real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

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raylo32   10 kW

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real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by raylo32 » Jul 08 2021 6:42am

I am sure Tesla will manage keep a faithful base of customers like Apple but for most of the rest of us the car companies will produce better products at more reasonable prices.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/07/success/ ... index.html

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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by spinningmagnets » Jul 08 2021 7:07am

Ferrari has survived, and yet they do not make a truck, SUV, or minivan.

I think Tesla will survive. Toyota is presenting their solid-state-battery soon, so range will no longer be an issue for most buyers.

I think this competition will have good results.

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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by raylo32 » Jul 08 2021 7:29am

Agree. Range, especially for local driving, will soon be a non-issue. The only problem for EVs is developing enough charging infrastructure for travel to prevent the issues that the linked article touched on. Well, that and developing enough charging infrastructure for multi-family building situations. It is going to be difficult and take some time to get enough of that to support national fleets of mostly EVs. But certainly exciting times for EV development.

And just as an aside... One of my biggest issues with Teslas is that they just don't seem like cars. You get a steering wheel, some pedals and... a tablet. Much better and less distracting for drivers to incorporate more hard switches and controls like the real car companies are doing. IMO.

But Ferrari are going to be making an SUV!

https://www.caranddriver.com/ferrari/purosangue
spinningmagnets wrote:
Jul 08 2021 7:07am
Ferrari has survived, and yet they do not make a truck, SUV, or minivan.

I think Tesla will survive. Toyota is presenting their solid-state-battery soon, so range will no longer be an issue for most buyers.

I think this competition will have good results.

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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by speedmd » Jul 08 2021 7:32am

When I see most of the ice car companies making 100% hybrid or pure EV lines, it may start to set some real pressure on them. For now they are mostly just milking out the current product configurations while half heatedly doing the required r&d on the EV side. Much cheaper and easier to just follow the trends with baby steps.

Interesting move Toyota made on the new van line going to 100% hybrids with smaller 4 cylinder ice motor. Sadly, no modern battery in them yet. They could make a statement with their truck line, but not without risk. At the moment the political climate for them is changing and has some risk on its own.

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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by Hillhater » Jul 08 2021 7:44am

All the major manufacturers know they cannot commit to a full EV model range until battery technology gives much better energy density,.. for improved range,.
.and much lower price,...to be acceptable to the mass consumers.
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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by stan.distortion » Jul 08 2021 7:49am

Tesla never stood a chance, major manufacturers where quite happy to sit back and do their R&D while Tesla carved out a new market for them and now that market is on the brink of booming they'll wipe the floor with Tesla. They where never a serious threat, there was no way they could even come close to the economy of scale enjoyed by companies like GM or VAG. A red herring right from the start IMO, state sponsored to force other manufacturers to compete while the US controlled resources needed to build EVs where the real target. 5th most valuable company in the world is a joke, fully expecting "Tesla to buy GM" at some stage when in truth it's GM buying Tesla and funnelling a big chunk of its market valuation into their coffers.
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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by raylo32 » Jul 08 2021 8:57am

I mostly agree... but don't underestimate misplaced fanboy customer loyalty. It'll take a long time... and a lot more charging infrastructure... for the big boys to pull this back, and Tesla may well survive as a so-called "high end" brand. We'll see.
stan.distortion wrote:
Jul 08 2021 7:49am
Tesla never stood a chance, major manufacturers where quite happy to sit back and do their R&D while Tesla carved out a new market for them and now that market is on the brink of booming they'll wipe the floor with Tesla. They where never a serious threat, there was no way they could even come close to the economy of scale enjoyed by companies like GM or VAG. A red herring right from the start IMO, state sponsored to force other manufacturers to compete while the US controlled resources needed to build EVs where the real target. 5th most valuable company in the world is a joke, fully expecting "Tesla to buy GM" at some stage when in truth it's GM buying Tesla and funnelling a big chunk of its market valuation into their coffers.

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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by spinningmagnets » Jul 08 2021 11:23am

I think its good that all the major car companies have given in and are committed to having their own in-house EV's.

The new Tesla 4680-format cell is definitely a next gen product, and I'm sure the car companies will have limited EV production due to battery supply issues. Tesla makes their own cells.

I am a huge fan of hybrids, along with pure EV's. I was quite disappointed when GM discontinued the Volt. My son has one and its pretty awesome. Honda makes a hybrid called the Clarity, and I hope it gains traction with customers.

I drove a Lexus hybrid SUV for a weekend, and I liked everything about it.

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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by nicobie » Jul 08 2021 1:58pm

I agree that hybrids are the way to go for the near future until the battery and charging infrastructure problems are solved.

