Poor throttle response with CA3

Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
16
I am running at 72v 65A, with a MXUS 3Kw hub motor and an 18 FET Lyen 18 FET 4110 Mark II controller. All control is via the CA3 which has the latest firmware installed. However I cannot get the throttle to start giving an output until I have turned it approximately 25% round. Also at the top end I reach 99% Output 25% before the end of the throttle movement. The throttle is outputting pretty much as soon as you start to turn it (0.85V)however I only start to get a "ThrO Min"(1%) at 0.89v. At the top end I am getting ThoO Max (99%) at 4.24V however the throttle continues up to 4.26v. I am currently set in"Pass-through mode" However the same happens in "Power Mode" also. I have tried lots of different values for ThrI /ThrO min -max and no matter what values I put in, it has no effect on these dead zones. Any Ideas?
 
Trawleysteve said:
However I cannot get the throttle to start giving an output until I have turned it approximately 25% round. Also at the top end I reach 99% Output 25% before the end of the throttle movement. The throttle is outputting pretty much as soon as you start to turn it (0.85V)however I only start to get a "ThrO Min"(1%) at 0.89v. At the top end I am getting ThoO Max (99%) at 4.24V however the throttle continues up to 4.26v. I am currently set in"Pass-through mode" However the same happens in "Power Mode" also. I have tried lots of different values for ThrI /ThrO min -max and no matter what values I put in, it has no effect on these dead zones. Any Ideas?
You don't mention which throttle you're using. Many of them physically don't provide any change in output from the minimum 0.8ish volts they *always* output when powered on, until they are rotated quite a ways from "off". Similarly, they only change voltage up to their max for part of the rotation, and hte rest of the rotation they dont' increase voltage any further. This will cause essentially what you describe.


Did this system ever work without this problem? If so, when did it start; what exactly was changed?

If it's always had this problem, then: first, try Bypass mode and see if it still happens. If it does, the problem is in the controller itself, in it's response to throttle output range. Bypass mode just directly sends the exact throttle in to the throttle out, no modifications and no processing or limiting. If this is the problem, then you need to find out what the throttle input range of the controller itself is setup for, and use that for your throttle output range in the CA.

If that's not the problem, and the controller responds normally to the throttle without dead zones, then there is a procedure to fix this type of problem in Teklektik's Unofficial User Guide, linked near the beginning of the CA v3 beta thread, and on the CA v3 info page on ebikes.ca. It may also be in the official manual nowadays, I haven't checked.

If you've already done this, then you may have some other setting interacting with this, like minimum speed, or PAS, power or current limits, etc. (all of which are ignored in Bypass mode) If you wish to verify those aren't an issue, then if you have the USB cable and the setup program, you can save your current setup to the PC, then reset the CA via the setup program to defaults. At that point you can then try the full setup procedure from the top, starting with the wheel size, shunt, etc and working your way to the throttle setup.

Once that's done, before setting any limiting or anything else, test the throttle response. If it still has a problem, then you know one of the settings you have just setup is the source, and it's not in any menu you didn't change things in, and can more easily track it down.

If it doesn't have a probelm, save the setup as it is now, and hten continue setting other things back to the way you want them, retesting at *each stage* to see if the problem comes back. If it does, you know where it is, and can fix it, as an interaction between that setting and the throttle response.
 
amberwolf. Thank you for your concise reply. I have answered most of your questions and point in brackets

You don't mention which throttle you're using.

(Wuxing 20X as sold by Grin)

Many of them physically don't provide any change in output from the minimum 0.8ish volts they *always* output when powered on, until they are rotated quite a ways from "off". Similarly, they only change voltage up to their max for part of the rotation, and the rest of the rotation they don't' increase voltage any further. This will cause essentially what you describe.

(I am getting a voltage change from pretty much the start of throttle rotation in a consistent manner, right up to the end of rotation (0.85v-4.26v.) But as mentioned I'm only getting Throttle out from 0.89v (1%) to 4.24v (99%).This gives me a problem when riding, as I am riding slow technical mountain sections that require quick small power changes and this lag makes me overpower at times due to the initial zero power at the start of rotation!)


Did this system ever work without this problem? If so, when did it start; what exactly was changed?

(No it has always had this problem. I also had the same problem when I was running a lower powered Lyen 12 FET Controller and a CA2! I was hoping with the adjustment available with the CA3, I would be able to dial this lag out. But whatever values I put in it has no impact!)

If it's always had this problem, then: first, try Bypass mode and see if it still happens. If it does, the problem is in the controller itself, in it's response to throttle output range. Bypass mode just directly sends the exact throttle in to the throttle out, no modifications and no processing or limiting. If this is the problem, then you need to find out what the throttle input range of the controller itself is set up for, and use that for your throttle output range in the CA.

(I tried it in Bypass and it made no difference. Are the Lyen controllers not as compatible as I thought they were with the CA3? )

If that's not the problem, and the controller responds normally to the throttle without dead zones, then there is a procedure to fix this type of problem in Teklektik's Unofficial User Guide, linked near the beginning of the CA v3 beta thread, and on the CA v3 info page on ebikes.ca. It may also be in the official manual nowadays, I haven't checked.

(Have read them both many times)

If you've already done this, then you may have some other setting interacting with this, like minimum speed, or PAS, power or current limits, etc. (all of which are ignored in Bypass mode) If you wish to verify those aren't an issue, then if you have the USB cable and the setup program, you can save your current setup to the PC, then reset the CA via the setup program to defaults. At that point you can then try the full setup procedure from the top, starting with the wheel size, shunt, etc and working your way to the throttle setup.

(Minimum start speed 0 mph, PAS off, Power, current limits all good and did a default set up two weeks ago to try and fix it)

Once that's done, before setting any limiting or anything else, test the throttle response. If it still has a problem, then you know one of the settings you have just setup is the source, and it's not in any menu you didn't change things in, and can more easily track it down.

If it doesn't have a problem, save the setup as it is now, and then continue setting other things back to the way you want them, retesting at *each stage* to see if the problem comes back. If it does, you know where it is, and can fix it, as an interaction between that setting and the throttle response.
 
I couldn't get the throttle to run right when running it through the CA3, not many people can

I ran it directly to the controller on my infineon and modded the throttle min/max range mechanically with resistors and it's perfect
 
Trawleysteve said:
(I am getting a voltage change from pretty much the start of throttle rotation in a consistent manner, right up to the end of rotation (0.85v-4.26v.) But as mentioned I'm only getting Throttle out from 0.89v (1%) to 4.24v (99%).
Can you post your exact Throttle In and Throttle Out settings on the CA? As well as anything throttle-related printed on the controller label?

I'm sure I'm misunderstanding what you are seeing, but it doesn't sound anything like 25% at top and bottom is missing, from the numbers presented above. Knowing the settings and controller info will help in figuring this out.


(No it has always had this problem. I also had the same problem when I was running a lower powered Lyen 12 FET Controller and a CA2! I was hoping with the adjustment available with the CA3, I would be able to dial this lag out. But whatever values I put in it has no impact!)
<snip>
(I tried it in Bypass and it made no difference.

Then that means the problem has to be in the controller; if it doesn't respond to the full throttle range, but the throttle does output changing voltage thru it's whole movement range. That's not all that uncommon. Some controllers have their throttle voltage response range printed on them, which helps with setting up the CA3 to fix it.

One further thing you can do to verify with certainty that is indeed the controller is to connect throttle direct to CA without the CA connected to the ocntroller or throttle at all. (disconnect both the 6pin CADP connector and the 3pin throttle connector, and connect the throttle directly to the controller's throttle input connector).


If it is that, then using the CA3's Throttle in and throttle out ranges will fix a mismatch of throttle voltage output range to controller voltage input range. Teklektik's UUG procedure works to do this; essentially finding out what the controller's actual response range is, then using that as the throttle out, then setting your throttle in to the actual throttle output range, so the CA then translates the one into the other. I do this with the powered wheel offground so I can easily see any controller response.


