Skip scoot controller help

bj97301

100 mW
Joined
Mar 19, 2020
Messages
39
A customer purchased a truckload of these skip scooters(called skip aka Hellbiz to verify purchase already). We are hoping to get em back on the road without replacing the controllers. Has anyone seen this before? Can you point me in the right direction with regards to what wires need to be connected to get the controller to turn on? Otherwise, I’ll be doing brute force and it’ll be a controller massacre. 

Power to the controller is solved(big red and black wires). The next step is to turn it on. Usually controllers take battery positive and run it to a switch then back to the controller to turn it on. I need to find the wire to potentially run the bat pos back to so that it will turn on the controller.

The old components used a remote turn on mechanism. I was not able to get the scooter to turn on that way without the remote api.
 

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EDITED since now there are pics attached that make much of my original reply (left below the ************ line just in case) I'd started when this was first posted irrelevant. ;)

Does the controller have 5v present anywhere, when just powered on? If so, that means it's already "on", just disabled until it receives the app-control "ok" signal.

The chip on the back corner of teh board is a CAN tranceiver.
https://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/tcan1042h
You don't show where the cable from that corner goes, but I'd guess a display, and potentially the app communications module. If the last is true, that means there probably isn't a simple on/off control and it's likely you'll have to replace the controller (and any display) to make these work. Same if the app comm device is actually that largest chip in the controller (though I don't see a BT antenna trace on there, it could be under some of the other potting, or be an external antenna coming in via one of those wire sets).

It's likely the smaller chip on there, toward the middle of the controller board, still partly under potting, is the actual motor control MCU, as it doesn't take something as complex as the large fully-exposed one to do just that work.


If the motor control *is* a separate MCU, then the app-control MCU may well simply hold it in Reset, or otherwise use a simple enable/disable line to it. If this is the case, it would be relatively easy to defeat the app-control setup, and just permanently enable it. If the number on the MC MCU is visible, you could look it up and find it's pinout, and trace the Reset line from it--if that goes to the other MCU, try just cutting the trace and putting a 1kohm resistor from that trace to 5v. That would enable the MC MCU, and if nothing else is connected to the App MCU from it it would then "just work", in theory. ;)


I'd guess the throttle and any ebrake also comes in via that connector, but probably as an analog signal (since CANBUS doesn't take nearly as many wires as are in that connector).





*******************************************************************************************
(this part was typed up before the pics were attached to the first post, so it may be irrelevant)

Is the scoot you're referring to one of the various types shown in this image search?
https://www.google.com/search?q=skip+scooters+Helbiz&tbm=isch

There's a few threads about other "rental" scooters/bikes/etc trying to use them "as-is", but few of the people doing it ever did much testing or came back to give results, etc., so most of them aren't much use.

So some questions:

What is the specific layout of the electronics in the ones you have? Meaning, is it just a battery, a controller, and a throttle, besides the motor? Or are there any other devices in the wiring, such as a separate BT or other wifi module that talks to the app on a phone?

If there are other devices, then it's likely the device for the app comm has a simple switch output to engage the controller's "ignition" (KSI) input. Finding that output and bypassing it with a jumper or a keyswitch if desired would then turn it on.

It may instead actually communicate with the controller to enable it. If this is the case, then unless you can "record" the output of the device from a working setup connected to the app to enable it, it's probably going to require replacing the controllers to get them working.

If the controllers are not potted, you can open one up to trace out the wiring within it; most of the ones with a simple KSI input have a thin wire from the main battery input and another from the input of the low-voltage-power-supply LVPS, which you'd short together to get power to the LVPS to turn the controller on.

If the controller isnt' that straightforward, but instead has a module inside it that does the app comms (or talks to that module) that does have this connection, you may be able to bypass it inside the controller that way.



bj97301 said:
A customer purchased a truckload of these skip scooters(called skip aka Hellbiz to verify purchase already). We are hoping to get em back on the road without replacing the controllers. Has anyone seen this before? Can you point me in the right direction with regards to what wires need to be connected to get the controller to turn on? Otherwise, I’ll be doing brute force and it’ll be a controller massacre. 

Power to the controller is solved(big red and black wires). The next step is to turn it on. Usually controllers take battery positive and run it to a switch then back to the controller to turn it on. I need to find the wire to potentially run the bat pos back to so that it will turn on the controller.

The old components used a remote turn on mechanism. I was not able to get the scooter to turn on that way without the remote api.
 
