The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by thundercamel » Sep 10 2019 4:15pm

Good catch on that crack!
My Ebike builds - Existing bikes, affordable motor kits, self built 14s6p batteries - Now with more recumbent!

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Sep 10 2019 11:34pm

I got lucky; if it'd been any darker out there (around sunset as it was) I wouldn't've noticed it.

I did mess up the tiller angle when I tightned the stem clamp bolts though; it's something like several degrees off to the left. :( Rideable that way, but annoying. Have to fix that tomorrow.

Also gotta try to find that other IGH; this one is definitely messed up inside. Most of the time I can pedal with it, but sometimes it "misses" and doesn't engage the gears, among other problems.

I forgot to post that I reinstalled the old bent up fender temporarily (still have to finish painting the "new" one from wturber, and fix up support struts and a rear "mud flap" cuz it doesn't go down low enough back there to keep water from splashing up in turns.

I put rivnuts near the dropouts on the junk fork lowers I'm presently still using, to hold the fender supports, but the righthand one came out of the hole...I guess I didn't pull the tool hard enough; have to redo it. (whenever I get around to replacing these lowers with the dropouts Chalo sent I'll add tabs for this instead, but this was quick and relatively easy since I had the rivets and riveter out anyway).

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by mattthemuppet » Sep 12 2019 12:55pm

what beautiful dogs!

I haven't had time to read the whole thread, but are you using a star nut in the steerer tube to preload the headset bearings? You shouldn't need to use a strap to tighten the headset, but have the head set and spacers the right stack height so tightening the top steerer bolt preloads the bearings.

I had a similar deal once with a bearing cone unscrewing on a rear wheel. It ended up forcing the drop outs far enough to snap the quick release. Not what you want in the middle of the Alps :) No idea why it happened though, probably a loose or insufficiently tightened lock nut.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Sep 12 2019 5:22pm

mattthemuppet wrote:
Sep 12 2019 12:55pm
what beautiful dogs!
Thanks. :) They're usually a lot of fun to be around, though the puppies make it a bit much on occasion. Thankfully they're about as big as they're going to get, and beginning to realize how big they are, and learning to be a little (slightly) more careful.

Many days are...an adventure. ;)


I haven't had time to read the whole thread, but are you using a star nut in the steerer tube to preload the headset bearings? You shouldn't need to use a strap to tighten the headset, but have the head set and spacers the right stack height so tightening the top steerer bolt preloads the bearings.
I couldn't use a star nut originally, because I couldn't get it to go in there straight (wasn't preinstalled), so I couldn't install it, and I didn't have the right ID spacers to go between the tiller stem clamp and the cap (I'd used what I had between the stem clamp and the top bearing). I didn't want to cut the steerer because at some point I will possibly rebuild the front triangle with a taller headtube, partly for more space in teh triangle, partly for stronger frontend.

This last time around I did manage to get the star nut in there, and I made spacers that worked alright from a piece of headtube and a couple of bearing races.
I had a similar deal once with a bearing cone unscrewing on a rear wheel. It ended up forcing the drop outs far enough to snap the quick release. Not what you want in the middle of the Alps :) No idea why it happened though, probably a loose or insufficiently tightened lock nut.
The bearing cone unscrewed on this, too, but the thing on this one is that it shouldn't even be possible for it to happen, becuase the axle is locked in place against rotation by the flats in the torque washer against the axle flats. It's a pretty perfect fit, and I couldn't see any damage on the washer or the axle flats, and the washer was still pinned in the dropout just like it was installed, by the nuts on both sides taht were still very tight.

Yet the axle *had* rotated and backed out almost a centimeter.

Whatever happened...I'll have to ensure it doesn't happen on the next one, whenever i get the time/energy to replace it, after I find all the parts I need for that.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Sep 12 2019 6:47pm

Yesterday I fixed the tiller angle, and readjusted the handlebar that's been just slightly crooked for quite some time while I was at it.

Also fixed the rivnut for the right fork fender mount, but had to use silicone to do it because apparently I drilled the hole just too large for the rivnut to grab it. Can't see how, same drillbit I used on the other side, but wahtever. Could've weld-filled it and redrilled, but decided to just glue it in instead. Would've used gorillaglue but couldn't remember where i put the bottle (found it right after I finished the day's work, of course).

Had to replace the padlock on the back door of the cargo area, because I must've not locked the hasp completely last time I went to the store, and somewhere along the work commute the last few days the lock fell off. :(

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by mattthemuppet » Sep 13 2019 10:56pm

good, glad you got the steerer and headset sorted out. Not something you want loose. Those star nuts are a pain to get in, the bike shopes have a neat tool they use to hammer it in.

Yeah, I'm as lost as you are about the cone unscrewing. No real ideas, but hopefully it won't happen again! No issue on my bikes, they're all cartridge bearing hubs :)

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Sep 13 2019 11:18pm

Yeah, I'm as lost as you are about the cone unscrewing. No real ideas, but hopefully it won't happen again! No issue on my bikes, they're all cartridge bearing hubs :)
Even if it doesn't come undone again, it's still messed up inside (catches and drags, grinds, etc; pretty sure it's partially shifting between gears randomly (possibly from bumps in the road)), so I still have to swap it out when I find the other one of the same kind, or one of the others I have the bits for.

