Cyclone 3kW ===> 5kW????

bakaneko

100 W
Joined
Oct 25, 2018
Messages
203
Hi. I like my bike; its a Cyclone 3kW with an embedded 400W gas generator (800W capable). It does 40 mph on lowest gear on flat surface and aggressive tuck. But, it has limitations due to the batteries ~1700W max continuous. I was thinking about a 6kW LR Big Block motor but that will require an entirely new bike frame to fit it basically losing all the work I did to make a hybrid.

Therefore, does anyone know if I can get a controller that will be compatible with the Cyclone 3kW to pump it up to 5kW? Will this fry the motor? I've ask SBP and they will check with Cyclone but just seeing if anyone in the community has done this. I see on the Cyclone site that they might have a motor (higher RPM and watt, lower torque) I just hope it can fit in the current Cyclone mount. I wonder if better batteries that can actually produce 3kW will propel me to 40-50 cruise and 55-60 top or is the RPM the limiter here?
 
If by 5kw you mean 72v 60a, the stock cyclone bluetooth controller can do that after a shunt mod. 72v*70a=5040w. 70a peak is OK for this motor.
If you have less voltage, you would need to compensate with amps 80 or above. The motor would get very hot very fast. It is a no in that case. The cyclone 3000w is about 2kw cont and 5kw (70a) peak, the cyclone 4000w is about 2.4kw cont and 7kw(100a) peak.
 
I think this is their website. I wonder if the mount that we have for the Cyclone 3kW can be used with the variety of BLDC motors that they have for sale. I am looking specifically at the 6kW one that has 3500rpm (vs 800rpm that we have) but with 30Nm torque (vs 50Nm that we have). The higher RPM would probably mean that I wont even have to shift and I am a light rider well with 100lb bike. And, it is just $289 for just the motor.

* Max speed 4000Rpm
* Rated speed 3500Rpm
* Rated output 6000W
* Max output 7500W
* Rated Torque 30Nm
* Max Torque 50Nm
* Rated Amp 100A
* Insulation class E class
* Driver: External Driver
* Control method PWM
*Ambient temperature -15C~40C *Efficiency: 85%
* weight 9Kg

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/motor.html
 
I have a pile of dead cyclone 3k. 70 amps may be optimistic even with a shunt mod, but the real issue is the Cyclone 3K motor itself can't even take 3K watts for any serious length of time let alone 5k, unless you live in the arctic.

I've replaced the Cyclones with the CYC X1 Pro. It's a more powerful smaller lighter motor with potted windings high temp magnets and .2 lams. Way higher quality, no comparison. The single downside is the Cyclone is quieter due to the plastic gears.
 
flat tire said:
I have a pile of dead cyclone 3k. 70 amps may be optimistic even with a shunt mod, but the real issue is the Cyclone 3K motor itself can't even take 3K watts for any serious length of time let alone 5k, unless you live in the arctic.

I've replaced the Cyclones with the CYC X1 Pro. It's a more powerful smaller lighter motor with potted windings high temp magnets and .2 lams. Way higher quality, no comparison. The single downside is the Cyclone is quieter due to the plastic gears.

Exactly it is a 2kw cont motor, if that, maybe 1.8kw.
The cyc is more in line with the cyclone 4kw.
 
bakaneko said:
I think this is their website. I wonder if the mount that we have for the Cyclone 3kW can be used with the variety of BLDC motors that they have for sale. I am looking specifically at the 6kW one that has 3500rpm (vs 800rpm that we have) but with 30Nm torque (vs 50Nm that we have). The higher RPM would probably mean that I wont even have to shift and I am a light rider well with 100lb bike. And, it is just $289 for just the motor.

* Max speed 4000Rpm
* Rated speed 3500Rpm
* Rated output 6000W
* Max output 7500W
* Rated Torque 30Nm
* Max Torque 50Nm
* Rated Amp 100A
* Insulation class E class
* Driver: External Driver
* Control method PWM
*Ambient temperature -15C~40C *Efficiency: 85%
* weight 9Kg

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/motor.html

Just out of curiosity, why are you looking at 6kw motors that can peak 12kw+ when your battery is limited to 1700w? Have you calculated how big, heavy and expensive pack you will need to take advantage of that thing?
 
Tommm said:
Just out of curiosity, why are you looking at 6kw motors that can peak 12kw+ when your battery is limited to 1700w? Have you calculated how big, heavy and expensive pack you will need to take advantage of that thing?

