Recumbent

chooks42

1 mW
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Messages
10
Location
Maleny, Australia
I have a 500w cyclone mid drive motor on my Greenspeed recumbent. I bought the motor about 8 years ago. (The motor is under the seat with dual sprocket setup so that the power goes thru the shorter stronger chain at the back and not the whole recumbent chain. I have a nuvinci 360 hub. (photos included in posts below)

Cyclone has a nice controller, LCD for the right price, but it doesn’t do torque sensing, which is a must have in my books.

The motor will do up to 48v.

I would like advice on what setup is best. I would like LCD screen, BB torque sensor, 2 or 3 chainring on front. I’m also keen to have as much control over programming parameters as I can. Preferably just change controller etc and leave motor as is.

Thanks.
 
By torque sensing, do you mean using the BB torque sensor to control motor power?

Or do you mean feedback-sensing the torque (phase current) of the motor itself to more finely operate it?


If the former, then you can leave your existing controller if it otherwise works fine for you, and then add the Cycle Analyst v3 and the BB torque sensor (Thun, Sempu, TDCM, etc). There are some limitations to how the CA interprets and acts upon the torque signals, but it works fine for most applications. It takes the torque and cadence inputs from the BB sensor and converts them into the throttle signal your existing controller expects, based on the settings you choose in the menu.
https://ebikes.ca/getting-started/pas-options.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8caNICjbwU
https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/cycle-analyst-3.html

If you are set on replacing the controller, you can probably use the KT type controllers and matching displays, and then reprogram it with the Open Source FirmWare by Casainho, Stancecoke, et. al. that's on Github and in at least one big thread around here (there is also OSFW for some of the displays).
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=87870

I don't know which one would do more of waht you expect of it.


If the latter, then you're essentially looking for an FOC controller; I don't know which ones would also directly accept BB torque sensor input.
 
Thanks!

Yes, I meant a BB torque sensor. Thanks for the links. It sounds like the Sempu would be my preference (using existing chain ring, measures torque on both legs). Comments?

The CA3 looks amazing! I think that will work. Do you know if the CA3 can be programmed to turn the lights on? Does the CA3 work on 16" wheels (i have a X5 greenspeed).

I'm thinking of going 48v, if i did, i'd have to change controller anyway. I could just upgrade with another cyclone controller, or go with the KT one that you mentioned. What would be the advantage either way?

I really appreciate this- I'm on my own with this project. Most bikes stores can't help.
 
I am not sure how your setup looks like, do you have a freewheel on your crank today? If you do, none of the standard torque sensors work without a lot of DIY. Only one I know of would be the one in the CYC X1 kit with their gen2 freewheel. They sell them separately in their shop.

I would recommend the Cycle Analyst as amberwolf says, and if you are replacing the controller, a Baserunner or Phaserunner (if it is compatible with your motor, Im not 100% sure). The electric freewheel feature is amazing on a mid drive, it gets rid of the CLUNK every time you go off and on throttle, and the keeps the response from the torque sensor almost instant when you have it dialed correctly.
 
Thanks for weighing in. Good to get second opinion

Photo enclosed (the chain is rusty - just proof of concept at the moment). The mid-drive is a dual sprocket, the inside fixed sprocket goes to the nuvinci 360, the freewheel sprocket is the outer, which goes to the front 3-ring crank. There won't be a throttle, just a 'pedalec'.

How could I find out of the cyclone motor is compatible with the controllers you have mentioned? I enclosed photo with the specs.


IMG_2223.jpeg
IMG_2211.jpeg
 
chooks42 said:
Yes, I meant a BB torque sensor. Thanks for the links. It sounds like the Sempu would be my preference (using existing chain ring, measures torque on both legs). Comments?
I've only used the THUN (measures only one side) and the TDCM (ok, but lowish number of poles in cadence sensor--fixable by using external cadence sensor with more magnets and doing a bit of rewiring to the CA3 PAS connector ;) ).