I've never had this kind of problem before, but this is the first time I've used an IGH in such a configuration, and with such heavy loads. I don't actually contribute much pedalling power, as my joints just hurt too much, but I do frequently have to use the pedals to get the trike moving forward just enough to get the Grinfineon controllers presently in sensorless mode to engage and not just sit there and hammer a second and then shutdown. (the previous generic sensorless controllers didn't shutdown, they'd hammer and then start me moving on their own most of the time)

I think the only hubs I have in in-use wheels that are cartridge are the ones presently on the Mk III trailer.

mattthemuppet wrote:
Sep 13 2019 10:56pm
good, glad you got the steerer and headset sorted out. Not something you want loose. Those star nuts are a pain to get in, the bike shopes have a neat tool they use to hammer it in.

After I got it started I was able to use a screwdriver, handle-first, tapping on the tip with a mallet, to install it into the steerer.

I think most of the "looseness" I thougth I was feeling wasnt' really the headset, I think it was taht cracked-away-from-the-headtube toptube, which is also fixed, but since both were fixed before able to retest, I don't know which fixed it.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by mattthemuppet » Sep 17 2019 1:34pm

I did actually remember what happened (long time ago and terrible memory) - the nut holding the freehub on started to unscrew, which applied alot of pressure to the cones and I think those unscrewed a bit. Not a lot of help in your situation, but at least I remembered!

The star nut tool is a large knurled rod with an M5 (I think) screw sticking out the end. Screw star nut onto that, hold knurled part and hit other end with a mallet :)

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Sep 19 2019 11:36pm

That tool design makes sense...I guess I can make one easy enough next time I need to do it. ;)


A little while back, maybe a couple weeks or so, I disconnected the PAS sensor from the CA because of the dangerous situations that randomly occur where even a touch on the cranks, causing no rotation, can trigger full forward PAS power. (which shouldn't be possible).

I hadn't disabled it in the CA yet, so a few days back I did so.

Since then, (and possibly since the disconnect of the sensor; can't remember), the wierd problem has apparently gone away, where I'd hold full throttle and let the CA just keep me at the speed limit (20mph), but first it would go a mile or two over, and then it would cut power completely and just coast until it dropped way below the limit, sometimes as far as several MPH below it, and then begin to reaccelerate to the limit and hold there.

Now, there's two variations of reaching the limit.

If from a stop I hold the throttle at full, and let the CA limit, it'll go up a mile or two above, and then instead of cutting power it just reduces it, until it holds at the limit. It doesn't dive below the limit anymore.

If instead from a stop I move the throttle to keep me around 20mph manually, for a few seconds (seems like around 6-8), then push to full, it just keeps me at the 20mph limit. It doesn't go up above the limit, nor dive below it.


So, two "bugs" with the CA:

First, the CA's PAS subroutines, when in use, cause what I would call severe excursions around a speed limit.

Second, the speed limit routine has a "delay" (or something) in it that causes a significant excursion above the speed limit before actually beginning limiting (even though the MPH is flashing indicating that it knows it should be doing so). As long as the throttle is manually handled at the limit until the delay is past, the excursion does not occur.

Why about eight seconds for this and other CA "bugs", I don't know, but it is a common factor.


I'm still going thru the manual and Teklektik's UUG over and over to figure out what I might be able to do to make the PAS safely usable, but I probably won't reconnect it until after I get the hall sensors fixed up in the hubmotors, so taht the Grinfineons can operate in sensored mode. Then when that's working, I should be able to have sinewave operation and smooth startup.

It should also allow me to get correct operation of the on/off (non-proportional) regen braking, which right now doesn't work at all on one controller, and is not even noticeable on the other when riding (only off-ground unloaded). The trike is difficult to stop quickly with only the front brake; I depend on the regen braking of the rear wheels for quick stops.

Then I can setup the proportional regen brake lever (which will switch the throttle inputs for both controllers over to a single voltage source controlled by the lever, once the ebrake switch in the lever engages), which should give much better braking.

If the braking can't be made to work correctly and sufficiently to stop the trike quickly, I'll have to talk to Grin about returning these controllers, as they are effectively useless if that doesn't work. If they wont' do that, I'll have to resell them on ES, I guess, to fund buying some other controller pair that can do *hard* proportional regen braking and sinewave motor operation. Or all the parts for the Lebowski controllers I've got PCBs for but still haven't been able to get all the parts for. (and then still have to build powerstages for, or hook them up to the powerstages of generic controllers, or something).


Anyway, once controllers that can properly brake are squared away, I can go back to dealing with the CA stuff and PAS, etc. At the rate things are going, that's probably going to be sometime next year. :/

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Sep 24 2019 12:56am

Flash floods in my area again tonight, from around an hour before I left work thru my ride home till maybe an hour after I got home. Still raining out there last I looked, but not much.

Around Metrocenter, I had to ride (very slowly) on the sidewalks (which are 6-8" higher than the road) to only have 3-4" of water to ride thru, and I couldn't even see the road itself for the water, except for a couple of places. Some places I had the gravel or grass or other stuff to guide me on the right to keep me on the sidewalk, and I could go a bit faster, maybe 10MPH, but other places there was so much water I couldn't get beyond walking speed, or risk riding off the invisible-underwater edge of the sidewalk.

WHen I first left work I tried riding in the streets, staying as close to the crown of the road as I could, even though it meant staying in the lanes with cars, because the water was too high to ride thru in the rest of teh road. Wouldn't stop a car, (most of them anyway), but it would've been higher than the bottom of my trike at the least, and over the tops of the hubmotors in some places. (even higher at some places where I was up on the sidewalk and still riding thru enough water to reach the bottom of the trike, thankfully only for a few dozen feet at a time).

