Bafang M500/M600 thread

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Map Paddy » Jan 08 2020 7:23pm

Map Paddy wrote:
Nov 25 2019 10:23pm
e0664cfa366270c8df064b7fabaf2d07_40.jpgI tried to pull chain In reverse is at least 3 times the normal restiance does this mean it's the fets o the board? Here is pic of battery terminals
It was blown controller Frey sent me a new motor it works fine but dont trust the terminals on battery after damage what should I do to replace ?

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by tsellers » Jan 08 2020 10:24pm

Can you post a picture of your battery terminals?
Regards, John

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Map Paddy » Jan 09 2020 1:32am

I posted picture on page 4 of tread there melted from.when controller blew every little noise has me worried now I'm going to sea otter maybe I can see Frey there and see if I can get a second and use other as spare

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by tsellers » Jan 09 2020 2:39am

The section in your picture of the battery end cap on Page 4 can be easily removed and replaced. Take the end cap off the battery pack by removing the 4 screws. After you unsolder the contact points, you can remove the 2 screws and pop that contact panel out. Get Frey to sell you a new panel and send it via ePacket, which should just cost a few bucks, and you can screw the new one in and then resolder the contact points.
Regards, John

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Animalector » Jan 09 2020 2:41am

I just noticed sea otter classic won't allow Bafang ebikes. Bosch Yamaha Shimano fazua only

Interesting
Andy

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Kepler » Jan 09 2020 3:14am

That's ridiculous. An m600 is no more powerful then any of those other brands. As long as the speed limit is proven and complies, then there shouldnt be an issue. I have raced stock ebikes in turbo mode and me in the highest power setting and up to 25km (actually typically 27km), the bikes are typically equal.
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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Animalector » Jan 09 2020 3:35am

I'm even running the m500... I might email them just to see if they would consider it. Maybe it was too so with the trade restrictions USA and China?

Australia FTW :bigthumb:

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by kite_rider » Feb 02 2020 9:04pm

New to this thread now that I have the Luna X1. I'm not too stoked about the latency between the torque sensor and the motor power output. In other words, the custom M600 Luna Ludi setup feels like it has too much delay between my pedaling and the power delivery to the wheel.

I can get used to this in general, but it's really unsettling when I'm riding in really technical terrain (which the X1 is excellent for in most other respects). I'm thinking that this could be managed a few different ways;
1. (Preferred solution) tinker around with the settings on the torque sensor to get it to respond faster to the applied torque (reduce the latency). After reading through this thread I was hoping to see more traffic about tuning this sensor, but didn't see it. Has anyone been able to adjust the torque sensor?
2. (Suggested by another X1 owner) Install an Ebrake to cut off the power if needed. I use this method a fair amount on my modified BBS02. I've seen some posts talking about plugging in a standard Bafang Ebrake into port 2 on the M600 but am not sure if anyone has done this yet or not. In my case I would be installing the magnet and sensor onto the existing Guide R brake (which looks tricky to do). I'd love to hear how this went before I order one of these parts.

Thanks!

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Tom » Feb 03 2020 1:07am

I doubt Luna did anything to tune the M600 (despite what they claim). Unfortunately you can't program the M600 like you can the other Bafang mid-drives. See post #3 of this thread. You can't even program the max speed. You have to buy it pre-programmed to 20mph or 28mph. Kind of ridiculous. Don't know what Bafang was thinking.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by kite_rider » Feb 03 2020 1:59pm

The lack of any end user programmability and the proprietary cranks are starting to make the M600 look like it has some major flaws (for at least the DIY types like myself).

I had some hope for the BESST tool, until I watched a YouTube video on it (from Bafang - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH9QkwNsKx4). Have to say, it was pretty creepy. I can't figure out what it actually does or why a dealer would even want to invest in one. It seems to highlight the claims the Trump administration has against Huawei with regard to tracking and monitoring all of the installed equipment world wide (see 1:36) - and I hate the Trump administration.

So, like Tom, I'm also wondering what Bafang was thinking? Also still curious if anyone has been able to just 'plug and play' an ebrake on this motor. Maybe that has to be pre-programmed at the factory too?

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by formula101 » Feb 05 2020 5:23pm

Animalector wrote:
Jan 09 2020 2:41am
I just noticed sea otter classic won't allow Bafang ebikes. Bosch Yamaha Shimano fazua only

Interesting
Andy
Whoa. Seriously? That means Frey can't bring bikes, at least not to demo. Do you have a link? BTW, there are many sea otter classics now.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by waynebergman » Feb 05 2020 6:54pm

Hey Kite_rider....
Regarding the programing I think the one main thing that would really help especially if you are running a throttle is if the M600 would work like the HD1000 in the way you can have max throttle overide any low power setting you are running for you pedal assist. If you dont have a throttle you will not get smooth anything when it comes to the higher pedal assist settings, so the tips below only really appy if you have a throttle and preferable a usable twist throttle. The trigger stuff from Bafang is junk.