The CA3 looks amazing! I think that will work. Do you know if the CA3 can be programmed to turn the lights on? Does the CA3 work on 16" wheels (i have a X5 greenspeed).
THe CA3 works on "anything"; you set the wheel size via the menus like any other bike computer. I highly recommend going thru the entire page here:
https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/cycle-analyst-3.html
and then the manual for it:
https://www.ebikes.ca/webapps/file_downloader/?file=CA3_Manual
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=571345#p571345
to see if anything jumps out at you as unusable. After a good read thru, then ask questions about whatever you don't understand. :)


I'm thinking of going 48v, if i did, i'd have to change controller anyway. I could just upgrade with another cyclone controller, or go with the KT one that you mentioned. What would be the advantage either way?
The KT (depending on model) is programmable with various versions of OSFW, which can be recompiled or rewritten to do various different things depending on what you need the controller to do. Whether that is more or less suitable than the cyclone, I don't know--you would need to look thru the thread for the OSFW (which is long because there is a lot to talk about ;) ), and then compare to whatever the cyclone does (I suspect it is a very very basic controller).

If you're going to use the CAv3 to do the torque sensing BB stuff, then a "dumb" (basic" controller is better than a smart one, so that you don't have the one fighting the other if they both have stuff they do that is similar (various limiting functions). But sometimes a smart controller is still better if there are other features you want to use.


The main thing you have to do before getting a controller is define exactly what you want the whole system to do for you.

What kind of power levels (voltage, current)?
What specific things does it need to do that your existing one does not? (a complete and exact list)
What specific things does your existing one do that it also still has to do? (a complete and exact list)
Etc.

Things you need it to do might include:
--operate directly from a torque-sensing BB (which model?)
--display info you need (make a complete and exact list--volts? speed? watts? torque? date/time? number of holes in tire? ;) )
-- control motor current (torque) instead of motor voltage (speed); this can give a much smoother application of power
--etc etc

If you can imagine something you want the system to do for you, list that in as much excruciating detail as possible. That way it can be either found in a controller or eliminated as a possiblity without custom design or firmware. Then all the things can be compiled together along with which controller can do them, and then you can decide which controller does enough of the things you want to do to pick one.



I really appreciate this- I'm on my own with this project. Most bikes stores can't help.

That's why this forum exists. :)
 
chooks42 said:
How could I find out of the cyclone motor is compatible with the controllers you have mentioned?
In general, it should work with "any" brushless controller; the better the controller design the more likely it is to work with it. But whether it works with a specific controller or not you might have to find out by experimentation.

If that motor has hall sensors, then using it with a sensored-capable controller may allow more precise control over it, but it could also be used with a sensorless controller (or one that does both). If it has no hall sensors, then it can only be used with a sensorless (or both) controller.
 
chooks42 said:
Thanks for weighing in. Good to get second opinion

Photo enclosed (the chain is rusty - just proof of concept at the moment). The mid-drive is a dual sprocket, the inside fixed sprocket goes to the nuvinci 360, the freewheel sprocket is the outer, which goes to the front 3-ring crank. There won't be a throttle, just a 'pedalec'.

How could I find out of the cyclone motor is compatible with the controllers you have mentioned? I enclosed photo with the specs.

OK, so you dont have a freewheel behind the chainring on your cranks, right? You can use whatever torque sensor you like, then. I can only comment on the ones I have used myself, but i think the Erider is the newest addition of affordable torquesensors right now. Measures both legs, doesnt matter which orientation it is mounted, wire out on the side, and I think it was 18 poles. Works fine so far for me. I had no other options, so I dont know how the other works :) If you get a CAv3 you should have a look at the torque sensors that is on Grin's site as well. Maybe they have "plug in" sensors compatible with the CA, so you dont need to solder like you would otherwise.

You could ask Grin customer support about the controller, but like amberwolf says you will only know for sure when you try it. If you have a controller that is working right now, I would honestly buy the CA3 with external shunt and just try it with your existing setup. You can always get another controller later (you can still use the same CA3, just need the right adapter). The CA3 takes input from torque sensor, thorttle, aux input (support level, mode, etc) and the shunt, processes it like you have tuned it to, and then connects to the old controller only with the throttle input. If you dont want a throttle that is fine, but I would recommend one for those difficult take offs. If it is for legal reasons, you can program it to only work below xx speed. Where I live it is only allowed below 6kmh, so its just a "walk mode" or help to get on the bike in steep climbs. It takes a bit of fiddling to get the wiring and settings right, but its worth it. You can do everything directly on the display, but for initial setup I would recommend getting the programming cable.
 
