Q128 201rpm Motor Not Enough Power.

I have several bikes all with different motors. My favourite is my Q100, which at 17amps has speed and enough power to get me up fairly steep hills without pedalling, and it's extremely smooth and free-running. My other bikes have mainly Bafang BPM motors, which have more climbing power and are very unstressed the way I ride. I liked the Q100 so much that I thought I'd try the Q128, which is bigger and heavier, so I expected a corresponding increase in power.

I'm using a 10aH headway battery rated at 5C and showing 22amps on my watt-meter, but going up our test hill, it quickly slows down, and I have to pedal moderately to get to the top. My 250w Bafang at 20 amps can make it up without pedalling and I only need light pedalling with my Q100. The Q128 is rated at 400-500w! Is it a bad motor or is something wrong?

The controller is a KU93 and I'm running it with hall sensors. As far as I know the controller automatically detects phase sequences and hall sequences. The motor runs quite smoothly and reaches about 18mph, but not very much torque - about enough to get up slight/medium hills without pedalling. I'd say it's similar to a 250w Bafang at 15amps. It free-wheels nicely, so there's nothing causing drag. Other than soldering the shunt for more amps I'm at a bit of a loss what to do next. Any ideas?

One other thing. It comes with a 9pin connector and the phase wires are pretty thin. That's right 9 pins: 3 phase wires; 3 hall wires; two hall power wires; a white wire. Does anybody know what that white whire's for? I left it disconnected. I didn't connect the speed limiter. Anyway 22amps should give reasonable torque.

I'd also like to know if anybody else has compared the torque of this motor and how they found it.

Thanks for yout time.

A while back, a member here and I can't recall exactly who, perhaps Samtexas, was complaining bitterly about the Q128. He has 4 motors, aquired over a period of a couple of years, of which 3 have broken gears. His main gripe was the unavailability of parts, but he also commented that he was convinced that the factory was cheapening the product over time. He stated that the first motor was a better performer than the successive ones and that it was the one that still had good teeth. He was also convinced that the magnets had gotten weaker.
Be that as it may be, I think you have two options. they are;
1)A custom modd'ed, high performance controller like the Lyen Mini-Monster that I'm using with my frt. mounted MXUS. I ordered mine with a 22 Amp setting and the difference was night and day over the stock 17 Amp controller, much more that the increase of 5 Amps would account for I.M.O. I guess this is best evidenced by readings off my Cycle Analyst. After a ride, scrolling though the data, I often see an Amax of 38 to 40 Amps, although I never see those spikes on the main display, which in general, I keep in the "Watts display mode". I suspect that it's "hard-hitting" nature comes about from the way he programs the phase parameters, but I'm not sure.
Of course, in going this route, it could be only a matter of time till the gears become damaged or the Phase wires(the Achilles Heel with the whole Ananda line-up I.M.O.)start to melt.
2)Or do as I would do, install a Q100 to the front for 2WD. I'm at the point where I'm thinking, except for a dedicated assist only for a semi-fit[or above]cyclist, 2WD is the best use of these Mini-motors.

The Q128 is rated at 400-500w! Is it a bad motor or is something wrong?

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A while back, a member here and I can't recall exactly who, perhaps Samtexas, was complaining bitterly about the Q128.

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That wasn't SAM it was me!

Yes they have changed the motor but not the housing. The crappy wiring the single stage gear set and the weak magnets.
You can throw 60 amps at it, it's not gonna help.

I loved the ealy production 128s they were strong pulling off the line and at 48v good for 30mph. The new breed are just like you cut the current to maybe 10amps.

I had 4 good ones and tore up the gears and as said no support what so ever. So since I did like them I ordered some from another supplier since BMSBATTERY wouldn't help me. That was a big mistake it only took 6 miles to melt down the motor, no changes to the bike at the time, same battery same controller even the same outer housing since it was already laced in a wheel.

so once again I ordered one from BMS and it was the same as the others. Taking it apart more I found less gear reduction with no thrust bearings the old ones had and the motor would spin backwards almost as easy as freewheeling.

So back to the first quote, YOU have nothing done wrong, it's just not what they were so yeah they are junk.

I wasted enough money on them I could of bought 2 MACs. OH I forgot I do have 2 MACs. NOW that's a great gearmotor!

Strong power but it to has it's limits they don't like high current with high voltage. I have blown 2 clutches, but there are parts for them and if you don't get stupid like I did they will last a long time. Oh I fogot they laugh at hills, long as they aren't too long. accelerate up the tabogan hill here at the park as I go up it, the early CUTE 128 did the hill with help the new ones didn't stand a chance.

Sorry for therambling about the crap they ahve become, I really liked them, it's such a shame.

