X5 electric motorcycle?

Just wondering what peoples thoughts were about the potential for a Crystalyte x5 hub motor in an electric motorcycle. I'm talking about a conversion of an ICE powered motorcycle, not a super beefed up bicycle of some kind.

Joshua Goldberg claims that you can order a Crystalye with any diameter axle you want, so say an axle of between 19-25mm (which is a good range for average sizes of motorcycle rear wheels), would that be possible? Then there's the spoke flanges, they'd have to be custom drilled because motorcycle spokes are much, much larger than bicycle spokes. There might not be enough material in the flange.

Also, would it have enough grunt? For my own (currently stalled due to lack of motivation) conversion, I'm aiming for 48V and about 50Ah because that's what I can reasonably carry on the motorcycle with affordable batteries that are capable of high current discharge with little voltage sag. Yep, SLA. So maybe 48V @ 100A / 150A peak. Is there such a controller available from Crystalyte?

Using the simulator I got a peak of about 1200W with a 5304 and a 35A controller, torque was pretty good too. Using a 20" wheel (motorcycle wheels are measured differently than bicycle wheels, but 20" is closer than 16") speed topped out at about 50kph but from the torque curve it looked like 30 is more realistic. If you couldn't pick the speed up it's not much good. A 5302 looks promising, but I have no experience with any Crystalyte motors so I don't really know what's a good one to pick.

Hub motors aren't my first choice as the EVT has one, and their limitations become apparent fairly quickly, but if you could just pour the amps in with no ill effects (like overheating on the brushed EVT motor) then maybe a brushless hub motor like the Crystalyte could be good? It would certainly make for a very simple conversion. Get the motor with a disc brake adaptor, lace up a wheel, mount batteries and controller, bolt wheel in (might have to modify swinging arm as motorcycle axles slide out of the wheel normally) and off you go.

Thoughts?

I think the way to go ( And i will be getting a few on my next order) .. is an X5 in a rim.. no spokes.. picture a rim instead of a spoke flange and a tire that mounts directly to it. Crystalyte does do this !

An X5302 in this small a diameter wheel, would have a fair amount of torque, at 48v 40amps using 12ah SLA's, in a 20" rim, i got up to 40 MPH at 1500 w . the voltage sag quickly became a factor ( 12ah sla's don't like 38.6 amps for very long !!! )

With 40 ah worth of lithium or so, you would have a lightweight, long range ( well.. fairly long range ! :lol: ) scooter !

I've wondered that myself. If hub motors are such a great idea then why don't we see them on the motorcycles that people actually want to race?

My "guess" is that the highest quality motors so far have been like the Etek and PMG132 and so people have gone with them "because they are there". Plus you have the added advantage that if you want to gear the bike up a tooth for a certain track you can do it easily.

At 95% efficiency or better the "chain" is not going to go out of style any time soon. Also, all that extra weight in the hub is "unsprung weight" which for people serious about racing is a MAJOR no-no.

It might be that hub motors are mostly a matter of lower maintenance and not really a "performance" feature.

The peak power of a PMG132 is 13,500 Watts or 18 hp, but in comparision the 1-2 hp hub motor might not even be able to push a HEAVY motorcycle up a 5% slope... (you need to be obsessed with weight for these little micro sized motors... which makes it kind of fun)

safe said:

It might be that hub motors are mostly a matter of lower maintenance and not really a "performance" feature...

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I think you are correct about this.. However, personally, i think Hub motors can be made to perform quite well if used in proper combinations.

I bet i can swap a hub motor in a frame, as fast as you can remove a chain, change a sproket,, and remount the chain. And my hands will still be clean ! :wink:

Quote " Do you have a million dollars to spend on R & D to compete? "

I dream of a day ! 8) That would be so cool !

--

I'd like to see a larger diameter but thinner hub motor made, BionX is on the right track.. but $$$$

Currently available hub motors are designed for bicycle use in general, the X5 is pushing the limits, bigger would not stay under the radar of the law without being frowned upon.

The tidal force motor had potential to be a motorcycle motor with the right controller and batteries.. unfortunately..

A hub motor adds a lot of unsprung weight, so you won't see them on many racing machines.
I don't know anybody who has tried pushing the amps on a X5. Bet it would be fun with my 90 amp controller, but it might melt wires.
There's always class H high temperature insulation.

It might work better at 72v with slightly smaller batteries.

in comparision the 1-2 hp hub motor might not even be able to push a HEAVY motorcycle up a 5% slope..

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The x5 is good for a continuous 5,000 watts which is 7 hp. If the rest of the bike is light, like 120 lbs or less, 7hp should make for a spirited ride, though certainly not competitive with the Perms and ETEKS -- partly because it's brushless.

Interesting discussion.

Your idea with the wheel rim is good too Buzzz, that's how the EVT motor is done. Of course it's only a 10" wheel (about 14" by the time you stick a tyre on there). Most motorcycle rear wheel are 17" (rim diameter), I don't know how big an X5 is, so I don't know how viable bolting it directly to a rim that size would be. I suppose where there's a will...

One disadvantage of the direct to rim idea is heat transferrance to the tyre. I've noticed this on my EVT as the motor can get quite hot and it goes straight to the rim which will effect tyre pressures. I should measure the cold/hot difference one day to see if it's potentially dangerous or not. I would guess not, or EVT would have had their assests sued off before now.

Your idea with the wheel rim is good too Buzzz, that's how the EVT motor is done. Of course it's only a 10" wheel (about 14" by the time you stick a tyre on there). Most motorcycle rear wheel are 17" (rim diameter), I don't know how big an X5 is, so I don't know how viable bolting it directly to a rim that size would be. I suppose where there's a will...

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There's the 5304 being sold with a 12" tube and tire:
http://www.poweridestore.com/Scooter-Hub-Motors/12-Scooter-Motor

xyster said:

There's the 5304 being sold with a 12" tube and tire:
http://www.poweridestore.com/Scooter-Hub-Motors/12-Scooter-Motor

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I was all excited until I read this: "This motor will reach 20 mph." My EVT is good for a steady 30mph on 48V. To compete with the EVT brushed motor, the Crystalyte needs to be hooked up to a 120A (peak, IIRC 70A continuous) controller. Interesting all the same though.

I was all excited until I read this: "This motor will reach 20 mph."

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At what voltage though?

Let's see, my 5304 happens to be in a wheel of twice the diameter. It's top speed is 44mph. So in a 12", the 5304 will do at least half the speed at the same voltage... or 22mph@~80 volts (probably more because wind resistance is my bike's top speed limiting factor, else it'd reach about 50mph: http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/ )

So it looks like the poweridestore's claim of 20mph top speed is based on 72 volts.

So at 120 volts, the 5304/12" should go at least:
120volts/80volts = X/22mph;
3/2 = X/22mph
X = 33mph

33mph.

Now you just need a suitable 120 VDC source!

xyster said:

Now you just need a suitable 120 VDC source!

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Eggzackery. My scooter is lugging 4 13.8kg (30.4lbs for you you non-metricated folks) SLA batteries which makes it nearly twice the weight of an equivalent 50cc ICE scooter. So I wouldn't want to add any more (ok, I do want to add one more for 60V). Lead is all I can afford, particularly in 50Ah quantities, so unfortunately that would be a slow mofo scoot with an x5 in it.