But it won't change the behavior of a controller if it doesn't respond as desired for any reason, like if it has a ramp up or down on throttle response, or a delay, or some other non-1:1 response. I don't know if your controllers have that, but a number of generic controllers (which is what the Lyens are built from just with better parts) that I've used over the years have had one or more of those behaviors. Others have had direct 1:1 response with no ramping/delay/lag.



Are the Lyen controllers not as compatible as I thought they were with the CA3? )
*everything* is compatible with the CA3, once the right settings are found. But not every controller has the features or behavior a system requires, so desired behavor may not be possible with some of them in some systems, with or without a CA of any version.



The below is some options if your controller or throttle simply can't be made to provide you the behavior you require.

This gives me a problem when riding, as I am riding slow technical mountain sections that require quick small power changes and this lag makes me overpower at times due to the initial zero power at the start of rotation!)
A couple of things that can be done if you cannot get the system you have to provide the response you want, even with the translation by the CA3.

If the throttle really does provide voltage change across it's entire motion range as you need it to, then the throttle doesn't need to be replaced. But if it has any physical gaps in motion range vs voltage change range, a different throttle could be used. For instance, a cable operated throttle can be used, and then the cable adjusted to provide voltage change from the very start. (won't change the top end, but that could be adjusted by limiting the throttle motion range itself so it can't move past the point at which voltage change stops). Then the CA can be used to match the COT output range to the controller input range.

IF the cotnroller itself simply doesn't respond as needed, especially at low power levels, like if it surges, that's common with typical "PWM" or "Speed" based controllers, that respond to throttle input by changing the average voltage to the motor, basically controlling it's speed, but the feedback mechanisms take time to respond, especially at lower power and lower speeds. Another kind of controller responds by modulating the current, or torque, to the motor, which generally gives more control at lower power and speeds. FOC controllers generally work like this; some other controllers may as well. They're often programmable to respond to exactly the voltage range your throttle creates.
 
Thank you again for your reply amberwolf.

I tried to screen print my setting but no joy. So here they are long hand;

THROTTLE IN SETTINGS

Input Power Mode; Power
Zero Throttle Threshold; 0.86v
Full Throttle Threshold; 4.26v
Fault Throttle Threshold; 4.5v
Throttle Auto Cruise; Off
Cruise Hold Range; 0.15

THROTTLE OUT SETTINGS

Output Mode; Voltage
Min Throttle Output; 1.00v
Max Throttle Output;3.65v
Ramp down Rate; 4.00v/sec

Min Start Up Speed; 0.00 mph


To be honest no matter what values I put in to ThrI min and max. And ThrO-min ThrO-max there is absolutely no change in this dead zone at the start and end although I am getting 1%-99% in the mid zone.I am totally baffled. I was going to change the throttle but I don't believe there is anything wrong with it, just grasping at straws!

I contacted Edward Lyen as there was no information on the controller as to the throttle input range. He quoted 1v-4v ish.

I have not directly connected the throttle to the controller yet, as I will have to make up a jumper cable as they are different connections. However on my previous installation of a 12 FET Lyen controller with a CA2. the Throttle was connected directly to the controller and I had exactly the same issue!

Any ideas?
 
Suggestions for settings to use are below. If this is already how they're set, leave them at that.
Trawleysteve said:
Input Power Mode; Power
Change this to "pass thru", so that power response limiting doesnt' come into play, to make it less confusing, but so that voltage conversions still work. Once it's workng like you want, you can change it back.

Zero Throttle Threshold; 0.86v
Set this to 0.1v above the actual zero throttle voltage. This ensures you don't get accidental operation of the throttle from noise on the ground, etc.

Full Throttle Threshold; 4.26v
Set this to 0.1v below the actual full throttle voltage. This ensures you always get operation all the way up, even if actual throttle output voltage doesn't always go as high.

Fault Throttle Threshold; 4.5v
Set this to at least 0.1-0.2v above the maximum possible throttle, but below the supply voltage to the throttle. 4.5v is usually good. It's just so that if the ground wire on the throttle input breaks, or a short to full voltage of the throttle supply voltage, you don't end up with full throttle output.

THROTTLE OUT SETTINGS
Output Mode; Voltage
Min Throttle Output; 1.00v
Set this at or just above the actual required throttle in voltage of the controller, so that the wheel is never trying to be powered except when you actually use the throttle.

If you do not know what this is, you must experimentally determine it. Set the bike up so the powered wheel is off ground, and stable so that it can't fall over or otherwise touch the wheel to anything while spinning.

Experiment with this value until the wheel just begins spinning. Lower it until it stops. Then move the throttle and it should instantly start moving the wheel with even a touch of throttle. If this doesnt' happen, the controller has a built in delay or ramp you can't do anything about in the CA.


Max Throttle Output;3.65v
If you have your spedometer on the powered wheel, then experiment with this value until the wheel spins at it's max speed while at max throttle. If moving the throttle further increases the throttle in / out voltage but doesn't increase speed, then you can decrease the throttle out voltage until it matches the max speed of the motor.


Ramp down Rate; 4.00v/sec
I usually set all the ramp rates to 99.99v/sec, so there essentially no ramping. Otherwise it will take as long as you set it to to reach whatever voltage. IN your case, at 4v/second it will take one secont to change by 4 volts. So it will take about half a second or more to go from your minimum throttle to your maximum throttle.


To be honest no matter what values I put in to ThrI min and max. And ThrO-min ThrO-max there is absolutely no change in this dead zone at the start and end although I am getting 1%-99% in the mid zone.I am totally baffled. I was going to change the throttle but I don't believe there is anything wrong with it, just grasping at straws!

I contacted Edward Lyen as there was no information on the controller as to the throttle input range. He quoted 1v-4v ish.

I have not directly connected the throttle to the controller yet, as I will have to make up a jumper cable as they are different connections. However on my previous installation of a 12 FET Lyen controller with a CA2. the Throttle was connected directly to the controller and I had exactly the same issue!

The problem described is that your controller is not responding instantly to the actual throttle voltage range. The CA voltage ranges *will* fix this, *if* you know what the controller input range is, you simply match taht with the CA throttle output range, and there is no built in delay in hte controller.

If it still doesnt' work, then the controller itself has delays or ramping in it that prevent it's instant response to your input, even if the voltage range exactly matches. If the controller is programmable for this particular thing to reduce that delay to zero, you can fix it. If it is not, you need a new controller that does not have any delay.
 
Suggestions for settings to use are below. If this is already how they're set, leave them at that.
Trawleysteve wrote: ↑Jul 08 2020 6:37pm
Input Power Mode; Power
Change this to "pass thru", so that power response limiting doesnt' come into play, to make it less confusing, but so that voltage conversions still work. Once it's workng like you want, you can change it back.
Zero Throttle Threshold; 0.86v
Set this to 0.1v above the actual zero throttle voltage. This ensures you don't get accidental operation of the throttle from noise on the ground, etc.
Full Throttle Threshold; 4.26v
Set this to 0.1v below the actual full throttle voltage. This ensures you always get operation all the way up, even if actual throttle output voltage doesn't always go as high.
Fault Throttle Threshold; 4.5v
Set this to at least 0.1-0.2v above the maximum possible throttle, but below the supply voltage to the throttle. 4.5v is usually good. It's just so that if the ground wire on the throttle input breaks, or a short to full voltage of the throttle supply voltage, you don't end up with full throttle output.
(DID ALL THAT NO IMPROVEMENT)
THROTTLE OUT SETTINGS
Output Mode; Voltage
Min Throttle Output; 1.00v
Set this at or just above the actual required throttle in voltage of the controller, so that the wheel is never trying to be powered except when you actually use the throttle.

If you do not know what this is, you must experimentally determine it. Set the bike up so the powered wheel is off ground, and stable so that it can't fall over or otherwise touch the wheel to anything while spinning.
(DID THIS TEST AND REQUIRED 1.43V (17% OUTPUT)JUST BEFORE THE WHEEL STARTED TO MOVE. NO REDUCTION IN DEAD ZONE)

Experiment with this value until the wheel just begins spinning. Lower it until it stops. Then move the throttle and it should instantly start moving the wheel with even a touch of throttle. If this doesnt' happen, the controller has a built in delay or ramp you can't do anything about in the CA.

