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BBSHD or Cyclone 3kW?
- Thread starter JayCee
- Start date
jastill said:Is this true?
So likely (46'ish/12) * max500 rpms, at 52V.
So roughly 125 max RPMs, given a 46t front chainring.
Correct?
Thanks
Yes, ~130rpm.
Remember, the higher rpm for the given wattage, the lower the torque on the chain, which is a good thing. So I would go with the smallest chainring possible.
Grantmac
10 kW
I believe the 3Kw cyclone is 5:1 and either a 13t or 14t front to 44t.
Running a smaller chain ring puts more torque into the chain, better to upsize on the rear sprocket and definitely not try to peddle along.
Running a smaller chain ring puts more torque into the chain, better to upsize on the rear sprocket and definitely not try to peddle along.
Grantmac said:I believe the 3Kw cyclone is 5:1 and either a 13t or 14t front to 44t.
Running a smaller chain ring puts more torque into the chain, better to upsize on the rear sprocket and definitely not try to peddle along.
It is 6:1.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=200#p1147701
Grantmac said:Running a smaller chain ring puts more torque into the chain
For the same wattage and same system otherwise, the complete opposite is true, for the reasons of: elementary physics.
Power (kW) = Torque (N.m) x Speed (RPM) / 9.5488
With a smaller cog up front, for the same road speed the motor will be revving higher.
Chain will be moving faster while the bike is doing the same speed on the road (same wattage), torque on chain will be less.
If you are worried about the number of chain teeth engaged, the bigger the chainring is, the bigger the gear ratio is, the bigger load it will bear. So a 44t will have double the torque on it as a 22t. Pointless to go big for that reason here.
Grantmac said:better to upsize on the rear sprocket and definitely not try to peddle along.
You realize upsizing the rear or downsizing the front cog do the exact same thing? So which one is it?
Grantmac
10 kW
Well crap, I was basing a future build on it being 5:1 which would just barely allow direct drive to an IGH (12.5:1 total reduction).
As for chain life I'd go bigger on the rear every time for increased teeth engaged. The only time I've broken a cyclone chain was with a smaller front running to a 16t rear, could have been the chain in question was ready to go though.
As for chain life I'd go bigger on the rear every time for increased teeth engaged. The only time I've broken a cyclone chain was with a smaller front running to a 16t rear, could have been the chain in question was ready to go though.
Grantmac said:Well crap, I was basing a future build on it being 5:1 which would just barely allow direct drive to an IGH (12.5:1 total reduction).
As for chain life I'd go bigger on the rear every time for increased teeth engaged. The only time I've broken a cyclone chain was with a smaller front running to a 16t rear, could have been the chain in question was ready to go though.
Anything below 24 rear is a bad idea on a cyclone. Personally I run between (30 front 30 rear) 6:1 total and (30 front 50 rear) 10:1 total. The less reduction you do the less input torque on the IGH. But with a two stage reduction it will be hard to pull off either way.
Grantmac
10 kW
You're total reduction is from the gearbox output correct?
My current setup of 1:6, 14:44, 44:32 puts total reduction at ~13.7:1 which is just barely possible using 219 sprockets direct into a 3spd IGH. I think the motor could handle a taller gear in my setup but the chain certain can't.
My current setup of 1:6, 14:44, 44:32 puts total reduction at ~13.7:1 which is just barely possible using 219 sprockets direct into a 3spd IGH. I think the motor could handle a taller gear in my setup but the chain certain can't.
Grantmac said:You're total reduction is from the gearbox output correct?
My current setup of 1:6, 14:44, 44:32 puts total reduction at ~13.7:1 which is just barely possible using 219 sprockets direct into a 3spd IGH. I think the motor could handle a taller gear in my setup but the chain certain can't.
My reduction has the 1:6 gearbox included yes.
https://electrotransport.ru/ussr/index.php?topic=34238.0
80A controller, they were approaching 80nm.
Going by these tables, the motor produces about 1nm per A. So if you have the 60A controller, with a 14:44 at the front the chainring will already be seeing 60*(44/14) = ~190nm, that is too much for most IGHs.
It would be good if you only have a 40A or even better if you have a much smaller chainring, if its BCD 104, which you should be able to use, they go down to 30t. So at 60A you would only see 60*(30/14)= 130nm, which should be survivable for some length.
https://elite-motor.com/pub/media/c...7517cf01e65c009f6943c2b1e9/1/6/1680wkit_2.jpg
Cyclone sells these chainrings with a triple wheel setup, the 5 big holes are the bcd 104 holes, you can use any $15 30t cog from ebay.
Grantmac
10 kW
So you are running direct from the gearbox output to the rear wheel?