When GM announced that they were discounting the Volt, I sold my 4 year old one and bought an identical new one so I would be covered for the next 6 years or so. For my wife and I they are almost the perfect transportation solution.
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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by raylo32 » Jul 08 2021 2:11pm

I agree with both of you that hybrids offer the best near term solution. Good range, fast refueling, etc. I even said that to a co-worker about 20 years ago. But the oil industry and politics have conspired to make fuel cheaper than it would otherwise be so all the great tech has been priced out and suppressed.... except for niche players like Tesla who can charge a lot for their exclusivity. At some point the proverbial switch will be flipped and we may be in an expensive energy bind due to the slow pace of change and the precarious place the powerful fossil fuels lobbies have put us in. I am skeptical that these big auto makers really mean it when they say they agree to the EV targets and am likewise skeptical that they will meet them.

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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by neptronix » Jul 08 2021 3:25pm

Tesla has built a sizeable manufacturing base for their cars, reputation for having the best electric cars of all, and technology portfolio, etc. Big automakers are just finally catching up, 13 years later..

This is a VERY good situation for Tesla to be in when facing competition from companies that can do things on larger scales.

Imagine being a company just trying to get started in this new race..
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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by pwd » Jul 08 2021 7:15pm

I'm excited to see what Toyota does when they enter the full EV arena. They are simply waiting for better battery (or other) tech and then they will swoop in when it makes financial sense to.
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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by raylo32 » Jul 09 2021 6:00am

Big auto companies haven't tried to "catch up" with Tesla but that doesn't mean their R&D depts aren't preparing for the future. Most, except the luxe brands, can't charge enough for them to be profitable in the EV arena yet. But they will be ready when the time comes.
neptronix wrote:
Jul 08 2021 3:25pm
Tesla has built a sizeable manufacturing base for their cars, reputation for having the best electric cars of all, and technology portfolio, etc. Big automakers are just finally catching up, 13 years later..

This is a VERY good situation for Tesla to be in when facing competition from companies that can do things on larger scales.

Imagine being a company just trying to get started in this new race..

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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh » Jul 10 2021 5:46pm

so does this mean that jack-"the"-rickard wuz wrong, again?
I have no interest in tracking the money or reading the chicken entrails. I already know how this comes out. The irony is double. It looks like the oil companies and automakers have no possibility of losing this one. In reality, they have no way to win it. One man has them totally surrounded, outnumbered, and outgunned.

Elon Musk.

Bite it bitch.
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the industry puckered it's collective sphincter after they saw ford take serious the threat to their moneymaker with elon's cybrtruk.

i think it's roger smith quoted as saying "gm will never introduce new technology unless forced to by the competition".
we'll see if their corporate mission statement of dedication to mediocrity proves a winner.

but hey, my money is on nissan taking it all.
they were electric before electric wuz cool (according to nissan).
which is a safe thing to say since an electric car has never been cool.
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spinningmagnets wrote:
Jul 08 2021 11:23am
I am a huge fan of hybrids, along with pure EV's.
i'm unable to locate it but in 2007ish? on EVDL bill dube weighed in on the hybrid debate saying (from memory) "a hybrid car is like having one foot on the boat & one on the dock."
took me a looong time to appreciate what he meant by that.
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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by ZeroEm » Jul 10 2021 8:40pm

It's all good, in the last year the EV ads on TV has sky rocketed and gas prices are on the rise. Love my 2013 Leaf. Think they will shoot for 500 miles between charges. I would only need to charge up once a month at home.
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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by liveforphysics » Jul 11 2021 10:28pm

I realize depending on a person's living location they may or may not see many Teslas on the road around them.

Here in SoCal though, it's Teslas in all directions.

I see the remaining ICE automakers in a mad scramble to try to catch Tesla, but I don't see it happening. They have internal frictional losses from the ICE expert leadership that is reluctant to become a relic, even if it means running the companies into the ground as Tesla each quarter keeps eating whatever remaining sales volume the ICE companies have. After Tesla pick-up ships, it's going to be a grim day for the remaining ICE players, but a fantastic day for all living beings sharing our spaceship.
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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by JackFlorey » Jul 12 2021 12:03am

raylo32 wrote:
Jul 08 2021 6:42am
real car companies are finally coming for Tesla
Good! More competition = more choices and lower prices. Tesla will have the advantage of being the first to market for another 5-10 years, but after that they will have to have a product that's as good as or better than anything else out there to succeed.

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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by JackFlorey » Jul 12 2021 12:05am

pwd wrote:
Jul 08 2021 7:15pm
I'm excited to see what Toyota does when they enter the full EV arena. They are simply waiting for better battery (or other) tech and then they will swoop in when it makes financial sense to.
Perhaps. But Tesla is able to make good EV's with the batteries that exist today - and that is going to give them an advantage over a car company that doesn't have the skill to do that.