Max Throttle Output;3.65v
If you have your spedometer on the powered wheel, then experiment with this value until the wheel spins at it's max speed while at max throttle. If moving the throttle further increases the throttle in / out voltage but doesn't increase speed, then you can decrease the throttle out voltage until it matches the max speed of the motor.
(CHECKED THIS AND 3.68V IS THE THROTTLE OUTPUT AT MAX SPEED BUT ONLY SHOWING 88%)

Ramp down Rate; 4.00v/sec
I usually set all the ramp rates to 99.99v/sec, so there essentially no ramping. Otherwise it will take as long as you set it to to reach whatever voltage. IN your case, at 4v/second it will take one secont to change by 4 volts. So it will take about half a second or more to go from your minimum throttle to your maximum throttle.
(DONE)

To be honest no matter what values I put in to ThrI min and max. And ThrO-min ThrO-max there is absolutely no change in this dead zone at the start and end although I am getting 1%-99% in the mid zone.I am totally baffled. I was going to change the throttle but I don't believe there is anything wrong with it, just grasping at straws!

I contacted Edward Lyen as there was no information on the controller as to the throttle input range. He quoted 1v-4v ish.

I have not directly connected the throttle to the controller yet, as I will have to make up a jumper cable as they are different connections. However on my previous installation of a 12 FET Lyen controller with a CA2. the Throttle was connected directly to the controller and I had exactly the same issue!
The problem described is that your controller is not responding instantly to the actual throttle voltage range. The CA voltage ranges *will* fix this, *if* you know what the controller input range is, you simply match that with the CA throttle output range, and there is no built in delay in the controller.

If it still doesnt' work, then the controller itself has delays or ramping in it that prevent it's instant response to your input, even if the voltage range exactly matches. If the controller is programmable for this particular thing to reduce that delay to zero, you can fix it. If it is not, you need a new controller that does not have any delay.
(EVEN WHEN I OPEN THE THROTTLE VERY SLOWLY THERE IS NO OUTPUT UNTIL IT REACHED 0.89V NO MATTER WHAT VALUES I PUT IN. I EMAILED EDWARD LYEN ABOUT THE CONTROLLER AND HE THINKS I SHOULD CONTACT GRIM TECHNICAL!)
 
Trawleysteve said:
(DID THIS TEST AND REQUIRED 1.43V (17% OUTPUT)JUST BEFORE THE WHEEL STARTED TO MOVE. NO REDUCTION IN DEAD ZONE)
Then you'd use 1.43v on the Throttle out minimum. That will translate the lower throttle in voltage to this, inside the CA.


(CHECKED THIS AND 3.68V IS THE THROTTLE OUTPUT AT MAX SPEED BUT ONLY SHOWING 88%)
Then set the throttle out max to this, 3.68v. That will trnaslate the higher (or lower) actual throttle in voltage to this, isnide the CA.

These two things will then remove the dead zone of the controller, *unless* it has a built in delay. The CA can't do anything about that, only if the ocntroller itself is programmable, or if you replace it with one that has no delay.

Also, if you have set other things like the throttle in values so that they don't respond immediately, you have to chagne those so it will.

Or if the throttle itself doesn't respond thru it's entire motion range (I've never had one that does, except cable-operated ones that can be adjusted). You'd have to replace it with one that responds immediately, or physically modify it so that it doesn't move outside of it's usable range.

(EVEN WHEN I OPEN THE THROTTLE VERY SLOWLY THERE IS NO OUTPUT UNTIL IT REACHED 0.89V NO MATTER WHAT VALUES I PUT IN.
As noted before, if the throttle does not change in voltage output until you reach a certain position, then that is part of your problem. You cannot fix that except by either replacing the throttle with one that responds to it's full range (I've never had one, other than cable-operated where it can be adjusted), or mechanically modifying the throttle so it can't move outside of it's responsive physical range.

If the throttle is changing voltage output from it's totally off bottom of movement range point, but you have the CA's input set to not respond until a certain voltage, then that's exactly what will happen--it won't respond until the thorttle input voltage reaches taht point.


AFAICT, you have three totally separate things, with a possible fourth, each of which is causing part of your problem.

First, the controller itself has a specific voltage range that it responds to throttle input. You have now experimentaly determined that is 1,43v minimum to 3,68v maximum.

Second, the throttle itself has a specific voltage range that it outputs. You've experimentally determined that is 0.85v at it's lowest voltage, when "off", and is 4.26v at it's highest voltage.

Third, the throttle has some "mechanical slack" at it's top and bottom portions of the movement range, where voltage doesnt' change. It may be very small, but there is *some* of this.

Fourth (potential), the controller may have a ramping function, or delay, to any change in throttle.


With the first and second, changing the CAv3's Throttle Out min and max to match, fixes the mismatch that causes part (probably most) of the problem.

The third part, if it is significant, can be fixed by putting "blocks" into the mechanical path of the throttle rotation, to prevent it from moving beyond the active changing-voltage portion of the motion range. Exactly what "block" to use depends on the physical design of the throttle. Alternately, it can be replaced with a throttle that has less or no inactive portions of the motion range, like a cable-operated throttle where the cable can be adjusted to help with this.

The fourth part, if present, can only be fixed by changing the controller settings, if it has any, or replacing the controller if it does not.
 
Trawleysteve wrote: ↑

Jul 09 2020 3:19pm

(DID THIS TEST AND REQUIRED 1.43V (17% OUTPUT)JUST BEFORE THE WHEEL STARTED TO MOVE. NO REDUCTION IN DEAD ZONE)

Then you'd use 1.43v on the Throttle out minimum. That will translate the lower throttle in voltage to this, inside the CA.

(CHECKED THIS AND 3.68V IS THE THROTTLE OUTPUT AT MAX SPEED BUT ONLY SHOWING 88%)

Then set the throttle out max to this, 3.68v. That will trnaslate the higher (or lower) actual throttle in voltage to this, isnide the CA.
I DID THIS NO CHANGE WHAT SO EVER.

These two things will then remove the dead zone of the controller, *unless* it has a built in delay. The CA can't do anything about that, only if the ocntroller itself is programmable, or if you replace it with one that has no delay.

Also, if you have set other things like the throttle in values so that they don't respond immediately, you have to chagne those so it will. 
DONE NO IMPROVEMENT

Or if the throttle itself doesn't respond thru it's entire motion range (I've never had one that does, except cable-operated ones that can be adjusted). You'd have to replace it with one that responds immediately, or physically modify it so that it doesn't move outside of it's usable range. THROTTLE DOES RESPOND THROUGH ENTIRE MOTION

(EVEN WHEN I OPEN THE THROTTLE VERY SLOWLY THERE IS NO OUTPUT UNTIL IT REACHED 0.89V NO MATTER WHAT VALUES I PUT IN.

As noted before, if the throttle does not change in voltage output until you reach a certain position, then that is part of your problem. You cannot fix that except by either replacing the throttle with one that responds to it's full range (I've never had one, other than cable-operated where it can be adjusted), or mechanically modifying the throttle so it can't move outside of it's responsive physical range.
WHERE CAN I GET AN ADJUSTABLE THROTTLE?

If the throttle is changing voltage output from it's totally off bottom of movement range point, but you have the CA's input set to not respond until a certain voltage, then that's exactly what will happen--it won't respond until the thorttle input voltage reaches taht point.
NO SET 0.1VOLT HIGHER ON THROTTLE OUT.


AFAICT, you have three totally separate things, with a possible fourth, each of which is causing part of your problem.

First, the controller itself has a specific voltage range that it responds to throttle input. You have now experimentaly determined that is 1,43v minimum to 3,68v maximum. 

Second, the throttle itself has a specific voltage range that it outputs. You've experimentally determined that is 0.85v at it's lowest voltage, when "off", and is 4.26v at it's highest voltage. 

Third, the throttle has some "mechanical slack" at it's top and bottom portions of the movement range, where voltage doesnt' change. It may be very small, but there is *some* of this. 

Fourth (potential), the controller may have a ramping function, or delay, to any change in throttle. 


