Cycle Analyst PAS settings - speed target possible?

I am considering chaining my "Mk1" ebike conversion, and am looking at Cycle Analyst V3 (plus a matched controller) as an option. However, I like the way my current PAS works, and would like to keep it that way after conversion.

My current controller (from a Dillenger UK Street Legal kit) appears to operate on a target speed approach. You can select a level of Pedal Assist (1-9), and this seems to set a target speed based on your max speed preset. Thus, if I select assist level 6, that seems to imply around 16.5mph power cut off with a full battery for me, dropping to around 15mph when battery is close to depleted.
When the gradient kicks up, the bike speed drops, and the power provided by the controller goes up, until it reaches the maximum available (inside the controller 15A max current limit). I am measuring this with a logging gizmo I built, and have plugged in between the battery and the controller.
This works well round here, where there are many sharp ascents that require (for me) full power assist available, and then just enough power to maintain around 15mph when things get easier.

Looking at the documentation for the Cycle Analyst:
https://www.ebikes.ca/pub/media/downloadable/documents/CycleAnalyst_V31_Web.pdf

It says that it offers three modes of PAS:
1) Basic (Pwr): In this mode, the CA3 attempts to produce a constant power
output in watts when pedaling is detected

2) Basic (ThO): This is a somewhat different approach to PAS where the
CA3's throttle output voltage is held constant

3) Torque: This mode is only available if a torque sensor is configured in the
PAS device setup.

I have discounted option 3 since I do not want (or have) a torque sensor.

By my reading, options 1 or 2 do not provide what I currently have. It appears that with the Cycle Analyst, if I want the power to increase as my speed reduces, I would have to use an Auxiliary switch to change the setting. This is really not a pleasant option to live with, compared to what I currently have.

Of course, the documentation does not describe the behaviour of option 2 when the speed drops below that implied by the fixed throttle setting.

What I am hoping is that someone on this forum has got a Cycle Analyst, and experiences the same sort of PAS as I do - in which case some reassurance that it will still be possible should I get a Cycle Analyst would be appreciated.

Many thanks.

(PS - I live in the UK, and don't break the law - so I adhere to UK e-bike regulations.)

Yes, you can set a max speed, and the CA will limit power when you reach that speed.

Then you can set the aux buttons to adjust the power, so you can choose how powerful the PAS will be up to that speed.

Or you can set a given pas power level, and use the aux buttons to adjust the max speed.

Or you could have up to 3 different presets with different top speds, and then use the aux buttons inside each preset to adjust power level. This is what I use so I can stay legal when Im not going offroad. My bikes always starts up with max 6kmh throttle only and max 25kmh with pas.

There are some tuning nescessary to make it work like you wish, but with a little work the CA can cover most of the needs for us DIYers.

HrKlev said:

Yes, you can set a max speed, and the CA will limit power when you reach that speed.

Then you can set the aux buttons to adjust the power, so you can choose how powerful the PAS will be up to that speed.

Or you can set a given pas power level, and use the aux buttons to adjust the max speed.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the response. However, neither of those options appear to be what I am looking for, unless I misread of course.

So, if I set an assist level, is that the max speed? Can this be adjusted up/down through the aux buttons? Will I get full power when well below that speed, and graduated less power as I approach it?

Really, all I want is for the PAS to get to the maximum power available when I go up a hill, without having to press any buttons. I'm not getting that this is possible from the documentation, or, unfortunately the explanation you gave. Sorry if I'm being thick.

Is your bike a single speed, or do you ever shift when going up hill?

E-HP said:

Is your bike a single speed, or do you ever shift when going up hill?

Click to expand...

It is triple chain ring 9 speed cassette. What I don't want is PAS that depends on how I am peddling!

pickworthi said:

E-HP said:

Is your bike a single speed, or do you ever shift when going up hill?

Click to expand...

It is triple chain ring 9 speed cassette. What I don't want is PAS that depends on how I am peddling!

Click to expand...

I guess I'll assume you don't shift when going up hill.

My hills are steep, so I do shift when going up hill, so this won't work for you. But, since I shift when I hit anything more than 10% grade, I use the PAS scaling feature so that when I downshift and cadence naturally increases, so does my power. When the roadway flattens and I shift up, the assist decreases, due to my lower cadence. Feels natural to me, but again, only would work for you if you were willing to consider alternatives.