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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by Hillhater » Jul 12 2021 12:27am

Most EV makers ..including Tesla... are still not producing the cars that will win the sales wars. An affordable Car for the average and bottom half of the market
Unfortunately the ones that are closest are the Eastern producers..China, Korea, Japan etc.
The big manufacturers are still working with a high margin financial model.....not very well though apparently !
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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by spinningmagnets » Jul 12 2021 7:05am

Tesla never stood a chance, major manufacturers where quite happy to sit back and do their R&D while Tesla carved out a new market for them and now that market is on the brink of booming they'll wipe the floor with Tesla
Ford has shut down at least two of their assembly lines due to the inability to get enough computer chips. Its my understanding that Tesla has their own chip facility.

And again, Tesla makes its own batteries. Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler buy their batteries from outside vendors. Any EV they make that is popular will be a "limited edition"...

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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by speedmd » Jul 12 2021 8:04am

OP topic should lighten up a bit on tesla. Anyone making nice cars is a real car company. The "major" car companies have too many internal conflicts of interest to seriously endeavor into this and not negatively impact their current product mix and hurt their bottom line. They all have the talent to make things economically and mechanically robust, but lack the focus we are seeing from tesla to vertically integrate and develop products that continue to set benchmarks in performance, luxury, at suitable reliability and longevity in the EV arena.

Henry Ford understood this needed integration. So did Soichiro Honda. Nether are near the companies they were when they passed. Just look at GM's killing of two great EV's due to bean counting. Now Ford is pushing out 3-4 ton monster brick shaped pickups with "fuel efficient" aluminum beds. LMAO! Not to mention going to proprietary hardware and HAND TOOLs to keep the shade tree folks from doing their own work. Bet they spend more effort on that then they do on EV R&D the past decade. Even the "Detroit Press" ie; Car & Driver, had to admit the three tesla models in the review easily won the on road test they put them through. I am no way a tesla cheerleader and not a musk fan, but he is at least focused on making some seriously nice stuff and not going to let folks box him out of the needed resources to accomplish his mission. Majors coming for him will only make them all better. IMO he will fail only if he goes for gimmicks over reliability.

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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by ZeroEm » Jul 12 2021 8:30am

I don't believe the car companies, they canceled the chip orders then all of them ordered at the same time.

They have been closing factories before the chip shortage. Like the gas line got hacked before holidays to raise gas prices. I forget why are gas prices still high? I'm glad, hope gas goes up to $7.

EV market is still very young if people figure out the savings it will gain traction.
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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by raylo32 » Jul 12 2021 12:43pm

Yeah, the chip shortage is nuts. I have a friend who works at a Honda dealer and she says they are selling cars with only 1 key... and promising the other one to the buyer at a date TBD.

spinningmagnets wrote:
Jul 12 2021 7:05am
Tesla never stood a chance, major manufacturers where quite happy to sit back and do their R&D while Tesla carved out a new market for them and now that market is on the brink of booming they'll wipe the floor with Tesla
Ford has shut down at least two of their assembly lines due to the inability to get enough computer chips. Its my understanding that Tesla has their own chip facility.

And again, Tesla makes its own batteries. Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler buy their batteries from outside vendors. Any EV they make that is popular will be a "limited edition"...

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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by Hillhater » Jul 12 2021 6:24pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Jul 12 2021 8:30am

EV market is still very young if people figure out the savings it will gain traction.
I suspect most average motorists have figured out the “savings”....and realised it is not a convincing factor !
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Re: real car companies are finally coming for Tesla

Post by Hillhater » Jul 12 2021 7:13pm

spinningmagnets wrote:
Jul 12 2021 7:05am
....... Its my understanding that Tesla has their own chip facility.
No way Tesla, (or any company),..would make all the electronic “chips” and components for their own use.
Even vertical integration has it limits !
..and you only need a shortage of one minor component to halt a production line. ,!
On September 20, 2017, CNBC reported that Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA) is working with Advanced Micro Devices (NASDAQ:AMD) to develop its own artificial intelligence chip for self-driving cars. As well, the report mentioned that Tesla intends to build on top of AMD’s intellectual property. However, within four hours of publication, a correction comment was added. .......
........ Nvidia is supplying a Drive PX 2 platform rather than a single graphics card to Tesla for their autonomous cars.....
Tesla is also still “buying in” major quantities of battery cells from Samsung, LG, as well as offshore Panasonic production facilities, and the Chinese CATL LFP cells.
To some extent they have compromised their manufacturing efficiency by increasing the range of cells in their products ..
Not just 18650, 21700, and 4680 formats, but also multiple chemistrys for different products.
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