Dan

Do you know what that white wire from the motor is? Is it connected to anything?

I guess you could ck. continuity of the wht. wire against the others to see if it matches anything.

Just to finish off the story in case somebody else is thinking about buying one of these motors, I went out for a ride on my bike with this motor, so I'm now able to give a better evaluation.
I was in company with a friend who had a 250w Bafang at 20amps and 10aH of 12S lipos. I was using a 10aH 36v Headway battery. We completed a journey of about 28 miles, and at the end of it both our batteries were nearly flat. The journey was moderately hilly, and some of the hills were quite steep. The Bafang climbed slightly better and faster. It was also faster on the flat because it was running at a higher voltage. On the very steep hills, I had to pedal very hard to help the motor get me up them. The motor is very quiet and smooth, but does make a bit of noise under very high loads. Overall I would say that it's got about the same torque, power and speed as a 250w Bafang at 15amps. It's about the same price as a 250w Bafang as well and a little heavier, but I'm pretty sure it's less efficient at high currents.
In summary, I prefer the smoothness of the Q128, but the Bafangs are probably more robust and more efficient. If you need a motor that will drag 100kg up steep hills, then you need something more powerful like a MAC or BPM or anything else. There's no comparison between the Q128 and the BPM because of the massive torque difference. I can't understand where the Q128 stands because the Q100 is more efficient, smoother, smaller, cheaper and lighter and has about the same power characteristics.

I'd still love to know whether that white wire is connected to anything!

I believe the Q128 was the first of the Ananda mini's to be offered and I guess one could say it's showing it's age.

All things considered, I would make the argument that the MXUS is the "pick of the litter" when it comes to mini's. and for the right application, could be considered to be a half step between the Ananda range and the larger geared motors[BPM, Mac, etc.].

the motor would spin backwards almost as easy as freewheeling.

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thas's exactly what mine does. I can't feel any difference between 30amps and 15 amps at 37Volts. It pulls as hard as a 190W Tongxin but is louder and heavier

I believe the Q128 was the first of the Ananda mini's to be offered and I guess one could say it's showing it's age

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If it was the same as the original ones, I would still be using one.

I contacted ANANDA for gears. At first they said ok but when I told them I need the 2 stage planetary gears they just said sorry acn't help you. No more emails from them since they have chsnged the motor design and didn't have any of the original gears anymore.

I think the q100 is still using the 2 stage gears, but not sure as I never had one.

Q128's are cheap and now they are not worth even the cheap price they are.

Dan

Can someone post up the weights of the Q100, Q128, and BMS? Unlike a lot of people, who want to see if an ebike can hit freeway speeds, I want a lightweight solution for short distances up hills. Top speed of 15 to 20 is fine. The BMS has more torque, but what is the price in weight?

This thread had me convinced that the Q128 would be better, but it looks like the Q100 might be a good first conversion kit.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33105

BMSBattery... I put a kit into the Cart and shipping was shown as zero. Is that correct? Or will I find a $100 or higher shipping fee when I check out.

Not a hundred, more like 60 maybe..
Yes you need to start checkout to get shipping.

Dan

KevXR said:

Can someone post up the weights of the Q100, Q128, and BMS? Unlike a lot of people, who want to see if an ebike can hit freeway speeds, I want a lightweight solution for short distances up hills. Top speed of 15 to 20 is fine. The BMS has more torque, but what is the price in weight?

This thread had me convinced that the Q128 would be better, but it looks like the Q100 might be a good first conversion kit.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=33105

BMSBattery... I put a kit into the Cart and shipping was shown as zero. Is that correct? Or will I find a $100 or higher shipping fee when I check out.

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All the exact weights are on the BMSBattery.com website, but they're approximately 2kg, 3kg, 4kg for the Q100, Q128, BPM motors.

For hill-climbing, IMHO the Q100 would only be good in a 20" wheel unless you'rea light-weight. Forget the Q128. The BPM is a real work-horse and will be able to drag a heavy person up very steep hills, but then you need a relatively heavy battery to provide the amps and range.

I think the choice comes down to how heavy you are: Less than 180lbs and the Q100 is feasible; more than 200lb you can forget about light weight solutions, so the BPM makes more sense (or 20" wheels with Q100). The Bafang 250w QSWX is a bit more robust than the Q100 and maybe a bit more powerful or robust for running at higher amps for hill-climbing, but not as smooth and quiet as the others.

You have to go to the check-out to see the shipping cost appear in the basket - and it doesn't automatically update if you select further items without going back to the check-out.

I have narrowed down my choices to the q100 or Mxus geared hub.

