 cells high with plastic spacers = under 10”x 10” x 7” totaling 210 cells; will fit into my front battery compartment [w/controller and excess wires]. 208 x 2.9Ah [16s x 13p = 208 cells] = 2262Wh @ 60v? And if that ain't enough C rate, there just ain't anything to do about it, unless I can really squeeze in another row = 80 cells x 3 = 240 x 2.9= [16s x 14p= 224 cells] = 40.6Ah x 60v = 2436Wh.....now I need more brain sugar. But I may need to settle for 12p = 34.8 Ah = 2088Wh................

operating current IB = C/N......total capacity/3 minutes = 25c? Sounds like gibberish to me.

Samsung INR1865029E 18650 2850mah Specifications:
Manufacturer's Rated Continuous Discharging Current: 2.75A
Manufacturer's Rated Discharge Current (Not Continuous): 8.25A
Manufacturer's Rated Typical Capacity: 2850 mAh
So at 40 amps I need at least 14 cells in parallel [224 cells for 60 volts] I may as well just build the biggest battery pack I can. At least I won't need to charge it twice every time I go to town and it will last longer, right?
2100w/ 60v=35a continuous....or 2100w/52v=40a continuous, but can my motor handle 40a continuous?

maximum Watt-hours for 15.5 mile round trip:

683.5 Wh [so I need at least twice this to keep from stressing the pack] 3x would be better.

Hill climbing 160ft elivation test

70.377 Watts
212.3Wh/Mi
3.3minutes
.581 miles
1.375 Ah
36.59max amps

1. My controller is not programmable and a new programmable controller for my Cyclone3000 will cost $100! What are the reasons to use a programmable controller?
2. My motor will handle up through 72v nominal. [more voltage equals more Watt~hours! and More RPM per Ah~ But no increase in thrust]
3. And why not use a slightly higher capacity battery? Lower discharge rate? Steeper price-increase curve?
4. 14p x 2.9a= 40.6a [maximum output?] output for each parallel pack at 60volts nominal = 224 cells = 2403.52Wh at 3.7volts each cell.
5. 16s x 14p x 10.73Wh per cell = 2403.52 Wh [at 3.7v]
6. Calculate “Ah”: Volts ÷ Watt-hours = Amp-hours [2403.52Wh {divide by} 60v = 40 Ah Amp-hour pack]
7. My battery compartment is a tight 11 inches wide by 7 inches by 10 inches tall = 224 cells. I think the holders are less than one square inch per cell. So there will be room to breathe.
8. But how do I calculate using a larger capacity cell with different “C” rate? And what other cells compare to this Samsung 29E?

I am convinced that a high voltage of 72v with lower gears [more gear reduction] will deliver more kinetic thrust and at a cooler temperature, than 52volts, even at the same amperage. I do not think in terms of speed, just kinetic energy.
40Ah [40Ah x 60v = 2400 Wh pack] battery with a .75C rating [I don't know how to think about C rating],
52v [1800w/52v=34.6a], 40Ah x 52v = 2080Wh pack
60v [1800w/60v=30a] 40Ah x 60v = 2400Wh pack
72v [1800w/72v=25a] 40Ah x 72v =2880Wh pack
247cells/19s=13p [2.75Ah minimum capacity of the Samsung 29E cells]

But I just cannot wrap my mind around the math. Could some one write a formula? 70 years of cholesteral needs a good scubing.


Cycle life
25R: Capacity after 250cycles, Capacity ≥ 1,800mAh (60% of the nominal capacity at 25℃)
30Q: Capacity after 250cycles, Capacity ≥ 1,800mAh (60% of the nominal capacity at 25℃)
29E: Capacity after 500cycles. Capacity ≥ 1,925mAh (70% of Rated Capacity) But how much more is that?