Thankfully also, there wasnt' a lot of traffic, and what there was was not trying to race thru the rain like people usually do, so it was not as dangerous as it could've been.

But I only made it around 1/4 mile before I decided it was just not safe, maybe not even possible, to continue riding on what little road I could stay on (often the left side of the left lane). Sometimes I couldn't even see the concrete median of the road, between the opposing traffic sides, and I scraped it twice with my left rear tire before giving up on the road and taking to the sidewalk to the right of the road-river.

When I got past the Metrocenter area, down in the mostly-empty shopping center just north of Dunlap, it wasnt' nearly as bad, though parts of the parking lot were lakes I had to go around. Once across Dunlap (which wasn't flooded, but had enough water on it for cars to all have huge roostertails as they went past), it wasn't too bad either, until I got to a side street leading to 29th Ave, whcih just had a few feet of the center of the road visible, as did 29th itself. Again, very little traffic, so was able to stay on the crown of the road.

Interestingly, despite the amount of water that I went thru that definitely went at least as high as all the wiring under the trike, and the controllers, and the heavy rain on the handlebars and tiller where the various JST connectors are for Cycle Analyst functions from throttle/etc to controllers are, I had no problems at all during the ride with any of the motor or lighting stuff, even though I had no waterproofing at all yet done (I forgot about doing the various things I usually do, until I was actualy riding in it).



Thunder/lightning was so bad at times I was wishihg for earplugs at the least, and instant-response eye coverings to keep from being blinded. Poor Yogi when I got home was more than his usual scared, even with the pheremone diffusers, and Raine said that the sammich (sandwich; PeanutButter and Jelly) and Kirin were out barking at the world when the world "barked back" so loudly that they all ran inside, and PB&J who normally aren't fazed by anything were wide-eyed and stayed in after that, didn't even wanna go out when I got home or after their dinner. Apparently Kirin had kept going out to check if I was home yet, she had pretty bad anxietals from the storm. Mouse (the cat) didnt' appreciate any of the noise of the weather *or* the dogs (dragons to her), and was all upset and angry.


If the rain continues over the next few days like it's predicted, it'll thoroughly water the yard, at least.

Another good bit is that temperatures are on the next 10-degree-F "stepdown", going from the 100-105F ish range to the 90-95F ish range...though it seems like it has taken some 2-3 weeks longer to do this than previous years, that might be just a problem with my memory.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Oct 13 2019 11:26pm

Didnt' get much more rain than the above, then no more after that.

I have a week off coming up starting this Friday, and had ordered a few things to do some of the as-yet-unfinished upgrades started last time around, back in August, when I really only got the Grinfineons installed and rewired various things.

Just ordered last night, due this Thursday, are a pair of AVID BB7's with 160mm rotors for the rear wheels of the trike,
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=102801&p=1503549#p1503549
https://www.rei.com/product/808780/avid ... 60mm-rotor
as mechanical backups for when regen isn't working for whatever reason (like now, since I'm still running sensorless and the Grinfineons don't do regen in sensorless mode, which I think is really stupid, since even the crappiest generic sensorless stuff I have will do *that*, and really well! (if only in on/off braking mode, rather than proportional). I have to modify the rear frame around the wheels to hold the calipers and clear the rotors, and have to put a rotor-mounting ring back onto the rightside MXUS, *or* get the ex-Stromer motor laced up into a wheel as planned, and use that. The left side MXUS rotor mount is still intact.

Ordered a couple weeks or more ago were these cable-operated throttles,
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Electri ... 09008.html
based on MJSfoto1956's feedback in his thread over here
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=98446&start=150
about the ones he got, so I got mine from the same place, pretty cheap, pair of them for less than $10 with the "instant coupon" that popped up, including shipping.

The first one will be used to setup a brake lever with proportional regen control thru the CA, rather than using the lever to engage braking and the throttle to control it, it will instead "take over" from the actual throttle, using a relay activated by the ebrake's switch to change the CA's THin from the throttle to this cable-operated one instead, which will be pulled by the lever. I'll need to make a pulley for the cable to increase the amount of cable the lever pulls, so I can get full range out of it.

But the way these are made, I could also use a potentiometer inside them (they're built as halls), by drilling and tapping the pot shaft for the screw that secures the pulley to the internal magnet-ring right now, and replacing that magnet ring with the pot, then securing the pot to the base itself in any of a number of ways.

If I do that, then instead of a fixed voltage output range of (probably) around 0.8v - 4v with the hall, I would be able to get *any* range, and I could then even use it directly on the controller's throttle input as a 0.8 - 0v range, using the ebrake switch to activate a relay that switches the controller's THin from the CA's output (or the actual throttle, whichver I've got setup), to the cable-operated throttle's output.



I'm also going to need to get that 3-speed IGH swapped out, at least putting just a jackshaft in there, because it's failing in a way that prevents me from being able to even spin the pedals sometimes, much less to actually pedal the trike manually (no motor) if that were necessary for whatever reason.
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Oct 13 2019 11:42pm

And I almost forgot:

A few days ago, when I had to make a quick trip to Lowe's for some bits and pieces for other household projects, I heard more creaking and squeaking than is normal in the back, so when I got home I took a look at it, and found this, after taking the fender covers off to access the frame (also took some of the deck boards off to check stuff under them).
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It should be obvious, but there are cracks at the bottom of the "V" of tubes going down to the dropout on the inboard side. Both tubes are completely cracked away from that point, though there were no cracks on the left side motor frame.
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I'm guessing these were initiated when I was testing the SFOC5 last year and it had the bug(s) that caused it to suddenly try to reverse the motor's rotation while at speed, which broke the axle at least once (might've been twice, I can't remember anymore). Wouldn't surprise me to find it had also fractured the tubing there, and then normal stress continued it.