With the first and second, changing the CAv3's Throttle Out min and max to match, fixes the mismatch that causes part (probably most) of the problem.  DID THAT NO CHANGE AT ALL

The third part, if it is significant, can be fixed by putting "blocks" into the mechanical path of the throttle rotation, to prevent it from moving beyond the active changing-voltage portion of the motion range. Exactly what "block" to use depends on the physical design of the throttle. Alternately, it can be replaced with a throttle that has less or no inactive portions of the motion range, like a cable-operated throttle where the cable can be adjusted to help with this.  THIS IS WHERE I AM AT NOW, JUST MECHANICALLY SET THE THROTTLE TO REMOVE THE DEAD ZONE AS I HAVE TRIED EVERYTHING ELSE MANY TIMES!
THANKS FOR YOUR FEEDBACK AND ADVICE.

The fourth part, if present, can only be fixed by changing the controller settings, if it has any, or replacing the controller if it does not.
 
Without quotes it's hard to tell exactly which parts you've replied to now vs previously, so if I reply to something you said before, apologies.

Trawleysteve said:
I DID THIS NO CHANGE WHAT SO EVER.
Then that means the CA is doing everything that is possible to do, before getting to the controller.

At this point, if

the throttle input voltage to the CA begins *changing* in voltage (not just *outputting a steady voltage*!!!!) at the very start of motion, and continues to *change* in voltage throughout it's *entire* motion range,

then:

the controller itself would have to be replaced or reprogrammed,.

But If:

the controller responds *instantly* to the CA's fully changing voltage range on it's output, if you start by holding the throttle in it's beginning-of-changing-voltage portion of movement range so it is not contributing to the issue,

And:

there is *no delay* in the controller's response to throttle demand no matter how slowly or quickly you change the throttle voltage,

then:

the controller itself is *not* the problem, just the throttle itself.


If both of the above are a problem, then both parts have to be replaced /altered to fix the problem.


THROTTLE DOES RESPOND THROUGH ENTIRE MOTION

(EVEN WHEN I OPEN THE THROTTLE VERY SLOWLY THERE IS NO OUTPUT UNTIL IT REACHED 0.89V NO MATTER WHAT VALUES I PUT IN.

THIS IS WHERE I AM AT NOW, JUST MECHANICALLY SET THE THROTTLE TO REMOVE THE DEAD ZONE AS I HAVE TRIED EVERYTHING ELSE MANY TIMES!
Just to make sure, because the above three statements *appear* to conflict, and this is a very important point to troubleshoot your particular problem. Understanding what each of us means by various phrases and words is critical to learning what the problem actually is, and fixing it. So if it feels like I"m "harping on a point", it's just because it's not absolutely clear what you are seeing, and whether or not you know what I mean by something. :) And I want to help you fix the actual problem, and not chase ghosts.

Is the "no output until it reached 0.89v" on the CA's output measurement, or it's input measurement?

Is the "it" in that statement the *throttle's* voltage, or the CA's input voltage, or the CA's output voltage?

If it is the output measurement, it means the input is not yet set to match with the actual throttle input range. That's easy to fix by changing the CA's input range to match that of the throttle's voltage range.

If it is the input measurement, it means the throttle does *not* respond by changing it's voltage thru it's entire motion range. That requires altering the throttle's physical motion range to match it's changing-voltage range, or replacing it with one that does.





WHERE CAN I GET AN ADJUSTABLE THROTTLE?
Other than DIYing your own mechanical adjustments, like lockout screws or pins installed on your existing throttle to prevent it moving beyond the changing-voltage portion of it's movement range, the only kind I am aware of is a cable-operated throttle. I'm using this one:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32954909008.html
along with this ATV cable thumb throttle,
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GF9V6X7
here's one (no experience with the seller) that is just a throttle, no brake lever
https://www.amazon.com/Throttle-Accelerator-Control-Assembly-TaoTao/dp/B07FXNPCGS
but you can use any of the cable-pull throtte handles, so if you prefer a grip type throttle, there are a number of them; this one has both parts but I have no expereince with the seller:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32927228174.html

COTs are a bulkier option, because the COT unit itself is separate from the handlebar part, and is fairly large. I just ziptied mine to the tiller tube on my handlebars, but you may prefer a cleaner looking solution. If the cable you get is not long enough for this, you can get longer cables, or even use brake/derailer cables though you may need a larger cable-end stop for the throttle grip end, like these clamp-on ones:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000COCPZM/
 
Trawleysteve said:
THIS IS WHERE I AM AT NOW, JUST MECHANICALLY SET THE THROTTLE TO REMOVE THE DEAD ZONE AS I HAVE TRIED EVERYTHING ELSE MANY TIMES!
THANKS FOR YOUR FEEDBACK AND ADVICE.

If you're giving up on doing it with the CA then you might as well do it the old fashion was with a pot or two, which is pretty straightfoward, then tweak it from there:
https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kits/golden-motor-magic-pie/70584-guide-to-hall-sensor-throttle-operation-testing-and-modification
 
amberwolf said:
Without quotes it's hard to tell exactly which parts you've replied to now vs previously, so if I reply to something you said before, apologies.
Sorry about the confusion
Trawleysteve said:
I DID THIS NO CHANGE WHAT SO EVER.
Then that means the CA is doing everything that is possible to do, before getting to the controller.
No, I have put all the different values you have mentioned and my own values including ones outside the range on purpose for Throttle In Min and Max and the same for Throttle out min and max and none of them have made the slightest difference
At this point, if

the throttle input voltage to the CA begins *changing* in voltage (not just *outputting a steady voltage*!!!!) at the very start of motion, and continues to *change* in voltage throughout it's *entire* motion range,
The throttle input voltage changes as soon as you twist it with no dead spots but I do not get an output voltage until it reaches 0.9v then I get 1% output and this has not changed at all when I have used different values. The no-load wheel does not start turning until the input reaches 1.2v and the output is 18%.also as mentioned in my earlier replies the max output at full throttle is only 85%.
then:

the controller itself would have to be replaced or reprogrammed,.

But If:

the controller responds *instantly* to the CA's fully changing voltage range on it's output, if you start by holding the throttle in it's beginning-of-changing-voltage portion of movement range so it is not contributing to the issue,

And:

there is *no delay* in the controller's response to throttle demand no matter how slowly or quickly you change the throttle voltage,

then:

the controller itself is *not* the problem, just the throttle itself.


If both of the above are a problem, then both parts have to be replaced /altered to fix the problem.
Yes when in the working band the controller responds instantly. I did try a new throttle and it was exactly the same

THROTTLE DOES RESPOND THROUGH ENTIRE MOTION

(EVEN WHEN I OPEN THE THROTTLE VERY SLOWLY THERE IS NO OUTPUT UNTIL IT REACHED 0.89V NO MATTER WHAT VALUES I PUT IN.
What I mean here is, even though I am seeing an increase in Throttle In voltage there is no output until it reaches 0.89v
THIS IS WHERE I AM AT NOW, JUST MECHANICALLY SET THE THROTTLE TO REMOVE THE DEAD ZONE AS I HAVE TRIED EVERYTHING ELSE MANY TIMES!
Just to make sure, because the above three statements *appear* to conflict, and this is a very important point to troubleshoot your particular problem. Understanding what each of us means by various phrases and words is critical to learning what the problem actually is, and fixing it. So if it feels like I"m "harping on a point", it's just because it's not absolutely clear what you are seeing, and whether or not you know what I mean by something. :) And I want to help you fix the actual problem, and not chase ghosts.
Again sorry for the confusion and frustration in my reply. I do very much appreciate you taking the time to reply and help me try an resolve this issue
Is the "no output until it reached 0.89v" on the CA's output measurement, or it's input measurement?
Again sorry about the confusion. There is no Throttle % Output until the throttle is turned to give a value o 0.89v no matter what throttle in value I put in THRL min and Max
Is the "it" in that statement the *throttle's* voltage, or the CA's input voltage, or the CA's output voltage?