For what you want, I turn off PAS and set my cruise control and pedal as much or as little as I want and the controller handles adding more or less power, up to a pretty decent grade. I'm pretty sure one of HrKlev's solutions can be adapted to do what you want though.

pickworthi said:

HrKlev said:

Yes, you can set a max speed, and the CA will limit power when you reach that speed.

Then you can set the aux buttons to adjust the power, so you can choose how powerful the PAS will be up to that speed.

Or you can set a given pas power level, and use the aux buttons to adjust the max speed.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the response. However, neither of those options appear to be what I am looking for, unless I misread of course.

So, if I set an assist level, is that the max speed? Can this be adjusted up/down through the aux buttons? Will I get full power when well below that speed, and graduated less power as I approach it?

Really, all I want is for the PAS to get to the maximum power available when I go up a hill, without having to press any buttons. I'm not getting that this is possible from the documentation, or, unfortunately the explanation you gave. Sorry if I'm being thick.

Click to expand...

You can use one of the presets and set a max speed of, say 25kmh, and pas level to the max your system handles, lets say 1500w. Then you will get max power until 25kmh is reached, and if you hit a hill, it will provide up to 1500w to try to keep that speed. So thar would do what you are asking for.

Then if you want to have some adjustability, you can choose if the aux buttons changes the max speed, or max PAS, or a few other options.

Then you can add in several presets, cruise control, etc, to have it just the way you like. Keep in mind there is some tuning nescessary, and with all the options that is now available, you will probably keep messing with it for a long time to get it "perfect for you".

E-HP said:

I guess I'll assume you don't shift when going up hill.

My hills are steep, so I do shift when going up hill, so this won't work for you. But, since I shift when I hit anything more than 10% grade, I use the PAS scaling feature so that when I downshift and cadence naturally increases, so does my power. When the roadway flattens and I shift up, the assist decreases, due to my lower cadence. Feels natural to me, but again, only would work for you if you were willing to consider alternatives.

Click to expand...

I'm one of those high cadence types, so average cadence for a ride would be 80 - 90 RPM, regardless of hill gradient. Hence desire not to have PAS depend on how I pedal. One hill here is 15% plus for about half a mile, and at some point I'll go "sod it - I need a rest", and drop cadence to get some breath back. Last thing I want is a controller going "well I'll take a break as well" at that point!

HrKlev said:

You can use one of the presets and set a max speed of, say 25kmh, and pas level to the max your system handles, lets say 1500w. Then you will get max power until 25kmh is reached, and if you hit a hill, it will provide up to 1500w to try to keep that speed. So thar would do what you are asking for.

Then if you want to have some adjustability, you can choose if the aux buttons changes the max speed, or max PAS, or a few other options.

Then you can add in several presets, cruise control, etc, to have it just the way you like. Keep in mind there is some tuning nescessary, and with all the options that is now available, you will probably keep messing with it for a long time to get it "perfect for you".

Click to expand...

Many thanks, that is a lot clearer, and looks like what I need.

One last clarification if I may please:
If I set max speed to 15mph (sorry, imperial is ingrained in my old brain) and max power to 550W, from what you say when I'm climbing at 5mph I'll get the benefit of 550W. When I then start to level off, would I get a proportionally lower power as the speed increases? Are there parameters that govern how the power curve is managed, i.e. at which points it will start to ramp down and at what rate?

I'm assuming it's not just a very expensive switch (i.e. full power to nothing at cut off).

pickworthi said:

HrKlev said:

You can use one of the presets and set a max speed of, say 25kmh, and pas level to the max your system handles, lets say 1500w. Then you will get max power until 25kmh is reached, and if you hit a hill, it will provide up to 1500w to try to keep that speed. So thar would do what you are asking for.

Then if you want to have some adjustability, you can choose if the aux buttons changes the max speed, or max PAS, or a few other options.

Then you can add in several presets, cruise control, etc, to have it just the way you like. Keep in mind there is some tuning nescessary, and with all the options that is now available, you will probably keep messing with it for a long time to get it "perfect for you".

Click to expand...

Many thanks, that is a lot clearer, and looks like what I need.