The regularly-used generic controller on that side (pre-grinfineon) didnt' have strong enough accleration or regen to do this, compared to the left side one that didn't have any visible damage, which was a lot better acceleration *and* regen--Id've expected this on the left side, not the right, from that source.

Anyway, I went ahead and rewelded thru the tubing in that area on both sides, just in case, and at the other ends of that tubing and the wheel-well frame, and a few other places that might've taken stresses that high. The squeaks stopped, so that's that, for now, until the next thing breaks. ;) So far it's only the materials that break, rather than the welds, so I seem to need stronger materials. (and/or better designs).


That area is going to get reworked at least a little to add the disc brakes anyway, so we'll see about redesigns at that time, if necessary.
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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by sfiii » Oct 16 2019 1:59am

Cute box on the trike! I like the upgrade

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Oct 18 2019 2:46am

Thansk--it was designed to be removable whenever I wasnt' carrying a dog, but I haven't taken it off in the year or so since I built it; it's been too useful for everything else I do with the trike (even though it adds as much weight as a hubmotor wheel). it's made of the lightest usefully-strong wood I could get locally cheaply (dogeared pine), but it's still got significant weight.


Kirin is almost back to normal after her surgery (for bloat) a couple weeks ago; she's still eating just boiled chicken and rice, and not yet pooping regularly, but it comes out right when it does come out. ;)


The trike has a new problem, though: Last few days the righthand controller shuts down when near or at max current for a few seconds or less, which is dangerous when I'm trying to accelerate in traffic, and means I cannot trust that I can get into, out of, or across gaps in traffic, so I ahve to wait until it is so completely clear that if the trike were to cutout completely I could still either pedal it the rest of the way out of the way (which will take quite a while for me), or get off and push it (not much faster), cuz I can't trust that the same thing wont' happen with the other Grinfineon on the right, as I dont' yet have any idea why it's happening, except that it doesnt' have anything to do with the CA, and appears to be a problem at the controller itself. I'll know more later this week since I'm off work the next several days so I can fix stuff up.


I'm getting pretty tired of "upgrade" controllers that don't do what they're supposed to, and then start having problems, when the generic cheap junk generally has just worked, though not with the features I would like to have. (unfortunately not true of the generic junk motors...but I don't have yet have any experience with good ones to compare that to--hopefully I'll correct that once I get the ex-Stromer motor on the trike, in place of the righthand MXUS).

I'll figure something out, one way or another....

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Oct 18 2019 9:22pm

Broke my first spoke in years, I think it's been now. I found one spoke on the leftside MXUS motor wheel was snapped off at the J-bend, when I went to top off the air in the tires today before making a grocery run on my first day off (to be sure I have enough stuff here for me and the dogs, especally chicken/rice for Kirin, before taking stuff on the trike apart to begin my repairs and upgrades, which will leave it immobile for a few days).

These are the Sapim spokes from Grin Tech from 2-3 years ago, I think it was. I hav e to check the tension of the rest of them, to see if that's what caused it. Not many potholes are in the path of hte left side motor, just the front wheel and the right side, so that's unlikley to be the issue, especially since there's no rim damage anywhere either. Could just be weight; I've had quite a few extra heavy loads directly on the trike in the last few months (making the total weight 800-900lbs), and then every day for the last couple weeks I've taken Kirin to work with me and bakc home, which is about a hundred pounds of wiggly dog over the rear wheels, primarily the left as that's the side she likes to stand on to stick her head out into the wind beside/behind me.

Or any combination fo the above.

I have four extra spokes for each wheel available, so as long as I don't find any damage to others beyond that, I can just replace the broken one(s), wihtout having to order anything new, or make any workarounds.


After the shopping trip (and Kirin's checkup at the vet to get her staples removed just prior to that, this morning) I was so wiped out I ended up taking a series of involuntary naps, so I havent' accomplished anything yet.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Oct 19 2019 5:28pm

Found a second broken spoke on that wheel, a few counterclockwise away from it on the inboard side (instead of the outboard side the first one I saw is on), and looking at other spokes found some in the same area that look bent as if something (stick?) got stuck in the spokes.
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Don't know what, as there's no visible bits left behind, but it could've even been a stick the dogs had been chewing on and left leaning against the wheel, then when I rode off to work it fell into the spokes and snapped, but damaged the spokes at the same time.

The motors make such a loud hammering with these Grinfineons in the sensorless trapezoidal mode when trying to startup from a stop I wouldn't likely notice the sound of a stick (even a hefty one) breaking, or spokes snapping, especially with all the dogs around the trike being all excited and playful like they usually are when I'm leaving or coming home.


So I gotta check all the spokes and replace at least those two.


I tipped the trike over on it's side to check out connectors and whatnot to see if something loose might be why the righthand controller keeps cutting out under load. Found no visible issues with anything, but went ahead and disconnected and replugged the PP45s on the battery connections anyway, several times each, just to "scrape off" any potential contamination I might not be able to see.
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Powered the trike on, then tested the right motor (still offground, trike on it's side), it starts up and runs (but it would do that fine without a load anyway), but the left motor wouldn't do anything, no response to throttle at all. Since that controller's LED doesn't light up or blink (though it's supposed to in sensorless mode, like the other one does), I can't tell if it's on or not, so I pushed the button switch on it's endcap, to no avail. Repushed it to put it back in teh state it was in before (which should've already been "on"), no change.