If it is the output measurement, it means the input is not yet set to match with the actual throttle input range. That's easy to fix by changing the CA's input range to match that of the throttle's voltage range.
This is what I thought at the start of all this butas I have mentioned, no matter what values I put in they make absolutely not the slightest difference at all.Which is very confusing
If it is the input measurement, it means the throttle does *not* respond by changing it's voltage thru it's entire motion range. That requires altering the throttle's physical motion range to match it's changing-voltage range, or replacing it with one that does.
Yes I tried a new throttle. same issues. I think I am just going to have to pin the one I have got and have it set mechanically so the start point is 0.9v. I am totally baffled by all of this. I have reloaded the 3.14 and reset to factory defaults just in case I had done something stupid!One other thing I have notices and I don't know if it is relevant. But when I change the percentage values for the three position Aux switch and have it set for power no mater what % value put in it make no change to the output of the controller and the switch only changes speed and no matter what value is inputted the speed settings don't change!

Thanks again for all your help. I very much appreciate it.





WHERE CAN I GET AN ADJUSTABLE THROTTLE?
Other than DIYing your own mechanical adjustments, like lockout screws or pins installed on your existing throttle to prevent it moving beyond the changing-voltage portion of it's movement range, the only kind I am aware of is a cable-operated throttle. I'm using this one:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32954909008.html
along with this ATV cable thumb throttle,
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07GF9V6X7
here's one (no experience with the seller) that is just a throttle, no brake lever
https://www.amazon.com/Throttle-Accelerator-Control-Assembly-TaoTao/dp/B07FXNPCGS
but you can use any of the cable-pull throtte handles, so if you prefer a grip type throttle, there are a number of them; this one has both parts but I have no expereince with the seller:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32927228174.html

COTs are a bulkier option, because the COT unit itself is separate from the handlebar part, and is fairly large. I just ziptied mine to the tiller tube on my handlebars, but you may prefer a cleaner looking solution. If the cable you get is not long enough for this, you can get longer cables, or even use brake/derailer cables though you may need a larger cable-end stop for the throttle grip end, like these clamp-on ones:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000COCPZM/
 
First, just some responses to confirm things. Then more troubleshooting, a ways down the post.


Trawleysteve said:
The throttle input voltage changes as soon as you twist it with no dead spots
Then there is no need for a different throttle, or mechanical adjustments to the one you have, it is working exactly in the fashion you need it to.

I did try a new throttle and it was exactly the same
As noted, the throttle can't be the problem if it does indeed respond by *changing it's voltage* thru the entire motion range. Not just by outputting a voltage, because it will always output a voltage, but by *changing* the voltage.

I'm repeating this because I want to be completely clear about the difference, because I've not used a hall throttle that does change in voltage thru it's entire motion range; there has always been some dead zone in which it doesnt' change at both ends of the motion range.

But if you've got one that does, it greatly simplifies troubleshooting.


Yes when in the working band the controller responds instantly.
Then you don't have any problem with the controller at all, and don't need to do anything with that.

This eliminates both the throttle, and the controller, so now that you know the response range of the controller, and the output range of the throttle, we can get your CA setup to convert the one to the other, and then it will just work.


but I do not get an output voltage until it reaches 0.9v then I get 1% output and this has not changed at all when I have used different values. The no-load wheel does not start turning until the input reaches 1.2v and the output is 18%.also as mentioned in my earlier replies the max output at full throttle is only 85%.

Then this means the values in the CA are still not set to match the actual throttle input, and the actual controller output, or what you are reporting for percentages, etc are not from the screens I have seen on the CA under similar circumstances, or you have the CA setup in the wrong throttle mode, or some other CA setting I'm not aware of has been changed to prevent throttle mapping, or you have a version of CA software I have not used, that has a bug in it causing this problem, or the CA is not actually outputting the voltages it says it is when it says it's doing it, or there is a wiring problem between the CA and the controller.

(Those are listed in order of likelihood, from most to least, based on what I've seen with other similar problems.)

You can use a voltmeter with red wire on the CA's Throttle Output wire (usually green), set to 20vdc range, black wire on any ground wire (usually black). Then slowly vary the throttle and watch the meter to see that the meter reads the same as the CA's Throttle OUT screen says it is sending.

It is probably the same point you'd be meausring at already, but if you measure at the controller's Throttle In wire (presumably on the 6-pin CA-DP connector of teh controller), you can verify the controller is receiving this signal correctly at least up to the connector itself.


There is no Throttle % Output until the throttle is turned to give a value o 0.89v no matter what throttle in value I put in THRL min and Max
Don't worry about what percentage numbers show. The only thing that matters is whether the motor responds to a particular throttle value set. If you get a motor response when you need to, that's all that matters. If you don't, then you have to change the voltage ranges till they give you what you want. ;) Pretend there *is* no percentage shown, and pay attention only to the motor response, and the values displayed.

I think you said you have the CA setup program. If so, can you save your settings as a file, and then attach that file to a post in this thread? You may have to rename the file .ZIP at the end to get the forum to accept it. If you do this I can see your actual settings, via the CA setup program on my computer here, and maybe see what the problem is.


AFAICS from what we've already discussed, you need to have the following settings, with the menu theyr'e in in ALL CAPS. Note that these settings would give operation *even at zero throttle*! as soon as the system is turned on, so don't test this without the powered wheel offground. You'd need to create some offset to prevent that, but don't worry about it now, you just want to ensure the system works first.

THROTTLE IN:
Input Throttle Mode: Pass-Thru
Zero Throttle Threshold: 0.85v
(this is your *actual throttle's* starting voltage, when not moved yet)
Full Throttle Threshold: 4.26v
(this is your *actual throttle's* maximum output voltage)
Fault Throtlte Threshold: 4.5v (or higher)
Throttle Auto Cruise: Off
Cruise Hold Range: (doesn't matter)

THROTTLE OUT:
Output Mode: Voltage
Min Throttle Output: 1.43Vv
(this is your *actual controller's* minimum input voltage)
Max Throttle Output: 3.68v
(this is your *actual controller's* maximum input voltage)
Ramp Down Rate: 99.99v/sec
Ramp Up Rate: 99.99v/sec
Fast Ramp Down Rate: 99.99v/sec
Fast Ramp Threshold: 0A (doesnt' really matter, since all ramps are the same)


But when I change the percentage values for the three position Aux switch and have it set for power no mater what % value put in it make no change to the output of the controller and the switch only changes speed and no matter what value is inputted the speed settings don't change!
Don't worry about anything else or using that switch in anything ohter than the first preset, in fact, you can disconnect the switch from the CA, until you first resolve the issue at hand.

Some advice: Never troubleshoot more than one problem at a time, or change more than one setting at a time, until you resolve an issue--whatever the issue is, in any system, or you won't know what fixes the issue, and wont' know what to do if it comes up again later. ;) And it complicates the whole process and makes it much much longer. :(



Trawleysteve said:
Sorry about the confusion
Not that it matters much at this point, but it would be easier to read and reply if you used the quote function; it's the same as the color function except using the "quote" button, just select the text you wish to quote, and then click the quote button. ;)

But mostly, delete anything you don't want to quote, anything not presently relevant, including other quotes. Just select the part you want to reply to and quote it, then type your reply below it. Then delete all the stuff you don't want to quote.
 
amberwolf said:
First, just some responses to confirm things. Then more troubleshooting, a ways down the post.




I'm repeating this because I want to be completely clear about the difference, because I've not used a hall throttle that does change in voltage thru it's entire motion range; there has always been some dead zone in which it doesnt' change at both ends of the motion range.

But if you've got one that does, it greatly simplifies trouboting.

It has a very small amount at the start and end of throttle movement.





The only thing that matters is whether the motor responds to a particular throttle value set. If you get a motor response when you need to, that's all that matters. If you don't, then you have to change the voltage ranges till they give you what you want. ;) Pretend there *is* no percentage shown, and pay attention only to the motor response, and the values displayed.

This was the key! :eek:
I looked at the actual output voltage to the controller like you said and not the percentage change. I changed this to the value when It started to turn the no-load wheel. It was quite high at 1.70v with a 0.83v Throttle Input but that worked and took away the throttle dead zone at the start . Although I have not been able to test the bike on the road yet. But it is the first time a value change has made a difference!

I think you said you have the CA setup program. If so, can you save your settings as a file, and then attach that file to a post in this thread? You may have to rename the file .ZIP at the end to get the forum to accept it. If you do this I can see your actual settings, via the CA setup program on my computer here, and maybe see what the problem is.