Yeah, I am going to buy a new battery capable of supporting this peak and continuous power. Note, I do not need 12kW but if its there... I want to try the YinLong 2.3V 40aH LTO batteries; this seems to be fit on top of my top tube and I just need to move the gas tank to the rear rack. The LTO batteries is max discharge is rated at 10C so 72V*40aH*10=28.8kW :shock:

Originally, I was going to do a new bike with the LR Big Block but I think it be cheaper and easier if I can fit a stronger motor where the Cyclone 3kW and then just buy the batteries. Fitting a quick charger capable of 1-2kW might not be possible as that thing has gotta be huge.

With the Cyclone upgrade, its a little cheaper though many of the components on my current bike will need to be upgraded for the higher speeds.
 
bakaneko said:
Tommm said:
Just out of curiosity, why are you looking at 6kw motors that can peak 12kw+ when your battery is limited to 1700w? Have you calculated how big, heavy and expensive pack you will need to take advantage of that thing?

Yeah, I am going to buy a new battery capable of supporting this peak and continuous power. Note, I do not need 12kW but if its there... I want to try the YinLong 2.3V 40aH LTO batteries; this seems to be fit on top of my top tube and I just need to move the gas tank to the rear rack. The LTO batteries is max discharge is rated at 10C so 72V*40aH*10=28.8kW :shock:

Originally, I was going to do a new bike with the LR Big Block but I think it be cheaper and easier if I can fit a stronger motor where the Cyclone 3kW and then just buy the batteries. Fitting a quick charger capable of 1-2kW might not be possible as that thing has gotta be huge.

With the Cyclone upgrade, its a little cheaper though many of the components on my current bike will need to be upgraded for the higher speeds.
If you want to upgrade and keep it simple, you can just upgrade to the cyclone 4kw. It is the same thing but with a 30% wider motor core and steel gearbox. You will need a new mount but it is avaliable.
 
Had an email exchange with Cyclone about the requirements (65kmh cruise, 100kmh top) and my limitations small BB and they said to upgrade my internal gears to steel and get a 80A controller. Will this really take me to 65/100kmh? might get a hub...
 
bakaneko said:
Had an email exchange with Cyclone about the requirements (65kmh cruise, 100kmh top) and my limitations small BB and they said to upgrade my internal gears to steel and get a 80A controller. Will this really take me to 65/100kmh? might get a hub...

65 cruise 100 top is exactly what I get on the 4kw motor with a 80a yuyang king controller (same manufacturer as the 60a cyclone one). I think you would have to temper your expectations if you stayed with the 3kw, also the 4 kw comes with steel gears by default.
 
Okay, thanks. I mean its a $170+40=$210-230 upgrade without shipping less the battery of course to get to 60-65kmh cruise. I mean the other way is like $700-1000 for a new hub motor capable of producing those speeds.

I am a bit concerned though because I went on a high speed run and the motor was pretty warm/hot after like 38-40mph top. If that is cruise then the motor is gonna burn...? I did get a head nod from some guy on a sports bike as I tried to out accelerate them LOL. Maybe I make heat fins for the motor?
 
Hub motor is a LOT better for high power high speed builds like that. Effortless torque always. No messing with shift or slop in the drivetrain. For 60 MPH, QS205 v3 is a good choice.

The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
 
bakaneko said:
Okay, thanks. I mean its a $170+40=$210-230 upgrade without shipping less the battery of course to get to 60-65kmh cruise. I mean the other way is like $700-1000 for a new hub motor capable of producing those speeds.

I am a bit concerned though because I went on a high speed run and the motor was pretty warm/hot after like 38-40mph top. If that is cruise then the motor is gonna burn...? I did get a head nod from some guy on a sports bike as I tried to out accelerate them LOL. Maybe I make heat fins for the motor?

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32885788772.html
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/33012982559.html

Depending on your budget you have these options
1, Buy gears from Paco (~$40 shipped), shunt controller to 70-75a.
2, Buy 4kw motor with only the differential mounting parts (~$280-320 shipped), shunt controller.
3, Buy 4kw motor and yyk 80a controller from ali(~$90), shunt it to ~100a. (~$400 total).


I would personally skip it and just buy the metal gears, the heat sinks, an lcd temp sensor and shunt the controller.

The reliability of your drivetrain will depend on your gearing and set up geatly.
 
I would suggest potting motor windings with heat conducting polyurethane and buying Nucular 12F controller.
Cyclone 3K @ 60A and 55-60 km/h cont. for 20-25 km in city without motor getting hot. 80A bat / 170A ph when needed.
 
minimum said:
I would suggest potting motor windings with heat conducting polyurethane and buying Nucular 12F controller.
Cyclone 3K @ 60A and 55-60 km/h cont. for 20-25 km in city without motor getting hot. 80A bat / 170A ph when needed.

Do you have a guide how to do that? Google just shows ads for companies.
 
THX for replies. Yeah, that is the other thing is the wheel and drive train. Its is already dodgy now at 40 mph max speed but at 55-60. LUL :flame: :warn: :flame: :warn: :flame:

Might just got with a 5kW+ pro threaded and trued hub/wheel that way I will at least be confident in the wheel.