Verified it was plugged into the battery connection, dug out the voltmeter, and verified power at the back of it's PP45s ok, same voltage as at the ones on the other controller. Checked and found no 5v at the throttle power wire at the controller's JST (also none at the red wire of the ebrake connector). Then powered the trike off and disconnected it from all the phase and control (throttle, ebrake, etc) wires, leaving only battery power, and powered the trike on, and verified still no 5v, regardless of switch state.

So the non-cutting-out controller just died, for no reason I could see.


I took it off the trike, and brought it inside to open it up and verify things like battery and LVPS voltages.

First thing to note is that the wire to the LED was broken at the back of the LED, held on (barely) by the white (silicone?) that secures the LED to the case end plate. Explains why I didn't always get a light on this one when it's on.
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Next, I found the switching LVPS had only around 8v at the input to the 78L05, but it's marked on the PCB that it's supposed to be 15v, so either the 5v supply is being dragged down by something else that's fried inside, or the LVPS 15v is being dragged down by a dead 78L05.

I closely examined with a magnifying glass for solder bits, corrosion, or anything else that might potentially cause this sort of thing, and found nothing. But when examining the JST connectors, something bugged me about them, so I took the other controller off the trike and brought it in, to compare them, and found that the ebrake connectors are wired opposite from each other. That's wierd.
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I didn't see this before because this controller's connectors do have the (labelled) heatshrink on them from the back end of the JST over the cable (unlike the other controller); I only saw it now because I had to pull it back to check for problems like stray wires at the back of the JST.

I don't know which one is correct, and which one is wrong, but because I have them wired in parallel to the same ebrake lever, it means that effectively the one on this controller ends up having it's 5v line shorted to the ground on the other controller every time ebrake is engaged.

That completely explains the wrong behavior I first saw under the first testing of these controllers back in August, where this controller simply appears to shutdown whenever the ebrake was engaged, letting the wheel just spin down, instead of stopping it's rotation like the other controller does.


Another thing I noticed when testing on the bench today is that the Turnigy Wattmeter I have on the test battery showed an idle current of 50-60mA for this controller. The other controller, plugged in in place of this one, only has an idle current of less than 10mA (TWM flickers 0.00-0.01A, mostly staying at zero). So this (non-working) controller has at least 5-6 times the amount of current, and probably more like ten times, assuming the other one's current is less than half of 10mA based on the TWM's behavior).


Anyway, this controller will have to go back to Grin Tech now to get fixed, so now to write up an email to them.

So much for my plans to fix up the motor/controller setup on the trike to get the sinewave and prop-regen stuff all working. :/


I guess my next thing to do is to reconnectorize the old generic 15FET I'd had on the leftside motor to match the PP45s and the JSTs I've got on the trike's wiring harness now, so that I still have 2WD (necessary for the trike) once I get everything else done, while waiting for the controller repair/etc.


Then I take the left wheel off and fix the spoke problems.


Then I build that Stromer motor into one of the rims, to replace the rightside MXUS (because I don't have disc rotor mounts on that MXUS anymore, though I'm sure I can put them back on the cover one way or another, I want to try this motor out anyway).


Then I begin modifying the frame to mount the new AVID BB7 disc brakes on the rear wheels.
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This is kind of a major undertaking, because I have to basically build a new side rail for each of the outboard sides, with a new (clamping) dropout on each side (there won't be enough axle length left for a nut), that has the tabs to bolt the disc brake caliper to.

This does give me the opportunity to also make the outboard side rail bolt on, instead of integral, so it'd be MUCH easier to take a wheel off without tipping the trike over on it's side for any work that I have to do on one. Have to do this to the triangulation supports from the dropout to the top rail too, so the side rail will have the whole thing be one piece, and four bolts plus the axle pinch bolt will take it off.


Ideally, I'll also be able to make a "parking brake" lever or whatever, that pulls and clamps the rear disc brakes on, probably with a second cable to each of the calipers, to replace the wheelchair-handbrakes I'm using for that now (which just friction against the tires themselves, and thus work better the more inflated the tires are, and worse the less they are...but either way are more and more difficult for me to set and release as my hand and arm problems get worse over time).

I can't actually make the disc brakes work as brakes yet, though, because I haven't found cable long enough to reach from the bars all the way back there (I found *housing* long enough...just not brake cable yet). EDIT: found some tandem cables that should reach, supposed to be here Monday.

After that, there's lots of other stuff I want to do, but I don't even know if I'll get all of the above done in the 5 days off I have left.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Oct 20 2019 6:17pm

Not much done yet today. I replaced three spokes on the leftside MXUS; two broken and one badly bent, and retensioned the wheel. Haven't retrued it yet.

Installed one of the ex-tubes as a liner between the actual tube and the tire when reinstalling them after the above repair.

after lunch I'll open the motor itself up to test the halls and replace any that need it, as well as replacing the phase/hall wires with the new stuff from Grin tech I got back in August for the purpose. IIRC this stator has two sets of halls so I also need to run those out as a separate set of 3 signal wires (they share power/ground with the others), so I can switch over easily if that's ever necessary.