I have attached the Zip file.

AFAICS from what we've already discussed, you need to have the following settings, with the menu they're in in ALL CAPS. Note that these settings would give operation *even at zero throttle*! as soon as the system is turned on, so don't test this without the powered wheel off ground. You'd need to create some offset to prevent that, but don't worry about it now, you just want to ensure the system works first.

THROTTLE IN:
Input Throttle Mode: Pass-Thru
Zero Throttle Threshold: 0.85v
(this is your *actual throttle's* starting voltage, when not moved yet)
Full Throttle Threshold: 4.26v
(this is your *actual throttle's* maximum output voltage)
Fault Throtlte Threshold: 4.5v (or higher)
Throttle Auto Cruise: Off
Cruise Hold Range: (doesn't matter)

THROTTLE OUT:
Output Mode: Voltage
Min Throttle Output: 1.43Vv
(this is your *actual controller's* minimum input voltage)
Max Throttle Output: 3.68v
(this is your *actual controller's* maximum input voltage)
Ramp Down Rate: 99.99v/sec
Ramp Up Rate: 99.99v/sec
Fast Ramp Down Rate: 99.99v/sec
Fast Ramp Threshold: 0A (doesn't' really matter, since all ramps are the same)

I installed these values to start with. Then changed as mentioned above.

So things are looking positive at last. Thank you for your persistence amberwolf, it is much appreciated.

Hopefully I will see a great improvement when I get to test ride it tomorrow. Then fingers crossed it will just be the 3 position switch which no matter which setting I put it on Power, Current etc. Only controls speed and seems fixed at; Pos1.10mph, Pos 2. 20mph and Pos 3. 30mph!

Thank you again amberwolf for your continued help.
 

Attachments

  • New Setup TEST 1 14July20.zip
    588 bytes · Views: 27
Trawleysteve said:
I'm repeating this because I want to be completely clear about the difference, because I've not used a hall throttle that does change in voltage thru it's entire motion range; there has always been some dead zone in which it doesnt' change at both ends of the motion range.

But if you've got one that does, it greatly simplifies trouboting.

It has a very small amount at the start and end of throttle movement.
Then it *does* have a dead zone, which you can either replace the throttle with one like a cable-operated type that has cable-tension/position adjustments, or add mechanical limiters to your existing throttle to prevent it from moving outside the range of continously-variable-voltage.





This was the key! :eek:
I looked at the actual output voltage to the controller like you said and not the percentage change. I changed this to the value when It started to turn the no-load wheel. It was quite high at 1.70v with a 0.83v Throttle Input but that worked and took away the throttle dead zone at the start . Although I have not been able to test the bike on the road yet. But it is the first time a value change has made a difference!

I'm glad it made a difference. Did it fix the problem completely, or just partially?


I have attached the Zip file.
I'll check it out and see if I see any issues.

Hopefully I will see a great improvement when I get to test ride it tomorrow. Then fingers crossed it will just be the 3 position switch which no matter which setting I put it on Power, Current etc. Only controls speed and seems fixed at; Pos1.10mph, Pos 2. 20mph and Pos 3. 30mph!
We'll deal with that once throttle is working, but there are settings for each of the presets for a number of (but not all) menu settings. To make them work, then using the CA setup program, you just setup everything correctly for the first preset, leaving the others alone, and make sure it works.

Once it does, then you choose the Preset function for the AuX input, and if it's the Grin supplied switch, you use the percentages that switch is designed for (33 and 66, I think).

Then you go to the second preset column, and change only the values there that you need to, otherwise make them all match the first preset. If it doesn't have anything you can change in that field, it means that menu setting is global, and can't be changed with presets. Once that preset works, then do the same for the 3rd preset.
 
Then it *does* have a dead zone, which you can either replace the throttle with one like a cable-operated type that has cable-tension/position adjustments, or add mechanical limiters to your existing throttle to prevent it from moving outside the range of continuously-variable-voltage.

I would not say the throttle doesn't have a dead zone any more. I have tuned it all out and the test ride went well today. A huge improvement. I would say it is now respondinging like a motorbike throttle with a tiny amount of movement before the power comes on.


I'm glad it made a difference. Did it fix the problem completely, or just partially?

Yes fixed completely as far as I can tell. Just a problem with speed. It used to do 30 mph. Now it will only do 22mph no matter which throttle setting I have it in (Speed, Power, Current etc). It is not getting anywhere near max current.

I have attached the Zip file.
I'll check it out and see if I see any issues.

It will just be the 3 position switch which no matter which setting I put it on Power, Current etc. Only controls speed and seems fixed at; Pos1.10mph, Pos 2. 20mph and Pos 3. 30mph!

We'll deal with that once throttle is working, but there are settings for each of the presets for a number of (but not all) menu settings. To make them work, then using the CA setup program, you just setup everything correctly for the first preset, leaving the others alone, and make sure it works.

Once it does, then you choose the Preset function for the AuX input, and if it's the Grin supplied switch, you use the percentages that switch is designed for (33 and 66, I think).

Then you go to the second preset column, and change only the values there that you need to, otherwise make them all match the first preset. If it doesn't have anything you can change in that field, it means that menu setting is global, and can't be changed with presets. Once that preset works, then do the same for the 3rd preset.

I realised I left the three position switch connected directly to the controller, as it had this option. I have connected it to the CA3 now. It is working in a fashion, but I think I need to do more work on it. I disconnected it because I was only getting 22 mph. But even when disconnected, I am still only getting 22 mph, whereas before I was getting 30mph? Not sure why that is. Any ideas?
 
Trawleysteve said:
Yes fixed completely as far as I can tell.
Good. :)

Just a problem with speed. It used to do 30 mph. Now it will only do 22mph no matter which throttle setting I have it in (Speed, Power, Current etc). It is not getting anywhere near max current.
<snip>
I realised I left the three position switch connected directly to the controller, as it had this option. I have connected it to the CA3 now. It is working in a fashion, but I think I need to do more work on it. I disconnected it because I was only getting 22 mph. But even when disconnected, I am still only getting 22 mph, whereas before I was getting 30mph? Not sure why that is. Any ideas?

There's a few things that could be. One of them is the 3speed switch, because you had it on the controller, and I don't know exactly how your controller responds to it, or how the switch is actually wired.

Is the switch a Grin-provided switch for the CA? Or is it a switch taht came with the Lyen controller, or is it one from somewhere else. Its' very important, as they are not wired the same and wont' do the same job.


The Grin switch has resistors built into it, and switches between three resistances, to connect to the Aux In plug so the CA can see three different voltages, and thus change presets based on that.


The Lyen (or generic controller switch) has no resistors, and just has an On Off On setup, that either connects one of the end pins with the center pin, or no connection. On the Lyen or other controllers, these are typically meant to switch between different "throttle" settings, usually like 80%, 100% and 120%. The default, since the switch is Off in the center position, is 100%, so having no switch connected is the same as center position when it's plugged in.


I've attached a modified version of your setup file, with suggested changes. Don't directly upload it to your CA, but just see if the changes in it vs your present setup, and make whichever changes you want to try first.

The main thing is some of the limits. Like with the power and current, unless you have a specific need to limit them, such as to prevent battery voltage sag, or other battery issues, or to limit motor power to prevent overheating, etc, I recommend leaving them unlimited (as I set them in the attached file).

Do you actually have a temperature sensor in the system? If so, what type is it, and what scaling does it use? If you're not *certain* of this, I'd leave it disabled in the CA for now, so the CA doesn't limit you based on a wrong reading.

I turned off the preset/aux in as well, so nothing about it can cause you a problem.


Is your wheel circumference correct in the CA? If not, or if it wasn't before, then speed now will be different than before (though usually not by that much unless it's a wildly wrong value).

Same thing for number of poles (which should be half the number of magnets in your motor, if you don't have a separate speed sensor).

