Have about 110 miles on my project now. Started to hear a funny clicking/tapping noise at speed. Today I checked it out and found spinning the wheel off the ground made no noise, but with load the noise is there. After a bit of checking, it turns out those heavy spokes were loosening up. Went around rim and tightened the loosest, making sure not to pull rim out of round. After that, inspection made me think all the spokes were not very tight. So then gave every spoke a 1/2 turn. Rim is still straight, and noise is completely gone. I was surprised how loose the spokes seemed right out of the box, but assumed its because they are nearly twice as thick as a standard bike spoke. Guess they just worked loose and hopefully will have taken their set and will stay tight for a long while.
After 100 miles, started hearing funny noises.
- Thread starter Mark42
- Start date
bowlofsalad
100 kW
Mark42 said:
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http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00H49Q4KU/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00H49Q4KU&linkCode=as2&tag=xbnijgbr-20&linkId=ZI7SA5KWXPQBTHLS
These videos on wheel building and ideas related are worth a watch.
In my mind, the spokes are sort of like a glue that keeps things in place, holds the wheel together, but the spokes really only work if they are under tension. This tension is incredibly important, and this tension also must be pretty high. As the wheel turns the spokes go under varying degrees of stress and literally loosen and tighten as the you move with the wheel. Part of what helps keep a rim true and the spokes under tension is a spokes ability to stretch. This stretching is extremely important and the reason why using very thick spokes won't help make a bicycle wheel stronger. A very thick spoke is indeed stronger, but -only- if it can stretch enough, and the amount of tension a 12 or 13 gauge spoke needs to stretch appropriately compared to say a 14/15/14 spoke is substantially higher, more than most if not all bicycle wheels can handle without buckling. This is why in most circumstances you probably want to use a 13/14 spoke or a 14/15/14 spoke in an electric bicycle wheel.
I am sure you might guess as to what I am leading towards, but I am saying you should rebuild that wheel with thinner spokes, they will loosen again and likely end up breaking.
Something I am considering trying myself is using sapim polyax nipple washers(assuming they are necessary for the angle advantage) with sapim secure lock nipples. My hope is that a nice high amount of spoke tension with a light hub motor and locking spoke nipples will make for a wheel that is very long lasting requiring very little, if any, maintenance.
Thats for that info. I was not aware of the spoke stretch issue. I just went out and checked the spokes again, and they are far from being as tight as a standard spoke. But some were very loose. The rim is a heavy duty double wall rim with reinforcing rings on the spoke holes. I suspect some of the rings probably fully compressed under the stress leaving the spoke loose. Going for a 14 mile ride for groceries as soon as my phone is fully charged. Will see if the noise comes back after a return run with another 20 lbs or so of groceries on the back wheel.
(Unwanted advice and information removed)
docnjoj
1 GW
14 gauge or 13/14 butted are the best for bicycle rims. Motorcycle rims get 12 gauge or thicker. I like Sapim spokes from John Rob Holmes at Holmes Hobbies. Not the cheapest but he knows wheels.
otherDoc
otherDoc
The ebike kit came with the hub motor laced to a double wall rim. It also has reinforcement rings where the spoke nuts come through the rim. I am sure this kit was designed to handle the torque that a 1000 watt motor can dish out. Also, the heavy gauge spokes are used to handle the torque of an ebike motor. There is no reason to re-lace the hub/rim with thinner, cheaper spokes. No doubt they will break. These very stout spokes are what the manufacturer installed (albit not very tight) for a very good reason. Even after "tightening" these spokes, they are still rather loose. IE I can easily pull a spoke and listen to how loose it is compared to the front (aka standard) spokes.
Any who.... After a 15 mile ride this morning the spokes make no noise. The bike rides smooth. And I have no worries about spokes breaking.
BTW, I pulled up to a cafe this morning and got some food and drink to go. Outside there were 5 adult men all over 50 looking at my bike. They asked me about it. Gave them the basic rundown of electric bike kits and what you can get for under $1000 kit, battery and bike. I had one offer for my bike. Guy was willing to pay $2000 for it especially seeing as it had that "old school" look from the late 50's that he liked so much. In hindsight, I should have taken his offer......
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Any who.... After a 15 mile ride this morning the spokes make no noise. The bike rides smooth. And I have no worries about spokes breaking.
BTW, I pulled up to a cafe this morning and got some food and drink to go. Outside there were 5 adult men all over 50 looking at my bike. They asked me about it. Gave them the basic rundown of electric bike kits and what you can get for under $1000 kit, battery and bike. I had one offer for my bike. Guy was willing to pay $2000 for it especially seeing as it had that "old school" look from the late 50's that he liked so much. In hindsight, I should have taken his offer......
"
bowlofsalad
100 kW
Mark42 said:
Thinner spokes, especially when comparing the spokes that came with your wheel to something else you could buy, aren't necessarily cheaper. Try to buy replacement 12 gauge spokes from whomever you purchased your wheel from, then go try to buy the same length spokes in dt swiss alpine iii 13/15/14 spokes and see which is cheaper. I'd bet you money on which wheel would last longer and need less maintenance.