Once that's done, I'll open up the Stromer motor and recable it, make sure it's halls work, add the temperature sensor, and then close it up and lace it into a wheel to replace the rigthside MXUS motor wheel.

Then I'll figure out which controller (probably the generic 15fet) will go on the leftside motor to replace the failed Grinfineon, and then put the other one back on the right side to run the Stromer motor, and get it working like that, first.


Once that's all done, which will probably take teh rest of today and probably at least some if not all of tomorrow (monday), I will begin working on the new outboard framework to replace the existing sections highlighted in green below.
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These will bolt on, and will no longer have "dropouts", but rather simple very thick "torque plates" that have axle-shaped holes, to slide over the end of the outboard axles and secure the wheel in place. The plates will have the disc caliper mounts on them too. There will be similar plates on the inboard side to replace the pinching dropouts.

That will let me slide the wheel in and out from the side, rather than having to tilt or tip it far enough up/over (or on it's side) to work on a wheel. It'll also secure them more precisely and thoroughly than the present setup, and requires no axle nuts/hardware other than perhaps spacer washers to ensure lineup of chain/freewheel on the inboard left side, and the rotors/calipers on both outboard sides.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Oct 21 2019 2:37am

Well, I got the leftside MXUS spare halls wired up to the external cable; couldn't fit a second set of hall wires anywhere unless I modify the axle on the other side to pass them thru--no time/energy for that kind of work right now. Plus I'd have to replace one of the halls in the first set anyway, as it has one lead broken off completely. :( Guess that's why it didnt' work sensored when I tried it with the Grinfineon back in August.

Verified the hall operation with the "ebike tester" unit (these are handy), and closed the motor back up and remounted it on the trike, minus the chain (so it can't spin the chainline backwards if the phase/hall order is wrong).

Hooked up the Grinfineon I'd had on the rightside (we'll call it "241" since it's 2.41mOhm shunt, vs the 2.44mOhm on the failed Grinfineon) to the leftside MXUS, and figured out the phase/hall sequence by trial and error (lots of the latter), so now it's owrking in sinewave sensored mode.

Haven't tested it on-ground yet, but it "seems" to have stronger regen than in sensorless mode (which is basically no regen at all), in offground testing.


But...I had to use the CA's throttle output from the rightside throttle to test it, because the leftside independent throttle is apparently dead, probalby killed by the Grinfineon's 5v/LVPS failure. :( Have to verify that at the actual throttle itself, but testing using the "ebike tester" at the connector under the deck where the controller hooks up gets no output at all. Most likely I'll have to replace the hall in the throttle; thankfully I have a bunch of full-grip throttles that are easy to get the sensor out, already connected to the cable. (cuz I don't have anymore unbroken thumb throttles, and don't really want to have to go thru modifying a grip throttle into a thumb throttle, though I can if I ahve to).



I reconnectorized the 15FET and set it up on hte righthand motor, and it's working as expected in offground testing. For now both controlers are being run off the CA throttle out signal, until I fix the lefthand throttle.


Done for tonight with owrking on stuff, gotta rest now. Will get to the Stromer wheel tomorrow, hopefully, but first I have to test out an old refrigerator from before the housefire, cuz it worked great then, but it's been unused in a shed for about six years now. My brother's fridge isn't working right (probably the thermostat) so we need something to keep his stuff in reliably until we figure out the problem and fix it (if it's fixable), or just keep using this old one if it works (if it doesnt' there's a second one from back then that I can try).

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Oct 22 2019 1:34am

Verified the leftside throttle hall is dead, it's output stays at 0.65v. Iv'e got a hall pulled from a fullgrip throttle prewired and ready to install once I take the thumb throttle body off the trike to deal with it.

For now, I just have the CA's throttle output Y-connectored to both controllers, so the righthand throttle is the only active one.

Because of that, I also found the CA is what is causing the cutouts I had with the previously-righthand controller, number 241, (now on the left side), when it's under load.

This makes no sense, as there have been no changes in the CA settings at all, from long before (months) it started to now.

But if I set the CA throttle mode to Bypass, rather than Pass-thru, it doesn't cutout. Also, it accelerates far harder in Bypass than Pass-thru. So the most likely thing is the CA is attempting to limit current or power, but it should not be, becuase the settings I put in there are essentially unlimited (the max possible to setup in the CA Setup Program). When I look at the limit page in the CA itself, it shows 99A and 0W, though, which is very wrong. If I attempt to reset them to the max, they just go back to 99 and 0, which is not correct behavior.

I"ll have to hook up the CA to the laptop and see what the Setup program shows me the settings actually are in the CA, and then maybe try rewriting them and see if it fixes the problem.


FWIW, I also tried the Current throttle mode, but it takes seconds to begin ramping up to enough current to start moving the trike at all, which doesn't make sense to me. Because a delay like that is totally unsafe and completely unusable, I couldn't test further to see if it would cutout eventually (it would probably have taken more than a minute to reach a high enough current to do so, and the neighborhood street isn't nearly that long--I'd have to go to a main street with traffic on it, and that would be very dangerous with this delay).

So I tested around the block a few times in Pass-thru, and other than the cutouts both controllers work fine, and the sensored sinewave mode of the Grinfineon on the left motor is really smooth and quiet, especially compared to the generic 15fet running the rightside motor. But acceleration isn't as quick as it could be, feels "weak", compared to what it had been before the troubles with the cutouts/etc started, and max current is under 60A.