But, this discussion does help me get off of the fact that I need an entirely new bike and lose my hybrid setup. ERT said his LR Big Block is much more efficient than his duo hub 20kW+ setup and you can see the same in his videos at the same high speeds (40-50mph); the mid drive does use significantly less power to hit those speeds and maintain. I mean I would like to be efficient but as you say if my drive train is literally designed for 20mph and I try to do 60. It is only a matter of time before a catastrophic failure happens and you read about me in the news. :roll:
 
bakaneko said:
THX for replies. Yeah, that is the other thing is the wheel and drive train. Its is already dodgy now at 40 mph max speed but at 55-60. LUL :flame: :warn: :flame: :warn: :flame:

Might just got with a 5kW+ pro threaded and trued hub/wheel that way I will at least be confident in the wheel.

But, this discussion does help me get off of the fact that I need an entirely new bike and lose my hybrid setup. ERT said his LR Big Block is much more efficient than his duo hub 20kW+ setup and you can see the same in his videos at the same high speeds (40-50mph); the mid drive does use significantly less power to hit those speeds and maintain. I mean I would like to be efficient but as you say if my drive train is literally designed for 20mph and I try to do 60. It is only a matter of time before a catastrophic failure happens and you read about me in the news. :roll:

In your place I would put the whole thing on a scooter frame, one with plenty of under and behind seat storage. There is just no place to put all your gear on a bike, let alone a full suspension one.
 
Tommm said:
Do you have a guide how to do that? Google just shows ads for companies.

Get potting polyurethane from electronics component store. I got mine from farnell. Just make sure it's heat conducting one.
Heat conducting epoxies have better transfer properties but personally I am not sure it is good to use because different heat expansion properties of different materials involved. Polyurethane remans somewhat soft even cured as epoxy is hard as rock.
I used 250ml on c3k, I think. Mix in 3 parts. 1st to sort of to seal windings, as in it's liquid state, stuff will seep through windings to bottom. Once 1st is almost cured, pour second. Bottom side once top is cured.
You need only suitable diameter tube to fill rotor space and maybe some silicone sealant to keep leakage to minimum.
Oh, and polyurethane when cured is cuttable with knife to fix any that leaked trough.
 
minimum said:
Get potting polyurethane from electronics component store. I got mine from farnell. Just make sure it's heat conducting one.
Heat conducting epoxies have better transfer properties but personally I am not sure it is good to use because different heat expansion properties of different materials involved. Polyurethane remans somewhat soft even cured as epoxy is hard as rock.
I used 250ml on c3k, I think. Mix in 3 parts. 1st to sort of to seal windings, as in it's liquid state, stuff will seep through windings to bottom. Once 1st is almost cured, pour second. Bottom side once top is cured.
You need only suitable diameter tube to fill rotor space and maybe some silicone sealant to keep leakage to minimum.
Oh, and polyurethane when cured is cuttable with knife to fix any that leaked trough.

How much of a difference did it make?
 
Unfortunately no measurements. But similar rides without potting meant motor was too hot to keep hand on it, which is >60C. No such problem after potting, even after a hard ride.
Right now I cant attach thermal image of motor after average commute from work, will do later.
 
minimum said:
Unfortunately no measurements. But similar rides without potting meant motor was too hot to keep hand on it, which is >60C. No such problem after potting, even after a hard ride.
Right now I cant attach thermal image of motor after average commute from work, will do later.

So to visualize it, you remove both halves(gearbox, side cover) of the motor shell and keep only the motor housing metal ring around the stator? Then you put a 80mm pipe through it and bathe it in the potting?

Can you take the stator out of the shell? I have some triangle screws in mine on the stator. Though taking it out would ruin the heat transfer to the motor wall if it dries that way.
 
Tommm said:
So to visualize it, you remove both halves(gearbox, side cover) of the motor shell and keep only the motor housing metal ring around the stator? Then you put a 80mm pipe through it and bathe it in the potting?
Yes but no bathing but pour from top (2 times, 1st only a little), then later when cured, turn around and pour again. Hence mix/pour in 3 parts.
I did not even try to separate stator from shell but I slightly/carefully sanded down paint underneath windings turns, inside shell to improve contact between potting compound and motor shell.
 
How bad idea to use thermal paste at the motor windings then seal with neutral silicone sealant on the 2 sides? 🤔
 
What would be the point (unless it's thermally conductive silicone)?
The idea of casting lower viscosity than gel/paste is to get good bonding between materials in order to effectively transfer heat from winding to outer case. Both, good bonding and good thermal conductivity are important in this application. Compromise at least one and the effect might be averse to initial.
 
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