New build issue

Fjp · Dec 2, 2020

Hello, I am about to order DD hub motor with 175 mm dropouts. The dropout on my Trident Fat Trekker trike is 194mm. I can add spacers to make up the 19mm and keep the wheel centered, but that would mean that the derailleur limit would need to move inboard to make up the 9.5mm’s! Does anyone know if that much adjustment is likely? Not sure this would work, but I’d be okay with adjusting derailleur as far Inboard as possible, even if I lost a few of the lower gears. But I’m thinking that if I did that, that when I upshift to the highest gear I am move the derailleur to far outboard and snag the chain between sprocket and the frame. Can the bar end shifter be adjusted to help this? Any other ideas?

Im grateful for any suggestions,
Frank

E-HP · Dec 2, 2020

Fjp said:
Not sure this would work, but I’d be okay with adjusting derailleur as far Inboard as possible, even if I lost a few of the lower gears. But I’m thinking that if I did that, that when I upshift to the highest gear I am move the derailleur to far outboard and snag the chain between sprocket and the frame. Can the bar end shifter be adjusted to help this?
Frank

Maybe a picture might help. Based on your description, wouldn't you have 10mm of washers between the smallest cog and the frame?

Fjp · Dec 2, 2020

Sorry I can’t provide a picture right now..... I know it’s hard to visualize. Yes you are correct, 9.5 to be exact. Which means I’d need to move the derailleur toward the cassette that same amount. Not sure I can move It that far by using the high limit screw? Really trying to make this work as there isn’t much else to choose from given my hub motor selection.
Thank you very much,
Frank

John in CR · Dec 2, 2020

A few millimeters less washer to pit up a few mm of flex in the swingarm plus adjusting the derailleur may get you there. That's assuming it's AL. If it's steel then you can easily get the swingarm to the width you need at the dropouts. If I still couldn't get it there, then I'd either figure out how to fab a spacer to go at the derailleur hanger, or more likely incorporate a derailleur hanger into my torque arm that I'd use to take up the space instead of washer. Now that I think about it, that last idea is exactly how I'd go.

E-HP · Dec 2, 2020

John in CR said:
If I still couldn't get it there, then I'd either figure out how to fab a spacer to go at the derailleur hanger, or more likely incorporate a derailleur hanger into my torque arm that I'd use to take up the space instead of washer. Now that I think about it, that last idea is exactly how I'd go.

I was thinking about something like that, but it's really hard to see how the stock hanger is mounted looking at pics of the trike. But I think the torque arm/plate idea, but located inside of the dropouts (substituting for ~5mm of washers), and drilled and tapped to allow mounting of the derailleur, might work. :roll:

goatman · Dec 2, 2020

i made spacers out of 3/8 aluminum plate (9.5mm) its easy to work with a skilsaw and a drill.
ive read somewhere on this site that youre better off not using multiple washers for centering the wheel but get ones of the right thickness.

heres the torque arm picture thread to see what people have done

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26444&start=175#p1523979

efMX Trials Electric Freeride · Dec 2, 2020

Fjp said:
Sorry I can’t provide a picture right now..... I know it’s hard to visualize. Yes you are correct, 9.5 to be exact. Which means I’d need to move the derailleur toward the cassette that same amount. Not sure I can move It that far by using the high limit screw? Really trying to make this work as there isn’t much else to choose from given my hub motor selection.
Thank you very much,
Frank

maybe try a longer limit screw from the hardware store..?

Fjp · Dec 3, 2020

As usual you guys have the experience and creativity to come up with solid suggestions! I’ll begin to pursue them this weekend when the trike arrives. Thanks, Frank

Fjp · Dec 3, 2020

Good morning, what do you think of dishing the rim to the opposite side of the cassette and putting all or most of the spacers on that that side? Seems like I could get some or all of the 9.5mm that way! Any issues with strength or the physics of this?
Thanks,
Frank

neptronix · Dec 3, 2020

If you dish the wheel that much.. then the wheel will be offset which will have big negative effects on steering/handling, and also there will be a lot more stress on one side.

If the wheel is centered..

A derailleur limit screw will not have an adjustment to make up for nearly 10mm. You will have to lose access to half your gears if you do this.

Also 10mm of spacers on your disc brake is not desirable either.