The regen braking is better on the grinfineon now, but not sufficient--the 15fet is much much stronger; pulls to the right pretty hard. I need to setup the wiring for the ebrake lever to go to the CA's brake input so I can use proportional regen and see if it gets stronger that way (since the Grinfineon will only allow 50% of braking power in on/off braking mode, and can only do 100% braking with proportional regen inputs).


In Bypass throttle mode, accleration is quicker, trike pulls harder quite noticeably, and the current peaks at over 80A (forgot the exact number, I think it's actually over 85A).


So, at least the trike is functional and usable again, but I have to figure out what the heck is going on with the CA now, in additon to the rest of the problems.


I don't think much of the rest of the stuff I wanted to do is going to get done this week; to do the disc brakes, the parts I ahve to make will take at least a couple weeks to cut, shape, file, and fit to the axles, because I have to make four of them. I *could* just hack the trike to fit ghe brakes on there, but that's still at least two or three days of stuff, and I go back to work friday. If somethign goes wrong I wouldn't have enough time to put the trike back into working condition. :/

Better to make the parts the right way first, then do the modifications on my next week off (which probably won't be till January).


I should still be able to get the Stromer motor fixed up and built into a wheel and installed on the right side (it'll still take some modification of the right side outboard dropouts, but not much).

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Oct 23 2019 2:44am

All I got done on the trike today was to verify ther'es an issue with the CA settings (it thinks it's set to 99A, when it should be at least twice that), but it shouldn't cause a cutout, because current still doesn't peak nearly that high. Fixed the settings but it now shows 0A and 0W in the limit page of settings. :? Haven't had a chance to raod test it for cutouts yet.

I did get the spare refrigerator cleaned up and working, though I still have to stick some spare magnets into the gasket to make it seal right in a few spots. Took til about 3pm to finish it though.




I suspect there may be a problem with the CA causing settings to change from what I leave them at, but I haven't been able to nail it down. Might be a firwmare bug rather than a hardware problem; it's rare enough I haven't noticed it happen but maybe twice, and seems random.

I have at least once before now had system behavior change some time after I'd last updated it's settings (via the Setup Program and USB-serial cable from the Windows laptop). I suspect this has happened again, causing those cutouts, but I'm still testing to find what the specific problem is that causes them within the CA settings. Suspect it has to do with the CA setup menus showing only 99A and 0W for current and power limits, when I know that I programmed it to have effectively no limits, by leaving those at the maximum allowed in the setup program fields (which itself is another wierd issue). When I read the CA, settings in the setup program showed 99A and 50000w. (rather than the 99A and 0W on the CA itself)

So far I've read and saved the existing CA settings on the PC first, and then updated the settings and wrote them to the CA, but the setup program itself (same as the latest version on the CA info page) won't let me change the current limit back to what it should be, which was at least 900A (pretty sure it had been higher), and it only lets me put 200A in there max, even in the OEM limits section. If I have it in high range mode it'll go to 2000A, but not in low range mode. (I have to use low range mode now, and a standard Grin 1mohm shunt, because of long delays in the system in high range mode causing dangerous behavior).

But the CA itself doesn't show the 200A or 50kw limits, it now shows 0A and 0W as limits. I haven't road tested it to see if the CA still shuts down the throttle output under high load (which, BTW, still never exceeded the amp limit the CA did have).

Anyway, the CA thing will require more stuff to narrow down the problem; it may just be another bug in the firmware (whatever the latest version is, 3.13 I think). I'm more concerned with the controller problem(s), because I can work around the CA easily enough (though it means I can't use it's limiting/control features while I do that).

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Oct 24 2019 12:04am

Took a while, but I found the direct cause of the cutouts--the CA was throwing a throttle error, and this was because the throttle limit/error voltage was below what the throttle was putting out by not quite a tenth of a volt. However...I don't see why the throttle's output voltage would change from what it was.

The possibility exists that this setting "changed on it's own", like the current limit appears to have, but I haven't dug back thru previous setup files to see what it started out as, vs what it was when I read out the settings last night, to verify whether it has changed or not.

I'll have to investigate this further as time permits, but ATM it's fixed, and the trike is rideable in pass-thru mode again (so it can limit speed, etc via the presets).

I also experimented with other things, and found the problem with the dangerous delay in current throttle modes (where it would take many seconds to ramp up to wherever I put the throttle). The A gain was 5, as was the W gain. Upping the A gain to 905 (quick easy experiment) made for instant response, but it was uncontrollable; kept dividing that by around two until I got down to 45, where it works reasonably well. I'm still refining it.

I tried power throttle, but it goes from too much delay in response at 2.0 W gain to uncontrollable at low throttle at 2.5-3.0. Can't seem to find a happy medium, so sticking with current throttle to experiment with that (vs Pass thru which just gives speed throttle via the Grinfineon and generic controllers), to see if I can work out more controllable low-throttle usage, since both controllers on one throttle with the CA in passthru or bypass mode is enough torque to push my head back if I run it up quickly from a stop. ;)


I also tested proportional regen via the CA's method of ebrake into the CA, and using throttle to modulate the regen. It does work, but without both Grinfineons I can't really judge if it's sufficient braking force, as the generic 15fet is just on/off and is pretty powerful regen. It still feels like it pulls to the side with the generic, even with full force on the grinfineon's regen at full throttle with ebrake held.

But trying to use the throttle and hte ebrake takes way too long, too much reaction time. So I will go ahead and build the cable-operated voltage control for the proportional regen that doesn't use the CA for it, but rather uses the ebrake signal to trigger a relay to disconect the actual throttle signal from the controllers, and connect the COVC signal to them instead.