One last clarification if I may please:
If I set max speed to 15mph (sorry, imperial is ingrained in my old brain) and max power to 550W, from what you say when I'm climbing at 5mph I'll get the benefit of 550W. When I then start to level off, would I get a proportionally lower power as the speed increases? Are there parameters that govern how the power curve is managed, i.e. at which points it will start to ramp down and at what rate?

I'm assuming it's not just a very expensive switch (i.e. full power to nothing at cut off).

Click to expand...

Yes, that is correct (just be beware of the heat created from low efficiency at those speeds if it is a hub motor). The speed limitation is a full blown PID controller, so you can set it up just as you like with all the 3 parameters (set the gain for power limiting and throttle output ramping before you tune the PID controller so you dont mess up what you already have tuned and have to restart). I recommend you buy some extra wheel magnets. One pulse per revolution of the wheel is not easy to work with. Or if you are using a hub motor use one of the hall sensors for speed input.

Many thanks, that helps me a lot.

Understand the low speed issue with the hub motor. It has hall sensors, and that is the way it works with the Dillenger controller. I don't really have a choice about the speed up that hill

This is a plot from my data gathering gizmo of what is happening as I go up a local hill called Streatly hill (the one with the sustained 15% gradient). It was sunny today so I thought I'd go and gather some data



The x-axis is in seconds. From what I felt while riding, and confirmed by the data, when my speed got down to 5mph the amps being drawn from the battery fell. That is shown in the data by the period from around 112 seconds to 336 seconds. I got as slow as 4.5mph.

I am assuming that this is a limit created by the low speed of the motor.

Given that this is just a slightly more extreme example of the gradients I face on any ride, and that I don't want assistance beyond around 16mph (approx 25kph - street legal ) it looks to me like I have to add finding a hub motor with lower gearing (i.e. more revolutions of motor per revolution of front wheel).

The cycle Analyst also looks like a dead cert to me now - there are a bunch of things that I would like to adjust away from the "black box" settings of the Dillenger controller.

I feel I have to say that none of this means that I think the Dillenger kit was bad in any way. I've put over 7,000 miles on it, and I have no complaints at all. Its just that this forum has opened my eyes to the wider possibilities that exist if one ventures beyond a turn key approach. Plus I like fiddling.

The winter project is growing nicely

I'm thinking of upgrading my Dillenger controller to a different one also - were you able to make this change? how was it?

ampflp said:

I'm thinking of upgrading my Dillenger controller to a different one also - were you able to make this change? how was it?

Click to expand...

I made the change, and after a period of frustration I arrived at settings that are way better than the Dillenger controller could provide, so yes, very pleased with the CA3 - BaseRunner combination.

I posted a thread on my journey to the settings that work, it's here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=112972

Grin actually confirmed to me that, for the Baserunner controller, the default CA PID settings should be increased to 2 to 3 times (that's all three settings). Three times is where I ended up.

thanks for the response - I have a Dillenger kit which I'm happy with but would like to get an upgraded controller that will provide 'constant power' - my understanding of the terms is
constant power = at a specific PAS setting, the motor will put out constant power which is added to my own output.
constant throttle (what I believe Dillenger has) at a specific PAS setting, the motor will put out power required to get to a specific speed (on the flat ground, for example), if I add effort to increase the speed, the motor stops contributing.

Thoughts, ideas, - correction of terms - welcome!

ampflp said:

thanks for the response - I have a Dillenger kit which I'm happy with but would like to get an upgraded controller that will provide 'constant power' - my understanding of the terms is
constant power = at a specific PAS setting, the motor will put out constant power which is added to my own output.
constant throttle (what I believe Dillenger has) at a specific PAS setting, the motor will put out power required to get to a specific speed (on the flat ground, for example), if I add effort to increase the speed, the motor stops contributing.

Thoughts, ideas, - correction of terms - welcome!

Click to expand...

Dillenger doesn't make anything, they resell. The contoller that comes with their hub based kits is a KT controller, usually with an LCD3 display. The PAS on KT controllers is desireable to many, but it's not speed based. It's a power based PAS, but on flat ground, that power equates to a certain speed. People like the KT PAS, and I liked it a lot when I used the KT. They refer to it as "torque simulation". Do you have a picture of the controller label?

Their kits frequently come with this display: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0363/4551/2068/files/en_KT-LCD3.pdf?v=1594164422