If the throttle was able to give max power even with low pedal assist setting you could noodle around very smoothly and in a controlled fashion when using pedal assist set to a lower level and then if you hit the throttle you get the power you are wanting and could smoothly tap into the systems max power that is on hand.But the drive is not programed like the HD1000 so the problem comes when you think you will need the bigger power for a stretch of trail or hill climb then you dial up your pedal assist level to max then it is less than smooth. One work around if you have a throttle is dial up the pedal assist power level and get used to nursing the throttle a very low level when riding. This low throttle input overides the pedal assist levels and lets you give human pedal input with out jumpy acceeleration and then hit the throttle with your bursts of power when you need it.This works because as soon as amps flow when turning on the throttle even at very low levels this completly overides the pedal assist setttings as far a power from the torque sensing. So even if you hit the pedals hard with the power level set at 5 , if you have your throttle just giving a little bit of power it dumbs down the pedal assist and completly overides the pedal assist input, only human power will go through the system until the throttle getts dialed up higher. This kind of works but it would still be better if you could have the pedal assist set to a lower power level knowing you have full power at hand with the throttle when needed then you would NOT need to nurse the throttle at very low levels until you need the full throttle. NOt sure if this makes any sense but one more good reason to have a smooth throttle on this system. The trigger throttle I got on mine was junk, kind of like an on off switch, a decent twist throttle is a must in my opinion.
ON my thread I have documented the switching out of my stock Bafang throttle to a hacked Luna twist and I highly recomend this mod. See towards the end of page two on this thread if you are interested at all ... viewtopic.php?f=28&t=96461&start=25

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by tsellers » Feb 05 2020 8:13pm

Interesting, I did not realize the OEM thumb throttle on my Frey could be improved on, I haven't thought much about it. However, as you note, I use it all the time when I need assistance on short steep pitches, and it really helps when you want to power out of deep snow on the side of a packed trail. The one thing I would like to adapt it for would be to have a mode similar to my Giant Full-e which is a walk assist. On the Giant it is a terrible implementation in that you have to press it constantly so hard with your thumb my thumb gives out after a few minutes, any suggestions for adapting the throttle for a walk assist mode?
Regards, John

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by kite_rider » Feb 06 2020 1:29am

Wayne, that's a pretty fascinating explanation - and honestly I'll need to let it soak in a bit and go out and experiment with it to make sure I'm understanding what you are saying. Frankly, it's rather counterintuitive to how I would expect to use a throttle.

First, let me state that the majority of my ebike riding is on a juiced BBS02 setup on a heavy fat bike. I'm almost always riding with pedal assist and even though the power delivery isn't really matched to the power I'm putting into the pedals, it is somewhat predictable. When I'm in technical terrain I frequently pull the ebrake slightly to cut out power when I don't want to get slammed into rocks. Also, if I'm in a sticky situation I occasionally use the throttle to gain momentum before unusually short - but really steep sections of trail.

So my biggest issue with the Luna X1 was the delayed surge of power I was getting after I stopped pedalling. It was tricky to handle since the brakes don't cut it off like it does on the BBS02. If I understand you, I can modulate this by applying a very small amount of throttle in these areas so that I have constant and predictable amount of power at the wheel rather than the somewhat sporadic power from the torque sensor. Definitely something I will experiment with. To date, I've only used the throttle to help assist me with walking the bike through tricky terrain. On the positive side, the torque sensor and high power have helped me clean many of the short steep sections with pedal assist alone (rather than throttle). Note, I ride much more challenging terrain with the X1 than with my fat bike (named 'powder pig') due to the much better suspension and frame geometry.

Thanks again for the suggestion. I'll give it a try.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by waynebergman » Feb 06 2020 11:19am

And also kite_rider, as mentioned you need a decent throttle for this to work and be comfortable. Give it a try with what you have but if you see it as a work around for yourself you need to take the next step and wire in a decent throttle.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Deafcat » Feb 07 2020 11:53pm

Damn, this thread continues to bum me out about the M600, it seems like mechanically it has a lot of potential.. And has been let down severely with lack of programming access, lack of battery compatibility, and a bunch of stupid decisions even extending to the motor itself (Bafang-unique crank splines! I still can't get over that one).

Really hope you folks have better luck going forward, maybe Bafang smartens up and provides some firmware improvements, or controller revisions to bring some appeal back to this specific motor/platform. I'll definitely be looking elsewhere in the meantime, for integrated mid-drive solutions in 2020, besides continuing to run G510 Ultra (still the most well rounded thing out there).