This is way too much spacing to correct.. IMHO

Fjp · Dec 3, 2020

Glad I asked. Thank you. I think I will move on to a different hub. I have not been able to get on to Grin’s website so can’t get any info from their. My others options are a geared rear hub and I am annoyed by the noise after being spoiled for many years with my Crystalite DD. I’m a little uncertain about the noise level of BBSHD on a trike and am not thrilled with all the constant downshifting for hills.... I live in very hilly country. Thanks for the advice guys, saved my bacon again!
Frank

John in CR · Dec 3, 2020

You'd be dishing it by less than 1cm, which to me is a non-issue. With it on a trike, I don't think you'll lose enough lateral rigidity to make a difference, and I think Neptronix may have been looking at it wrong to bring up handling as an issue, since your plan is to put the tire right where it should be with no changes to the swingarm. Even on a bike I think handling would be identical other than maybe a very slight shift of the motor weight to the left.

For future reference it is possible to get the best of both worlds regarding hills, and that's with a high Kv DD hubbie outside of the wheel and geared down to a very small wheel effective size. Using bicycle chain and large sprockets the chain can be effectively silent and durable unlike the bottom bracket type mid-drives. With top and bottom chain tensioners you can keep regen too. I made one like that for a guy and he was hauling a passenger up the extremely steep roads built for wind turbine installations. He was always sending me pics from mountain tops all around the country.

You want a fast wind motor so you don't have to go to too high a voltage after the gear reduction to get a healthy top speed out of it.

Chalo · Dec 3, 2020

When lacing a hub motor, usually the best cross pattern is X1, and sometimes it's radial. In either case, it's possible to lace all the spokes on the same side of the hub flange, which can buy back about 3mm of offset. I do this routinely when lacing asymmetrical hub motors.

Fjp · Dec 4, 2020

Problem resolved again..... that was the last issue. I ordered 48v 1200 watt DD kit from ebikeling today. I’ll follow up with photos and ride review.
Thanks again for the expert help,
Frank

Fjp · Dec 14, 2020

Good Evening,
I have mounted my hub motor and am concerned about the 17.5mm of spacing on each side of the axle (see pics below)! Will this cause any issues. Also, the axle is fully bedded into the dropout however, the nut is sticking below the dropout.... any issues with that? Lastly, the axle is flush with the end of the nut, is that okay?

Thank you for indulging my rookie questions,
Frank

Fjp · Dec 14, 2020

Pictures

Chalo · Dec 14, 2020

It is an unusual frame that can't be cold set (bent) to a wider or narrower spacing. For the size of discrepancy you're up against, the frame would have to be steel, which it appears to be.

I would respace the frame rather than stuff in a hokey pile of axle spacers, for sure. Best to solicit a service-oriented bike shop's help with that. They'll align the dropouts back to parallel after squeezing the frame to the correct spacing.

neptronix · Dec 14, 2020

is that a 150mm wide motor?

markz · Dec 14, 2020

That is a lot of spacing. Do what goatman says 2 posts down and add another nut on the inside and if you have to you can take a grinder to the nut to make it thinner. I did that with my Leaf 1500W on a Trek 700C, in order to have enough space to get a 1/4" steel plate t.a. installed.

Fjp said:
Hello, I am about to order DD hub motor with 175 mm dropouts. The dropout on my Trident Fat Trekker trike is 194mm. I can add spacers to make up the 19mm and keep the wheel centered, but that would mean that the derailleur limit would need to move inboard to make up the 9.5mm’s! Does anyone know if that much adjustment is likely? Not sure this would work, but I’d be okay with adjusting derailleur as far Inboard as possible, even if I lost a few of the lower gears. But I’m thinking that if I did that, that when I upshift to the highest gear I am move the derailleur to far outboard and snag the chain between sprocket and the frame. Can the bar end shifter be adjusted to help this? Any other ideas?

Im grateful for any suggestions,
Frank

Fjp · Dec 14, 2020

The specs say it’s 170mm but I measure it closer to 160mm.
Thank you,
Frank

goatman · Dec 14, 2020

id be tempted to get 2 more axle nuts so theres a nut on each side of the drop out, to try and lock the axle to the bike.

youre not using regen on the trike right?

Fjp · Dec 14, 2020

Nope, not using regen.
Thanks,
Frank

Fjp · Dec 15, 2020

Cold setting the frame seems like a good idea, if I can find a shop willing to do it. I like the idea of 2 more axle nuts. I should have asked if using all the spacers/nuts the axle is likely to bend or break? I’m an old 175 lbs so I don’t hot rod, “Anymore”, but I do ride mostly bumpy gravel roads. Ever seen this situation before?
Thank you again,
Frank

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