Great idea (walk mode). Let's say that i want a three position aux switch (as I think most people use only a few setting anyway), and I didn't want throttle, BUT I did want a walk mode; could I use a switch with a resistance, to trick the CA3 to thinking that the throttle was operating to give me that little boost on startup?
 
Amberwolf - I have done as you suggested. The CA3 documentation is great.

It looks like the CA3 will do everything i need to do. (Except, wouldn't in be good if the package could be complete, and it could turn a couple of lights on?). There are cheaper chinese 'computers', but I'm guessing that the quality is hit and miss.

On my setup i am looking for:

  • 48v to run my old cyclone motor (I never got it going properly before, so I don't really has a baseline). I found that the cyclone motor is 80kv, gear ratio 9.33:1 and 8 poles. Unsure if it has hall sensor. I have no idea why its marked as 480-1680 watts- see photo. Keen to use the upper limit the motor. I understand the Nuvincei will limit me here,
  • Im running it through a double sprocket to nuvinci 360 - one of them is a freewheel, so that I should be able to use regenerative braking.
  • Using a dumb controller (great suggestion). I have a Kelly, but I'm pretty sure that it a 36v, and might not work on the 48v. Any suggestions? for good quality dumb controllers?
  • BB Torque sensor. Definitely need this. Looks like the e-rider or sempu is the pick (sempu has the edge for me, as I can use my existing chainring and cranks Correct? I'm looking for it to work on a 2-3 chainring front derailer.
  • I think the 3 button Aux switch would work well (it seems most people use only 2 power modes on their daily ride, so even though I was keen on the digital aux buttons, it seems like programming a 'legal' mode, standard mode and full power sounds like it would work. Comments?
  • I don't need a throttle (and they are illegal here) , but i could (perhaps) use the throttle for a 'walk mode'. A button with a resistance that tricks the CA3 into thinking the throttle has been engaged. Possible?
  • Id like a brake switch. How easy is to incorporate a switch into hydraulic brakes? Remembering that my bike is a recumbent (2 switches needed)
  • I'll also need a DC to DC converter. 48-12v Any ideas there?
  • Any idea on where a CA3 could be mounted on a tadpole recumbent?

I'm letting the cyclone motor be my limit at the moment - perhaps thats a good idea for the moment. Unsure what performance that will give me. I could always upgrade the motor and rear hub at a later stage.

Looking forward to suggestions / comments
 
chooks42 said:
It looks like the CA3 will do everything i need to do. (Except, wouldn't in be good if the package could be complete, and it could turn a couple of lights on?). There are cheaper chinese 'computers', but I'm guessing that the quality is hit and miss.
There aren't any other commercially available devices that do what the CA3 does. :)

There are just plain wattmeters, and there are plain bicycle computers, and there might be bits and bobs that do some of the other things it does, but nothing that does all of them.

Regarding the light switch...why not just add a switch? Wouldn't that be easier than having to go into a menu to turn it on? Or have to hold a specific button for a certain amount of time, etc? Then you could leave the switch in the position you prefer (in case you like to always have the light come on, but sometimes still want to turn it off so wiring it direct wont' work).

I just use the lights toggle switch on a handlebar control unit that also has a "turn signal" switch (it also has a horn switch, but I use that for reverse on the trike).


As far as the CA3 being "complete"....well, I have a thread going over here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=110497
where I'm working on defining and eventually coding and schematicizing some little Arduino Nano bits and bobs to add or alter certain functionality of the CA (and eventually other stuff)...though first I have to learn how to do it, so a number of others have jumped in to help. ;)

  • 48v to run my old cyclone motor (I never got it going properly before, so I don't really has a baseline). I found that the cyclone motor is 80kv, gear ratio 9.33:1 and 8 poles. Unsure if it has hall sensor. I have no idea why its marked as 480-1680 watts- see photo. Keen to use the upper limit the motor. I understand the Nuvincei will limit me here,
The NV doesn't need to limit the power really, it needs to limit the input torque. You need to setup your gearing so that the NV will never get input above it's torque limit, or it will slip (I don't know how much slipping will damage it, but it does get damaged at some point).