Wow you rock. Thank you very much for the detailed reply. The 5v throttle is present. I was able to get the motor to unlock by giving one of the pins bat pos but the other pins don’t seem to do anything. I think your right about needing an ok signal somewhere. If I need to un pot the other 50 scoot controllers it’s not worth it. Easier to replace the controller at that rate. Was hoping to just connect a wire or two 😢
 
Sorry about the picture thing. I don’t use the forum too much.
 
No problem--glad you attached them though, as it helped a lot with figuring out what little I could. :)

Without more info on how this particular system works (which you'd have to figure out, as it's unlikely info to be available anywhere else), the only way I can imagine making those controllers work without unpotting them is to do as noted in the old version of my post, and "record" the data on the CANBUS from the app controller (if it's external) when it's activated by the app, and "play it back" from a little MCU (Nano, etc) at power on.

But it's probably easier (if not cheaper) to replace the controller/display set on each scooter with a new one. It would also let you bypass the 25km/h speed limit of the OEM system, if that is important to you (or the client).


bj97301 said:
Wow you rock. Thank you very much for the detailed reply. The 5v throttle is present. I was able to get the motor to unlock by giving one of the pins bat pos but the other pins don’t seem to do anything. I think your right about needing an ok signal somewhere. If I need to un pot the other 50 scoot controllers it’s not worth it. Easier to replace the controller at that rate. Was hoping to just connect a wire or two 😢
 
Your totally right. I’ll look into a new controller. Got any recommendations for something with similar connectors? Trying to minimize manual labor costs.

amberwolf said:
No problem--glad you attached them though, as it helped a lot with figuring out what little I could. :)

Without more info on how this particular system works (which you'd have to figure out, as it's unlikely info to be available anywhere else), the only way I can imagine making those controllers work without unpotting them is to do as noted in the old version of my post, and "record" the data on the CANBUS from the app controller (if it's external) when it's activated by the app, and "play it back" from a little MCU (Nano, etc) at power on.

But it's probably easier (if not cheaper) to replace the controller/display set on each scooter with a new one. It would also let you bypass the 25km/h speed limit of the OEM system, if that is important to you (or the client).


bj97301 said:
Wow you rock. Thank you very much for the detailed reply. The 5v throttle is present. I was able to get the motor to unlock by giving one of the pins bat pos but the other pins don’t seem to do anything. I think your right about needing an ok signal somewhere. If I need to un pot the other 50 scoot controllers it’s not worth it. Easier to replace the controller at that rate. Was hoping to just connect a wire or two 😢
 
Depends on what connectors it has, and their pins. Can't see this in any of your pics (just the housings). ;) Also depends on if they are wired in a standard way, which is not guaranteed.

It is likely that whatever plugs into that big corner jack near the CANBUS chip isn't going to stay on the scooter anyway, so you probalby don't need to match it. If there are things (throttle, ebrake) that reach the controller via that cable, you're probably going to have to just retain the bracket with the plugs and cabling it already has, and cut that cable at the controller case, then splice just the wires you need from it to the relevant controller plugs.

You may have to do the same with the others, as well, depending on their wiring, pins, etc., and so it might be just as easy to get controllers that don't have any particular connector set on them. (however, determining wiring for standardized connectors may well be easier :lol: ).


If they are standard Higo / Julet types, and they're all wired in a standard way, then there's a fair number of controllers out there with those. But I would first look at controller *behavior* and specifications to make sure you get ones that will do the things you need it do, the way you want it to do them.

For instance, does this need a speed limit? Programmability? (if so, what things does it have to be able to change?) Display? (if so, what does it have to show?) Does it need regen braking? (if so, can it just be on/off, or does it need to be variable like mechanical braking is?). Does it need "soft start" (ramping up of throttle) or "instant start" where there is no delay between throttle input and motor response? Etc.

There is a wide variety of controllers out there, each with it's own set of behaviors (most of which don't say how they behave so you'd actually have to test them to find out!) and features (most of them dont' list all their features, either, making this even harder).

The "simplest" way to get predictability and probalby the features you need is getting display/controller sets like the KT Kunteng, which are programmable to various degrees (and for which opensource firmware OSFW also exists in case you need features the OEM versions don't have). There are other sets like them, too.

bj97301 said:
Your totally right. I’ll look into a new controller. Got any recommendations for something with similar connectors? Trying to minimize manual labor costs.
 