I've got the 40a controller but if the motor can take it I may shunt mod it for ~60a so I can pull a bit taller gear. My controller also doesn't seem to have a high speed switch wire like some do, or else the colors are different and I haven't been able to figure them out (was bought used with most connectors cut off).
I've got the 40a controller but if the motor can take it I may shunt mod it for ~60a so I can pull a bit taller gear. My controller also doesn't seem to have a high speed switch wire like some do, or else the colors are different and I haven't been able to figure them out (was bought used with most connectors cut off).
Grantmac said:So you are running direct from the gearbox output to the rear wheel?
I've got the 40a controller but if the motor can take it I may shunt mod it for ~60a so I can pull a bit taller gear. My controller also doesn't seem to have a high speed switch wire like some do, or else the colors are different and I haven't been able to figure them out (was bought used with most connectors cut off).
Yes, I have this motor with a specialized frame.
http://www.cyclone-tw.com/Coaxial.html
The motor and controller can take 60a for sure, your battery needs to be able to do it.
But shunting it to do exactly 60a won't be, you can solder just 1/4th of the two shunts and it should be about right.
High speed switch is black, blue, pink 3 wire connector. But really it is just field weakening, it raises the max rpm while being less efficient, it does not make the motor stronger.
Grantmac
10 kW
I don't think the co-axle and standard 3Kw have much in common in terms of gearbox unless I'm quite mistaken.
10:1 would be extremely tall gearing for the 3kw. I'd stall it on most hills I'm riding, but I've only got 40a to play with. Perhaps 60a could pull it.
10:1 would be extremely tall gearing for the 3kw. I'd stall it on most hills I'm riding, but I've only got 40a to play with. Perhaps 60a could pull it.
Grantmac said:I don't think the co-axle and standard 3Kw have much in common in terms of gearbox unless I'm quite mistaken.
10:1 would be extremely tall gearing for the 3kw. I'd stall it on most hills I'm riding, but I've only got 40a to play with. Perhaps 60a could pull it.
The coaxial is a 4kw cyclone repacked, and the 4kw cyclone is just a wider 3kw cyclone, the gearbox and everything are the same, it just has the axle coming out on both sides.
For me the first gear ends at 42kph, 26mph, without the high speed option that adds +15%. I have 72v 80 amp so I can do anything in that gear, the rest are geared taller. I don't miss the smaller speeds one bit.
If you can get the first speed down to 35kph, 21mph, you should be fine with 60A.
Grantmac
10 kW
So 10:1 only gets you to 26mph on 72v?
I was hoping to see 30mph in one gear that can also climb anything that I can keep the front end on the ground during. Not continuously but for 10s.
My pack can easily output 80-100a for short bursts and I have little interest in going faster than 35mph. Think a trials motorcycle kind of application.
The 4kw motor might suit my needs better.
I was hoping to see 30mph in one gear that can also climb anything that I can keep the front end on the ground during. Not continuously but for 10s.
My pack can easily output 80-100a for short bursts and I have little interest in going faster than 35mph. Think a trials motorcycle kind of application.
The 4kw motor might suit my needs better.
Grantmac said:So 10:1 only gets you to 26mph on 72v?
I was hoping to see 30mph in one gear that can also climb anything that I can keep the front end on the ground during. Not continuously but for 10s.
My pack can easily output 80-100a for short bursts and I have little interest in going faster than 35mph. Think a trials motorcycle kind of application.
The 4kw motor might suit my needs better.
Yes, with a half-ish charge and high speed mode off, 26mph is right. When I am off road I don't change gears as it can go up to 33mph with high speed mode and don't need more.
The 4kw motor is great if you want to go above 50a. The core is said to be ~30% wider.
Grantmac
10 kW
Supposedly the 3kw will take 4.5-5kw in bursts no problem, I imagine the bigger motor can do an easy 6kw.
Adjusting the shunt for 50a and riding it conservatively is probably the approach I'll take. When I need maximum amps it's usually not for long which is also limited by battery sag.
Adjusting the shunt for 50a and riding it conservatively is probably the approach I'll take. When I need maximum amps it's usually not for long which is also limited by battery sag.
Grantmac said:Supposedly the 3kw will take 4.5-5kw in bursts no problem, I imagine the bigger motor can do an easy 6kw.
Adjusting the shunt for 50a and riding it conservatively is probably the approach I'll take. When I need maximum amps it's usually not for long which is also limited by battery sag.
The stock controller can take at least 65A some use it well above. But like I wrote, soldering a bit on the first third from the base will bring you to that number.
From the russian tests, the 3kw drops in efficiency sharply approaching 80A, I guess the 4kw would stay good until close to 100A.
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