I've never gotten mine setup on the bike or trike, but eventually I would really like to put it on the pedal drivetrain. Not sure that I'll ever use a motor on it, but I might if I could stay within the torque limits. Not sure that's possible with my particular needs.


  • Im running it through a double sprocket to nuvinci 360 - one of them is a freewheel, so that I should be able to use regenerative braking.
Regen braking only works if there is NO freewheel of any kind between wheel and motor.

To use regen on your middrive cyclone, you'd have to bolt the NV's motor input sprocket to the disc mount on the left side of the NV (you probably wouldn't want to force the regen back thru the NV gearing anyway, even if you could disable the FW), and not run the cyclone thru the pedal drivetrain at all.

Then you don't have any gearing changes you can make, so the cyclone is then only really "good" at it's job whenever you're using it at a speed where the gearing choice you made there lets it run well at the load it would be at.


  • Using a dumb controller (great suggestion). I have a Kelly, but I'm pretty sure that it a 36v, and might not work on the 48v. Any suggestions? for good quality dumb controllers?
You can check the Kelly page for your specific controller model number to see what it can do. Some have a wide voltage range, some don't.

There are a bajillion controllers out there, so whcih one to get depends on any specific features you need out of it to work well with your specific motor, and/or anything you'd like it to do that might be different from what others do. Some do regen, some don't. Some do proportional regen (variable braking), most don't. Some do sinewave, some do FOC (also sine but better control, but take a lot of setup to get working, but these aren't usualy "dumb"), some only do trapezoidal, some can do more than one, autoswitching or using a jumper. Some are sensorless only, some are sensored only, and some are either as needed. Some have PAS sensors, some don't have a place to plug one in, some require a PAS to work, some don't, some are throttle only, some don't even have a throttle input (just PAS), etc etc. Some have wide battery voltage ranges, some only work on one kind. Some have high current limits, some low, etc.

So to give more than a basic recommendation, first you would need to define exactly what the controller needs to do for you, and exactly what voltage range(s) you need it to work within, and what the battery current limit is (you probably don't know what the motor's phase current limits are, but if you do, that can help with some of them), etc. The more specific you are, the easier it is to narrow down to a few out of literally tens or hundreds of thousands (or more). ;)

If you're not picky, and don't mind the price, a fairly versatile generic controller is the Grinfineon from the same place that makes the CA3. Iv'e got one on one of the trike motors, and it does the job (it's not enough power/etc for my heavy-cargo-hauler needs, but that's not it's fault ;) ). One benefit is you can ask Grin Tech if they think it will work with your specific Cyclone motor, and they can probably answer. They make a lower power (smaller) and a higher power (larger) version. Neither is huge, nor really small. Average, as such things go. Nice thing is it can come precabled to plug right into your CA3. Might want to get adapter cables for the Cyclone at the same time (you might have to wire the cable to the Cyclone yourself, but it would give you a plug that the controller already has, probably the new waterproof ones if they've redone thse controllers like they ahve other things lately).


  • BB Torque sensor. Definitely need this. Looks like the e-rider or sempu is the pick (sempu has the edge for me, as I can use my existing chainring and cranks Correct? I'm looking for it to work on a 2-3 chainring front derailer.
If the Sempu is a regular square taper and that's what you have for cranks, then yes,you can use your crank/spider/rings on it. The TDCM and THUN I have are like that, and I just stuck a regular old bicycle crank/spider/triple-rings on there, for both the bike and the trike.

I've never used the Sempu or e-rider, but they should be no different than the ones I have for ease of use, etc., and are probably even easier and less picky.