I keep reading about running 24v motors being run at 36v and 36v motors being run at 48v. Am I better off buying a 24v motor and running at 36v? Is the only difference the controller or are the motors actually different? What I don't want is a heavy motor and big battery. I want pedal assist for hills and making distances a little easier. Top speed is not an issue. Ideally the hub is small a the gear cluster and I would like to fit the battery pack and controller into two water bottles.

Q100
http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-kits/371-250w350w-q-85100sx-motor-e-bike-kit.html

MXUS
http://www.emissions-free.com/catalog/i16.html

Tell us about you, the bike and where you will be riding.

The reason for running at higher voltages is usually to get more speed. The speed increases in direct proportion to voltage, so a 201rpm 15mph 36v motor will run at approx 20mph at 48v. However, the voltage of a charged 48v battery is actually about 56v so it'll do about 24mph. You also need more amps to hold the higher speed, so higher volts isn't the whole story. Also, the motors come in versions with higher speed windings, so you don't necessarily have to over-volt them.

motomech said:

Tell us about you, the bike and where you will be riding.

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First eBike. Less is more for me. I have a motorcycle that will go 100 mph, I don't need a fast electric bicycle. I'm looking for the Goldilocks, not too wimpy, but not that powerful. Lightweight and low cost are more important than speed or power. So many want to get to 1000w and 72v. I want to see how close to 24v and 250w I can stay.

Plan A: Hill boost.
Me: 55, 200+ lbs
I want an electric boost to pedal up a couple of steep fire roads. Then I want to ignore the electric motor on the bike. Think JATO rocket. It still is going to take me pedaling. I know I'll have to monitor the motor for heat and battery draining. That is OK. I just don't want to have a huge weight penalty for the next 10 miles of riding.

Plan B: Commuter.
Son: 150 lbs
Now, if I buy a setup that is too wimpy for me, Plan B is to use it for commuting. 15 mph is plenty fast for him for now. He doesn't need a bike that he is worried about having stolen, so a hub motor is rather stealthy and I'd create a removable battery pack. His long ride is 20 miles round trip and it has some moderate hills. He needs something that is easy to charge, ie one plug, not a complex charging system. Again, this is to supplement pedaling, not coasting/powered the whole way.

As long as the system isn't "I'd rather be on a skateboard", It isn't a waste.

Thanks in advance,

Kevin

The 201 rpm Cute Q100 with 10aH frog battery makes a very neat installation and will definitely be OK for your plan B, but might be marginal for plan A. Front or rear - take your pick. I'd get one, try it, and if it's not enough for plan A, then maybe a BPM kit. I wouldn't go down to 24v. 36v gives more options for very little weight penalty (if any).

I've scratched the Q128 off the list due to posts about bad quality.
Has anyone determined the physical difference between the q100 in 24v and 36v. The price is the same.

The little frog Battery in 24v Lipo is 159 vs 195 for 36v li-ion. Tempting to go with 24v.

36v, no doubt about it especially for that little of a price difference. You're talking about moderate hills, being better then a skateboard etc. You'll want the extra power and it should make a good bit of difference.

I'm going with a 44.4v battery for the q100 I ordered.

RyanTo said:

36v, no doubt about it especially for that little of a price difference. You're talking about moderate hills, being better then a skateboard etc. You'll want the extra power and it should make a good bit of difference.

I'm going with a 44.4v battery for the q100 I ordered.

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The only downside of 36v revolves around the cost and weight of the battery pack.
Will a 36v 10ah battery pack run at a lower throttle setting than a 24v 10ah battery pack? Thus extending the range at the same speed? Or allowing a smaller battery pack with fewer ah?

Can I ask exactly which kit you ordered and which battery pack? Thank you.

http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/

Battery capacity is Watts[V X A =W]. A 48V/10A pack would have 480 Watts, while a 36V/15A pack would have 540 Watts, only 60 Watts more. Any extra range the 36V pack would have, would primarily be because one would be traveling slower.
A Cute motor on 24 V wouldn't have enough power to get out of it's own way. Even on 36V, it's a weak system.
Both D8veh and I run our mini-motors on at least 44.4V.
A Q100 on 48V would be ok for a lighter rider who is commuting.
To climb any kind of hill would require the MXUS on at least 44.4.
Almost everybody who starts out by running a mini on 36V, regrets it very quickly[read the forum at Ampedbikes.com].

Your notion of only using the motor on hills and just pedaling the rest of the time is flawed. Even with the lightest motor and pack, the extra weight makes free pedaling not fun. And even though the geared motors freewheel, there is some drag[could be psyhological]. 95% of the folks that use an assist motor, use it most of the time, just lightly. That's why serious cyclists who want assist generally go with a friction roller set-up.
If you can't afford a decent battery now, you should wait till you can.
You might want to read my build link below where I play around with Q100's[fast winds] and the MXUS motor at different Voltages.