Are you certain the shunt resistance is 1.333mohm? I know Lyen usually prints this on the controller casing, so it should be easy to check for. If not, you can measure it, with certain equipment. I ask because 1.333 just seems too "round"...most of the shunt values tend to be more "random" sounding, like 1.041 or 1.375, or whatever, because of the way they are made and installed into the controller. (except for precision external shunts like the CA's SA model).
 

Attachments

  • New Setup TEST 1 14July20 suggested settings for testing .zip
    651 bytes · Views: 29
There's a few things that could be. One of them is the 3 speed switch, because you had it on the controller, and I don't know exactly how your controller responds to it, or how the switch is actually wired.

I think because I have disconnected it from both the Lyen controller and the CA and my top speed has dropped by 10 mph. There is an influence from the Lyen controller and maybe two of the wires on the Lyen controller should be connected together to give full speed? And then I can control it with the correct Grin switch via the CA 3.(I tried this. Connected the two wires that give 100% speed (30 mph) It ran at 30 mph but as would be expected the CA switch had no influence.) I know the switch I am using is not the correct switch, however It did work on low and medium setting with the Lyen switch disconnected but obviously it is only giving 20 mph which is the setting for medium speed(20 mph) which is no switch connected on the Lyen controller. If you follow all that!( I have had a reply from E.Lyen he said to do what I have already done. However as I mentioned earlier. It seemed not to allow the CA to control the speed!) Maybe I need to get a Grin switch from the USA. As supply here in the UK is generally only CA3 and not the accessories. Or I could make one!

Is the switch a Grin-provided switch for the CA? Or is it a switch that came with the Lyen controller, or is it one from somewhere else. Its' very important, as they are not wired the same and wont' do the same job.

No it is not a Grin switch. It came from Lyen. It does work on low and medium setting for the values I put into the CA. But not the top setting.It just flashes the CA telling me there is a polarity issue! However as I mentioned earlier even with it disconnected and switched off in the CA. I am still only getting a top speed of 20 mph.


The Grin switch has resistors built into it, and switches between three resistances, to connect to the Aux In plug so the CA can see three different voltages, and thus change presets based on that.

Yes I am aware of this.

The Lyen (or generic controller switch) has no resistors, and just has an On Off On setup, that either connects one of the end pins with the center pin, or no connection. On the Lyen or other controllers, these are typically meant to switch between different "throttle" settings, usually like 80%, 100% and 120%. The default, since the switch is Off in the center position, is 100%, so having no switch connected is the same as center position when it's plugged in.

I have checked out the Lyen switch and it is "no switch" in the centre position. That is why I am only getting 22 mph. Which was the mid speed before I disconnected it.


I've attached a modified version of your setup file, with suggested changes. Don't directly upload it to your CA, but just see if the changes in it vs your present setup, and make whichever changes you want to try first.

The main thing is some of the limits. Like with the power and current, unless you have a specific need to limit them, such as to prevent battery voltage sag, or other battery issues, or to limit motor power to prevent overheating, etc, I recommend leaving them unlimited (as I set them in the attached file).

Thank you for the modified setup file. I was surprised at your power and current settings.I think the batteries can take it (24Ahr 72V 12C) I have limited mine to take into account the controller max current (65A) although this I believe is continuous current so have upped it to 75A. I generally only need fullpower for short hills when riding off-road so 20-30 seconds. I am using a MXUS 3Kw hub motor which I believe can take 5Kw for a short period, so have upped max power to 5.5Kw. I haven't tried your Throttle Ramp Up Rates etc. Will they not give me a very fast wheel lifting starts from stationary? Or make slow speed off-road technical sections a bit jerky? I will experiment!

Do you actually have a temperature sensor in the system? If so, what type is it, and what scaling does it use? If you're not *certain* of this, I'd leave it disabled in the CA for now, so the CA doesn't limit you based on a wrong reading.

Yes I do have a sensor. There is a KTY83/110 built into the MXUS hub,it uses the Linear setting. This is the reason I upgraded to this hub and the CA 3. As I burnt out my first motor riding slow steep technical sections off-road in mud. Some of it was nievirty having come from motor bikes! So I need and use the temperature feedback a lot. However I never have Temp rollback when on the fast sections and wanting 30 mph.

I turned off the preset/aux in as well, so nothing about it can cause you a problem.

Yes I have done the same but it made no change!

Is your wheel circumference correct in the CA? If not, or if it wasn't before, then speed now will be different than before (though usually not by that much unless it's a wildly wrong value).

Same thing for number of poles (which should be half the number of magnets in your motor, if you don't have a separate speed sensor).

Yes wheel circumference and poles are correct. Have never changed them from original correct setup.


Are you certain the shunt resistance is 1.333mohm? I know Lyen usually prints this on the controller casing, so it should be easy to check for. If not, you can measure it, with certain equipment. I ask because 1.333 just seems too "round"...most of the shunt values tend to be more "random" sounding, like 1.041 or 1.375, or whatever, because of the way they are made and installed into the controller. (except for precision external shunts like the CA's SA model).

It is not on the casing. I wrote to Edward Lyen and he gave me this value for my controller. Maybe he just gave me a generic number!

Thanks again for all your advise.
 
You're not going to get the higher speed that your controller is capable of by manipulating the CA settings, since the CA only affect the throttle output (input to the controller). Did you change the programming for your 3 speed settings in the controller setup? That's where you can change the settings to increase the field weakening for the third speed setting.
 
Trawleysteve said:
There is an influence from the Lyen controller and maybe two of the wires on the Lyen controller should be connected together to give full speed? (I tried this. Connected the two wires that give 100% speed (30 mph) It ran at 30 mph but as would be expected the CA switch had no influence.)

Some points, so you know how this stuff should be working:

Your speed has dropped by 1/3 (30mph to 20mph), correct?

That's a lot more than you should get by the "normal" (100%) setting of the three speed switch on the Lyen, whcih is what it is at with no switch attached, vs the "fast" (120%) setting, which is at most 1/5 more throttle. (for a speed-type throttle like the Lyens use, it should take significantly more than 1/3 more throttle to get 1/3 more speed, because you also have very significant air resistance to overcome above 20mph). I'd guess that normally, you'd get *at most* 5mph more, probably less, with that 120% switch setting.

So connecting the center wire of the three speed switch connector to it's "high" wire shouldn't get you taht much mroe top speed, which means something else is going on.

But since it does give you that much more speed, then it means the Lyen is not setup like they usually would be, and either he or you has reprogrammed it's 3-speed switch settigns to something drastically different than it would normally be. Which means only experimentation tells you what it will really do.



I know the switch I am using is not the correct switch, however It did work on low and medium setting with the Lyen switch disconnected but obviously it is only giving 20 mph which is the setting for medium speed(20 mph) which is no switch connected on the Lyen controller. If you follow all that!(
Not exactly. But since the switch is not a grin switch then it wont' work the way a grin switch would, unless you modify it to be wired that way.

The lyen switch is wired to either connect the center pin to one end, or the other end, or no connection (center).

The grin switch is wired with resistors inside to provide three voltage levels on the signal wire, and that's how the CA is setup to work with it.

To use the Lyen switch, you'll have to use a different CA setup. That is documented in the CaV3_UUG_3-0e.pdf on page 38, for Preset Mode. The UUG is linked in this post
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=571345#p571345
This only gives you two presets. You'd use the wiring on the left (meaning, only one of the switch positions will work, the other just doesnt' do anything). AFAIK, for this (but not certain as I've never done it this way), you'd set the CA to:
Aux->MinAuxIn = 0.0V
Aux->MaxAuxIn = 4.99V
Analog Aux Settings, would be 2-pos switch, Aux input function Presets, and set the two percentage values to 100% and 0%.
presetswitch wiring.png


Or you can add the resistors to your Lyen switch, per that diagram (rigthside), and use it as a normal Grin three-position preset switch.




Thank you for the modified setup file. I was surprised at your power and current settings.I think the batteries can take it (24Ahr 72V 12C) I have limited mine to take into account the controller max current (65A) although this I believe is continuous current so have upped it to 75A.
The controller will take care of it's own limits. There is no need to setup the CA to the same limit, and if you do, it will affect operation if you start using Power or Current throttle modes, in ways you may not want. So I would set the CA to unlimited, unless there are specific reasons you want to limit to someting *less than* what your controller can do.