  • I think the 3 button Aux switch would work well (it seems most people use only 2 power modes on their daily ride, so even though I was keen on the digital aux buttons,
You can use both a 3-speed switch on the aux, *and* the digiaux inc/dec buttons, AFAICR. They have some RTR (ready to roll) setups that are all prewired to do this, IIRC. And you can buy the handlebar controls from them already wired to plug into the CA3 directly. Always ask them which parts to do a specific job and they can then point you to the exact right one, to make sure you get what's needed without any "whoops...forgot something!" problems when you start putting it together. :lol:
it seems like programming a 'legal' mode, standard mode and full power sounds like it would work. Comments?
I kind of have that sort of thing on mine, but I use the 3speed aux switch as a 5mph, 10mph, and 20mph limiter. 5mph for parking lots, etc., 10mph for the shared bike paths when there's people around me walking, jogging, other bikes, etc., and 20mph for when i'm on the roads. I am almost never on bike paths these days, as I don't go on long cruising rides or junk-hunting exploration trips or much of anything like that, partly cuz of the covid thing, and partly cuz I'm just not up to it nowadays.

  • I don't need a throttle (and they are illegal here) , but i could (perhaps) use the throttle for a 'walk mode'. A button with a resistance that tricks the CA3 into thinking the throttle has been engaged. Possible?
The easiest way to set that up is to use either a single-button handlebar module that is in a convenient spot for you to reach when walking the trike around, or the horn (or other momentary) button on a handlebar control cluster, and wire in a little 5k to 10kohm multiturn pot to the button, with the throttle wire from the CA connected to that pot. 5V to one end, signal to the middle, ground to the other. Set the pot in the middle, and make sure your motor wheel is the one with the speed sensor on it, and that it's off the ground. Push the button, and turn the pot until the wheelspeed is about where you want it (perhaps a touch higher). Then test this onground. If it's too slow or fast, adjust till it's just right. The pot can be installed inside the siwtch body if it's small enough and there's enough room, or it can be covered in heatshrink and siliconed to the side of it, or even inside the body of the CA3, etc. Or the wiring loom...whereever it fits.

You can also adjust hte CA3 itself for different throttle voltage ranges and responsiveness, so it responds instnatly or very slowly, etc.




  • Id like a brake switch. How easy is to incorporate a switch into hydraulic brakes? Remembering that my bike is a recumbent (2 switches needed)

There are a number of threads about hydraulic ebrake switches and various DIY ebrake switches; if you want to go that route I'll find a search taht turns up as many as possible. One of the relatively easy ways is a magnet and a NC reed or hall switch glued to lever and housing; that gets used a lot. Grin Tech used to sell a prebuilt version of this, cant' recall the name. If they still have it, that's an easy way.



  • I'll also need a DC to DC converter. 48-12v Any ideas there?
Lots of those. You'd need to know how much current it has to provide to the 12v, and whether that is exactly 12v or if it's "automotive 12v", which is actually about 13.6v. Depends on what you're running. Also if there is any surge current on devices (like incandescent bulbs, which take a fairly massive surge of current when they turn on, and DC-DCs have to be rated for the *peak* current they'll see, or you may blow them up). You also need to know the maximum voltage range it will have to accept--meaning if you plan to later have regen braking, what's the max voltage that could generate? Safe enough to get one with a much wider range than you think you need, so it doesn't get damaged by too high a voltage, and it doesn't shutdown before your battery runs out. ;)


  • Any idea on where a CA3 could be mounted on a tadpole recumbent?
Most common is on the stub above the cranks, if you have that. Some use a "bullhorn" handlebar extension or similar and put it on one side, if you have USS. If you have OSS then you can put it right on the bars like usual if it's not blocking your view of the road.

You'd need to show us your "cockpit" from your POV as rider, and whatever is in your field of view (if you want to look at the screen while riding), so we can then figure out what might be used to put it there.
 
Playing around with sensors, I have now tried the ERider T9 and the Sempu T2. I'm using a Cycle Analyst 3 as my controller. I like the feel of the T9 better. The T2 seems to get me assist at times when I don't want it. That is probably due to the way it senses torque. Just the weight of my feet hanging from the pedals causes some change.

That said, I'd like a double or triple crankset on the T9, but the way it works you can't use a standard all-in-one crankset. Does anybody know of a 130 BCD triple chainring set without the attached crank?
 
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