I've now increased the current to 25 amps and performance is marginally better. I went out for my normal ride which is about 15 miles with a final 5miles mainly uphill with one steep bit about a mile long. Up that hill, my friend came steaming past without pedalling on his 250w Bafang at 23amps, while I was pedalling quite hard with 17 amps on the meter. I have to go really slow to see the higher amps on the meter, i.e 5mph or less! When we got home my motor was very hot and the controller was pretty warm too. The 250w Bafang was not quite as hot. My BPM motor on the same ride hardly gets warm and neither does the controller, and I go faster with more amps on the meter. So my final final conclusion is that there's a lot of inefficiency somewhere, which is a shame because it's quite smooth and quiet. I'm still suspicious about the very thin phase wires.

I think I'm going to abandon this Q128 motor now. Instead, I've just ordered two Cuties (Q100s), and I'm going to have a go at a twin motor set-up like Motomech. Mine will be both 201rpm at 36v. I'll have two three position switches: one for front/rear/both motors and the other normal three speed switch to get the speed up to 20 mph. The plan is to only use two motors for climbing. I'm hoping to get a donor bike tomorrow.

d8veh said:

I've now increased the current to 25 amps and performance is marginally better. I went out for my normal ride which is about 15 miles with a final 5miles mainly uphill with one steep bit about a mile long. Up that hill, my friend came steaming past without pedalling on his 250w Bafang at 23amps, while I was pedalling quite hard with 17 amps on the meter. I have to go really slow to see the higher amps on the meter, i.e 5mph or less! When we got home my motor was very hot and the controller was pretty warm too. The 250w Bafang was not quite as hot. My BPM motor on the same ride hardly gets warm and neither does the controller, and I go faster with more amps on the meter. So my final final conclusion is that there's a lot of inefficiency somewhere, which is a shame because it's quite smooth and quiet. I'm still suspicious about the very thin phase wires.

I think I'm going to abandon this Q128 motor now. Instead, I've just ordered two Cuties (Q100s), and I'm going to have a go at a twin motor set-up like Motomech. Mine will be both 201rpm at 36v. I'll have two three position switches: one for front/rear/both motors and the other normal three speed switch to get the speed up to 20 mph. The plan is to only use two motors for climbing. I'm hoping to get a donor bike tomorrow.

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I would urge you to consider mixing the "201" and the "328" versions
.With my fast wind rear Q100[stk. controller], my no-pedal top speed is in the 20 to 21 mph raNGE[I weigh 250 lb.s, so yours could be a bit higher], but with it's "power limited" no-load speed, I am able to input with my bike's 11T/44T gearing up to 25 mph. Very nice :lol:
I believe the slow wind would run out of rpm at approx. the same speed, but would not offer the "over run" of the fast wind to add much by pedaling.
Based on my hill testing[approx. 10% grade], I don't feel that much climbing ability would be lost with my proposed mix.
Although the single fast wind climb performance was abysmal, the dual fast wind combo would maintain 12.5 mph to the crest
By way of comparison, the Q100/MXUS combo climbs it at 15 mph. And although the MXUS is a "mid-wind[255 rpm @ 39V as tested by Cell_man], it is fed 22 plus Amps. I would est. that the dual slow winds would not better that speed, and with the controllers left stk., might even be a little less.
For me, I would trade the extra 3 mph that I can add by pedaling for a loss of 2 mph while climbing[as long as the motors stay in their efficiency range, which they do]. The only area that i think a real drop in performance by mixing wind would manifest, would be right "off the line", but again, I think there would be plenty of that.
Another pleasent result of the "mid/fast" motor mix is the 2-motor WOT speed[which I seldom use].
The Mxus alone on 12S will produce 22.5 mph, while both motors will reach a teary-eyed 26.5 mph, the Q100 helping the MXUS[I assume]extend it's efficiency % past it's no-load speed[this is an assumption due to the fact I run both systems though a single CA, so I am unable to see how the division of labor works out at those speeds].
Just some ramdon thoughts.

KevXR said:

Can I ask exactly which kit you ordered and which battery pack? Thank you.

http://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/

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Here's the one I ordered laced into a 26" rim:

http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-kits/426-250w350w-q-85100sx-motor-e-bike-kit.html

I ordered it for my girlfiend who is 120 lbs. She has been using my Mac kit but doesn't use it past the lowest speed setting = 18 mph. Hopefully the q100 will be good for her! I'm sure it's not going to have the torque of the mac.

The batteries I'm using are hobbyking lipo 6s packs. You probably don't want to jump into those -> . Any 48v pack would be similar.

Hey guys,

What is the no-load current of Q100 (328) running on 48V?

I'm getting close to 5A no-load and with 15A controller it's gutless..