One example might be if your battery is incapable of handling the controller's max power. You would then set the CA's limits to what the battery could handle, to prevent problems with the battery cutting out or being overstressed.

Another example is if your motor can't handle more than a certain amount of power without overheating...but if you limit it this way, you're also limiting your *peak* power as well, so you never get to use the peak power of the motor at all. If you instead limit to the peak power, it doesn't protect the motor against too much power for overheating purposes, because you can still put peak power into it continously this way.


Side note: If your battery has a "12C" rating, it's probably really just a short peak (few seconds), and likely has a much lower (half or less) continuous rating. Even stuff like RC LiPo that has more or less realistic high C-rates, will generally last a lot longer if it's not used at those rates. ;)

Anyhow, a 12C 24Ah battery should be capable of nearly 300A, so if it's really a continous rating, Or even if ti's only half of that, your battery should have no problems handling whatever you're going to throw at it with that controller. ;)




I generally only need fullpower for short hills when riding off-road so 20-30 seconds. I am using a MXUS 3Kw hub motor which I believe can take 5Kw for a short period,
That kinda depends. I am using two MXUS 3k motors a 4503 and 4504, in 20" (22" actual diameter with the big tires I'm using) on the SB Cruiser trike. They only really take 3000w when they're in 20" wheels. In 26" wheels, they're maybe 2000w motors, because they ahve to work harder in the bigger wheel to do the same job. There's a thread about these motors with a lot of discussion if you're interested I can find a link, or it is listed as the 4503, 4504, and 4505 on the grin simulator.

It should still take much higher short peaks, like you're seeing, but if they are repetitive and frequent, it can still accumulate heat in the motor, especially if you're going slow up those hills (slow *and* high power in a motor not specifically geared for that speed is a recipe for making an oven inside the motor).


so have upped max power to 5.5Kw. I haven't tried your Throttle Ramp Up Rates etc. Will they not give me a very fast wheel lifting starts from stationary? Or make slow speed off-road technical sections a bit jerky? I will experiment!
If you want precise instant throttle control (which seems to be the point of this thread ;) ), you don't really want any form of ramping. If you use any ramping, then you do not have control over the throttle--the CA does. So let's say you need to let off the throttle RIGHT NOW to avoid something, and were at half throttle, around 2v. Let's say you have 4v/second ramping. It's going to take half a second for the throttle to drop to zero, and in that half second, you might fail to avoid whatever it was. :( Similarly, same ramping, you are at zero throttle, and need to suddenly have half throttle--it'll take half a second to get that, as it slowly ramps up to it.

What would be best for this kind of usage is a current (torque) throttle based controller, so the throttle demands a certain amount of current, which is really asking it to provide a certain amount of torque.

This is a lot easier to control than the type you have now, which is speed (pwm) based throttle, so the throttle demands a certain amount of motor voltage via PWM, which is really asking it to spin at a certain speed.

Yes I do have a sensor. There is a KTY83/110 built into the MXUS hub,it uses the Linear setting. This is the reason I upgraded to this hub and the CA 3. As I burnt out my first motor riding slow steep technical sections off-road in mud. Some of it was nievirty having come from motor bikes! So I need and use the temperature feedback a lot. However I never have Temp rollback when on the fast sections and wanting 30 mph.
Sounds good then. Just to be sure, you may want to use a thermometer to calibrate the readout, to make sure it is reading correctly at both the low end and high end, and not just at ambient. IIRC I had to adjust the settings in the CA for the actual sensor in the motor, as it didnt' read quite what it should for that model of sensor (there's a chance they are counterfeits; see this thread:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=107288 )
So you could do a ride that heats up the motor, then measure the temperature with one of those handheld "gun type" laser-IR thermometers, in as many places on the cover, axle, etc as you can meausure. It will usually increase in temperature for a while after you stop, as the heat soaks out of the windings and into the magnets and side covers. If the CA is setup right, then at some point the reading on the CA and the reading on the thermometer will be very close, when both inside and outside are the same temperature.

Yes wheel circumference and poles are correct. Have never changed them from original correct setup.
Do you mean by "original" that the default CA setup was already correct for your wheel? THat would be odd, as every tire is different, and different inflation levels make for different circumference. ;) A few mm doesnt' make much difference, so it wouldn't matter over the short term, but if you want precision, you'll want to measure the tire. ;)

If you mean by "original" that you did all that when first setting up the CA, then your'e all set.

But if you have the MXUS 450x series 3kw motor, then yes, it is 23 poles.


It is not on the casing. I wrote to Edward Lyen and he gave me this value for my controller. Maybe he just gave me a generic number!
It's possible. There's documentation that shows ways to measure it, if you want to be sure it is accurate, so that you get precise current measurement (since all the CA current/power/watt stuff in every menu/display/etc is based on that). .

If it's close enough, it doesnt' matter.
 
Some points, so you know how this stuff should be working:

Your speed has dropped by 1/3 (30mph to 20mph), correct?

That's a lot more than you should get by the "normal" (100%) setting of the three speed switch on the Lyen, which is what it is at with no switch attached, vs the "fast" (120%) setting, which is at most 1/5 more throttle. (for a speed-type throttle like the Lyens use, it should take significantly more than 1/3 more throttle to get 1/3 more speed, because you also have very significant air resistance to overcome above 20mph). I'd guess that normally, you'd get *at most* 5mph more, probably less, with that 120% switch setting.

So connecting the center wire of the three speed switch connector to it's "high" wire shouldn't get you that much more top speed, which means something else is going on.

But since it does give you that much more speed, then it means the Lyen is not setup like they usually would be, and either he or you has reprogrammed it's 3-speed switch settings to something drastically different than it would normally be. Which means only experimentation tells you what it will really do.


I wrote to E.Lyen regarding the switch settings, which I have not altered in the controller and this is his reply:

I generally program the three-speed switch settings as 33%, 66%,
and 100% to have them spread evenly.

As for the no switch input default to 100% and position three at 120%,
it is a personal preference. You may reprogram the three-speed
settings to the way you want using the optional USB-TTL programming
adapter.

Theoretically, you may get higher than 32mph speed when the 120%
setting is chosen (controller reprogram required). However, I would
not recommend using the 120% setting all the time since it will put a
lot of stress on the high power transistors (MOSFETs).



Or you can add the resistors to your Lyen switch, per that diagram (right side), and use it as a normal Grin three-position preset switch.

Resistors on order. Will link the wires on the controller to give max speed.



Side note: If your battery has a "12C" rating, it's probably really just a short peak (few seconds), and likely has a much lower (half or less) continuous rating. Even stuff like RC LiPo that has more or less realistic high C-rates, will generally last a lot longer if it's not used at those rates. ;)

Anyhow, a 12C 24Ah battery should be capable of nearly 300A, so if it's really a continuous rating, Or even if it's only half of that, your battery should have no problems handling whatever you're going to throw at it with that controller. ;)

Checked batteries they are 10C with 20C capability for 15 seconds. Still plenty.


It should still take much higher short peaks, like you're seeing, but if they are repetitive and frequent, it can still accumulate heat in the motor, especially if you're going slow up those hills (slow *and* high power in a motor not specifically geared for that speed is a recipe for making an oven inside the motor).

I am always watching temp read out due to previous experience!


What would be best for this kind of usage is a current (torque) throttle based controller, so the throttle demands a certain amount of current, which is really asking it to provide a certain amount of torque.

I agree. I set the CaA up with the parameters you suggested and current based throttle. Went half a mile down the road to test it yesterday and lost all power due to a broken connection on my battery isolator switch!! :cry: Am waiting for another to be delivered.




Do you mean by "original" that the default CA setup was already correct for your wheel? THat would be odd, as every tire is different, and different inflation levels make for different circumference. ;) A few mm doesn't' make much difference, so it wouldn't matter over the short term, but if you want precision, you'll want to measure the tire. ;)

If you mean by "original" that you did all that when first setting up the CA, then your'e all set.

But if you have the MXUS 450x series 3kw motor, then yes, it is 23 poles.

I did all the set up myself, including sitting on the bike while rolling it to get the correct tyre circumference.
 
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