The COVC will probably use a potentiometer in place of the magnet disc inside those cable operated throttle units, and then a voltage divider on the 5v output from one of the controllers with the pot to give a 0.8v-0v signal range, for the amount of cable pull the brake lever will do. (using a pulley similar to the Travel Agent if necessary).

I'd rather do it directly on the lever rather than an electro-mechanical "contraption", but I haven't figured out an easy way that would also be reliable, that wouldn't require any active electronics, just passive components. So this is the "simplest" way I've come up with so far.



The brake housing and cables arrived, so they're ready once I get the torque plates / disc mounts designed and made. THought I took pics of them but dont' seem to have them on the card, have to do it again.



I spent another couple hours on the fridge today, though, because the main fan for the coils and compressor siezed up, and wasn't fixable, so I dug thru stuff for some 115VAC impedance-protected server fans that can be controlled directly by the fridge's wiring, and made up a wiring harness to plug them into the fridge's connector, mounted them to the base back of the fridge, and now it's going again, keeping stuff cold like it's supposed to. I stillneed to add some magnets to the gasket here and there, but not happening yet.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Oct 26 2019 2:14am

First work commute after my week off went ok until the last mile or so going home, when the Shimano333 IGH began to self-disassemble again, jamming the pedals. I happened to have run across one of the Sachs Torqueedo IGHs during my days off, though not the shifter, so since I really didn't want ot have to deal with teh Shimano's problems anymore I spent a few hours tonight taking the Shimano off, cutting the welded-on sprocket off the Shimano's spoke flange, modifying it's inner circumference to fit the slightly larger diameter Sachs, welding it to the Sachs flange, moving the input sprocket over from the Shimano to the Sachs, and mounting the Sachs in place of the Shimano.

While looking for a bracket i could bolt or clamp to the frame to secure the torque arm for what I thought was the whole hub (but turns out to only be for the coaster brake that I don't need), I found the shifter chain/pull rod and cable and shifter for the Sachs, htough I dind't have time/energy to replace the cable in it with a long enough one to reach the handlebars, so the shifter is not yet installed, and the hub is just in it's 1:1 default gear.

I alsolooked for a 9mm wrench I could use as a torque arm for the hub itself, since the Shimano hub has now trashed the "dropouts" in the frame enough to be unable to help with the Sachs, but it turns out I don't have a 9mm. I have 5, 6, 7, 8, and many 10s, some 11s, 12s, and higher, but no 9s. :?

So I took one of the several 5/16s and slowly carefully widened it with the angle grinder, until it was a tap-on fit for the Sachs axle (which is 9mm, not 10mm for whatever reason). HOse clamped that to the frame along with the brake torque arm, for now (will make a bolt-on tab welded to the frame later, for both of these).

If I find a disasembly diagram for the Sachs and it turns out to be aeasy to remove the brake torque arm, I'm going to do that, because it prevents me from being able to backpedal to reposition the cranks for starting up from a stop. (not that I can handle the force necessary to do that completely on my own, especially in the 1:1 gear, unless the entire motor system fails, because it hurts quite a lot, but I need to be *able* to do it if stuff fails).



Also, after around half of my commute *to* work, I switched the CA back to Pass-Thru throttle mode, because it's MUCH MUCH MUCH more controllable than Current or Power modes. I can find no combination of settings / values that doesn't just surge massive power at low throttle values in either of those modes, without creating delays in the throttle response, which just make the problem worse (because with any delay at all, I just keep pushing harder on throttle trying to get it to do something, anything, and hten when it does start doing it it's a big surge, then I bakc off, and it cuts power, etc etc.).

In Pass-thru, at least I'm directly controlling the PWM with the throttle position, no perceptible delay, so i can finely control the power at low or high throttle values, makign it possible to safely navigate parking lots, etc. where speeds must be low and acceleration slow and smooth, not jumpy and surgy.

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Oct 26 2019 10:43pm

The Sachs IGH works great so far (still just in 1:1, till I recable the shifter and mount it).

No jamming, no chain jumps, etc. On this IGH the input sprocket lines up with the center crank sprocket, rather than the small one at the left, which should make the chainline better for when I add a front derailer someday.


Kirin still really realy wants to go with me to work, and is super excited when I get home, and sticks with me the whole time I'm home so I can't get away without her knowing about it. :)

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by amberwolf » Oct 28 2019 1:25am

On trhe way home from work tongith, the whole lighting system turned off and back on numerous times. Didn't seem to coincide with bumps, turns, vibration, stops, starts. etc., so I don't know for sure what caused it.

I opened up the side pane of the front triangle and checked all the connections in there, as well as the main PP45 andersons, etc., to teh pack inside the cargo seatbox, and found no problems. Reaseated them all anyway.

No overheating on the DC-DC that turns on the relay for the lighting system (when the main pack is turned on), but I opened up the casing and left it off, just in case.

I have had the CA reset when turnign the headlight off sometimes, so while I had it open, I added diodes across all the relay coils, and that is fixed now.

poked and prodded at all the cabling everywhere with teh ligths on, and never got a blink...so I dunno.

Either it's fixed, or it'l l come back again at some point. :/

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Re: The SB Cruiser: Amberwolf&Dogman's 2WD CargoTrike&DogCarrier

Post by The fingers » Oct 28 2019 2:28am

Always good to have that flashlight, just in case. :wink:
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