I understand precisely what you are saying in using 12 gauge spokes, but your assumptions are mistaken and based on false economy, the 12 gauge spoke will not work better in your situation (unless you are truly using a rim made and meant for motorcycles and are using tensions to match) over a straight 13 or 14 and thinner because of the stretching notion I attempted to describe, 15 miles is not 1500 miles or 15,000 miles, your ears aren't a perfect tool to the subtlety of spoke tension, it's insanely likely that your wheel simply wasn't stress relieved and that was what you were hearing. A spoked wheel works a bit differently than you imagine. Explaining all of this better than I already have will be a bit difficult without deeper illustrations and several pages of written word, but the videos I left links to do a great job of explaining the science and theory as well as offer other options to explanations. I seriously recommend you check out those videos I left a link to and watch them through a few times, he gives an excellent explanation of many finer details of wheel building that you don't yet understand. Without reading a few books and watching some dedicated video on this subject it's hard for you or anyone to have a discussion on spoke based wheel.
Mark42 said:
Sounds more like an opportunity to start up a side business and offer to build an electric bicycle for him and others locally. Seriously, next time someone asks to buy your bike, offer to convert one for them, that's what I'd do at least, but we all approach situations with our own attitudes and per-conceptions. Either it's an opportunity or a burden, depends on how you look at things and hold your attitude. For example, I am looking at this discussion as an opportunity to simply expand the hobby or even lifestyle that I cherish, electric bicycles, through sharing important and useful knowledge with you and others. I seriously want electric bicycles to be used by many and for them to be viewed with a very high esteem.
I feel that in order to take electric bicycles seriously for yourself and others, reliability is of extreme importance, you shouldn't be dealing with wheels that come out of true in short distances, you shouldn't worry about breaking spokes. This is the perspective that I look to when I look at electric bicycles, the approach I take, reliability. If you were dealing with 20,000w+ of power, maybe I'd be telling you to use 12g spokes with a motor with a motorcycle rim. The bottom line is, most of what you will read online is pretty vague and maybe even a anecdotal, I've read a lot of resources on the subject of wheel building and so far those videos I've linked to are the best overall, the only thing I'd change about those videos is measuring ERD(effective rim diameter), the best technique I've come across comes from the book found at wheelpro.co.uk, this book is also worth a read if you are serious about wheel building. I am not trying to stop you from doing what you want to do, but before you make another post about how to build wheels and the best techniques and methods for them, I highly recommend reading and watching these resources. It probably sounds costly, but it's all cheaper than the cost than to pay someone to build a single wheel for you and you gain an immense amount of knowledge on the subject, in other words (to me) these things are basically free. It's like looking at the cost of materials and tools to do a job yourself in your free time, you can view them as a costly expense or you can view them as cheap or free because the labor is on you and the most costly portion of many things.
(Unwanted advice and information removed)
dogman dan
1 PW
Sounds like you bought the kit from us. Heavy spoke, eyelets on the rim. My experience with that brand of kit is that the spokes will initially loosen, then if you just keep them reasonably tight, they will settle in and stop loosening so much.
This is, IMO, not the same as the spoke stretch, or elasticity discussed above. It's more like the spoke settling in as you ride the first few hundred miles. The nipples deform every so slightly, and possibly some bending at the elbow, both of which lengthen the spoke just a tiny bit.
Keep your spokes tight, but not as tight as they really should be for a spoke that thick. The eyelets will help the rim stand it, but it won't stand it if you just crank away till the rim cracks. The wheel will hold up fine if you just keep the spokes from being overly loose. It won't be as elastic as a wheel with thinner, high quality spokes, but it will hold up fine. I've put a shitload of miles on these E bikekit wheels without needing to respoke. They are the thick spokes, but not the cheesy cheap ones that many have trouble with, when they buy the cheap kit from ebay or amazon.
This is, IMO, not the same as the spoke stretch, or elasticity discussed above. It's more like the spoke settling in as you ride the first few hundred miles. The nipples deform every so slightly, and possibly some bending at the elbow, both of which lengthen the spoke just a tiny bit.
Keep your spokes tight, but not as tight as they really should be for a spoke that thick. The eyelets will help the rim stand it, but it won't stand it if you just crank away till the rim cracks. The wheel will hold up fine if you just keep the spokes from being overly loose. It won't be as elastic as a wheel with thinner, high quality spokes, but it will hold up fine. I've put a shitload of miles on these E bikekit wheels without needing to respoke. They are the thick spokes, but not the cheesy cheap ones that many have trouble with, when they buy the cheap kit from ebay or amazon.
Dogman, Thanks for that info. Yes, the spokes do seem rather loose compared to regular bike spokes. So I only tightened them all a bit, but still loose enough that when you grab one with two fingers, its easy to push/pull the spoke and it bends easily. Does that seem right?
I dont understand what all the brau ha ha is all about with the spokes getting loose. I have read that a few other buyers experienced the same thing. I think its just a "break in" period thing that needs to be addressed as it happens. No need to re-spoke or get bigger, stronger rims or add additional eyelets. These rims are already double wall and already come with eyelet reinforcements. Stop guessing and pay attention to what I posted earlier. I am a newbie to ebikes but have been riding bicycles , dirt bikes and street bikes my whole life. I am now 56 years old. I have a feel for spokes.
Thank you for your input.
Thank you for your input.
dogman dan
1 PW
Tighten up any spokes that have worked loose, and it should settle down and keep it's true better soon. Most of the stretch, or the spoke settling into the nipple holes or whatever it is should diminish a lot after the first few hundred miles.
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