You are amazing for taking the time to reply with such good information 😍.

I tested with a couple of my julet connectors but it seems like they are proprietary. I think what I’ll do is just get a generic cheap-o controller then cut the plugs from the old controller and move em over to the new controller. The right way with solder and heat shrink 😉. Will hopefully last many years and keep it out of the landfill for at least a bit.

amberwolf said:
Depends on what connectors it has, and their pins. Can't see this in any of your pics (just the housings). ;) Also depends on if they are wired in a standard way, which is not guaranteed.

It is likely that whatever plugs into that big corner jack near the CANBUS chip isn't going to stay on the scooter anyway, so you probalby don't need to match it. If there are things (throttle, ebrake) that reach the controller via that cable, you're probably going to have to just retain the bracket with the plugs and cabling it already has, and cut that cable at the controller case, then splice just the wires you need from it to the relevant controller plugs.

You may have to do the same with the others, as well, depending on their wiring, pins, etc., and so it might be just as easy to get controllers that don't have any particular connector set on them. (however, determining wiring for standardized connectors may well be easier :lol: ).


If they are standard Higo / Julet types, and they're all wired in a standard way, then there's a fair number of controllers out there with those. But I would first look at controller *behavior* and specifications to make sure you get ones that will do the things you need it do, the way you want it to do them.

For instance, does this need a speed limit? Programmability? (if so, what things does it have to be able to change?) Display? (if so, what does it have to show?) Does it need regen braking? (if so, can it just be on/off, or does it need to be variable like mechanical braking is?). Does it need "soft start" (ramping up of throttle) or "instant start" where there is no delay between throttle input and motor response? Etc.

There is a wide variety of controllers out there, each with it's own set of behaviors (most of which don't say how they behave so you'd actually have to test them to find out!) and features (most of them dont' list all their features, either, making this even harder).

The "simplest" way to get predictability and probalby the features you need is getting display/controller sets like the KT Kunteng, which are programmable to various degrees (and for which opensource firmware OSFW also exists in case you need features the OEM versions don't have). There are other sets like them, too.

bj97301 said:
Your totally right. I’ll look into a new controller. Got any recommendations for something with similar connectors? Trying to minimize manual labor costs.
 
You're welcome. :) I like to help wherever I can (often enough, I can't).

The plan sounds like a good one. Keep us updated with the eventual solution, then anyone else needing to do the same thing (it's getting more common) can follow your footsteps. :)


bj97301 said:
You are amazing for taking the time to reply with such good information 😍.

I tested with a couple of my julet connectors but it seems like they are proprietary. I think what I’ll do is just get a generic cheap-o controller then cut the plugs from the old controller and move em over to the new controller. The right way with solder and heat shrink 😉. Will hopefully last many years and keep it out of the landfill for at least a bit.
 
Good idea. Will do. Gonna give this one a try:

Motor Brushless Controller, Electric Brushless Controller 48V 500W Brushless Motor Sine Wave Controller for Electric Bicycle Scooter https://a.co/d/eXFU91V
 
Just make sure you get the brushless version; their ad text says it's a brushed controller in at least one place, brushless in others, pictures appear to be brushless, but you never know.

Another consideration: Do the motors you need to run have hall sensors? If not, you need sensorless controllers. Some that have hall connectors can also run sensorless, but many can't. If it doesn't say, assume it can't. I'd assume this one can't, because this answer to a question if it could doesn't make sense:
Yes it will work just hook up the positive (red wire) and the negative (black wire) from the hall sensor group along with the 3 phase wires and use the self learning function.
If you hook up the red and black hall wires from the controller (presumably to each other, but same if you hook them to the phase wires) it'll blow up the 5v regulator inside the controller and it won't work with any kind of motor ever. ;)


This controller does not have a display; if you need one you should get a kit that includes the display (it's unlikely you'll get separately purchased items to work together--can be done if they are compatible, but not otherwise...the catch is figuring out which would be compatible, hence the reason for getting kits. ;) ).



bj97301 said:
Gonna give this one a try:

Motor Brushless Controller, Electric Brushless Controller 48V 500W Brushless Motor Sine Wave Controller for Electric Bicycle Scooter https://a.co/d/eXFU91V
 
Good points. I think it’ll work out and be exactly as ok to crappy as it seems 😂. I’ll be sure to post an update soon. Shipment is running late.
 
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