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by tsellers » Feb 08 2020 12:14am

Interesting. Not sure what the reference "lack of battery compatibility," refers to. 52V perhaps? I've had lots of issues I've identified, but I was very happy with the fact that Frey gave me a discount for not buying a battery, but also sold me 3 empty battery packs at a very reasonable price so I could build my own rather than pay an additional $150.00 USD just to ship a battery I did not really want in the first place. Then I proceeded to build a 14S2P 52V battery from 21700 cells that works fine on the M600 (I also built a 48V battery from 18650 cells as well). One thing worth mentioning that may help others going forward however, I have noticed the M600 controller will not power on if SOC is greater than 58V. As the charger and BMS were set to terminate charge at 58.8v, I was able to address that by resetting the POT in the 52V charger at VAR2 to terminate charge at 57.4, which is what I want for increased battery life anyway. As I understand the BMS may not balance charge at that termination, I left the BMS exposed so I can manually measure the sense wires on a regular basis and manually balance the pack if so required. This work-around seems fairly painless for the ability to be able to use a 52V battery pack, so I fundamentally view the M600 as compatible with a 52V battery as long as you are comfortable with the above operational guidelines.
Regards, John

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Deafcat » Feb 08 2020 1:21am

Battery compatibility, as in, the inability to use any battery off the shelf with the M600... it needs to be a CANBUS-integrated pack, communicating with the M600 control, at least last I heard? Did Frey figure out a workaround then? Did those empty batt cases come with BMS in em? Might explain how they pulled it off.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by tsellers » Feb 08 2020 1:51am

Aren't all batteries that are 'in frame' integrated batteries unique to that bike? For example, the battery on my Giant Full-e does not fit other bikes either. The Frey M600 has 4 contact points at the bottom of the battery bay. 2 are positive and negative that come in from the charger port, and are shorted to the positive and negative primary contacts for the motor. As long as you supply the 48V to those points, everything works normally. When you build a battery, you factor a BMS of your choice into the build, it is part of building a battery pack. You can use any BMS that matches the battery you have built, or you can even choose not to use a BMS. (A bike will run on a battery pack that does not have a BMS) EG: you can use a bluetooth BMS if you prefer. I have 2 generic 48V packs from our other bikes, plus one 48V pack that I built from the empty case they gave me, and the 52V pack. All of those 4 packs are ones that I built, they have BMS with the balance function, and they all work fine. 3 of the packs are externally mounted, carried in a seatpost rack, and connect to the motor using one of the empty battery packs that functions as a 'battery eliminator'. That allows me to keep the battery that is in the seatpost bag warm with a liquid fuel handwarmer when the temps are -10 or worse.

To put things into perspective, I assume that if I approached Giant for example and asked to buy an empty battery pack for my Full-e so I could make my own battery eliminator they would tell me to go pound sand. In fact, I asked them for a pin-out for the mains connector last year, and they would not give it to me.

Sorry, I almost forgot, with respect to the Canbus question. There is no Canbus integration in the battery pack, you just need to supply the correct voltage to those positive and negative contact points, and the controller will then power on, and you can then proceed to connect your other tools to the bus if so desired.
Regards, John

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Deafcat » Feb 08 2020 2:09am

Sorry, by Integrated I mean specifically, electronically and software integrated. Nothing to do with the battery mechanically fitting into the frame, most batteries are frame-integrated from ebike OEMs (even the most common reention styles).

I'm aware of how BMS's play into the typical ebike pack, my concern was surrounding difficulty to use packs not supplied by Bafang, as this has been brought up as an issue numerous times before with the M600 platform... but may no longer be an issue, since it appears at least Frey has worked around it? Or Bafang dropped the bus integration... Or, it's only for EU units (this would make the most sense, regional variants, in order to enter that market).

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by tsellers » Feb 08 2020 2:22am

I see what you mean.

Indeed the Canbus integration issue notwithstanding, I guess all I can attest to is as long as you can supply anything in the range of 48 to 52 volt battery packs to those two points, the system has no other checks to see if the battery is proprietary, so nothing special is required in that respect. (Again, the only caveat being the 52V pack cannot exceed 58V at full charge). This is why you can just put any generic power source on your rack, and use one of their empty battery cases as a battery eliminator. There is nothing in those cases other than 4 blade contacts that interface with the contacts from the motor. Hope that addresses some part the question with respect to the battery concerns.
Regards, John

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by Bigwheel » Feb 08 2020 10:20pm

That’s good news tsellers and thanks for posting your findings.

I was under the impression from the start that the CanBus deal was necessary but glad it isn’t.

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by JBC » Feb 11 2020 7:14am

Hi, I have a bike built with the Bafang M600. I have only one short test run, everything seems to be functional, enough power.
But I want to install battery-powered lighting. The display shows the lights on - so I assume that the lights can be powered from the motor controller.
Does anyone know what a connector / pin is?
Or better, if someone had the whole wiring diagram.
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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by tsellers » Feb 11 2020 10:24am

I think the icon you are referring to is the backlight status of your controller display, which can be dimmed or disabled. On my bike, I bought it with the Shimano lights already installed. They are not activated via the controller, there is an on/off switch on the headlight. The tail light also has an integrated brake light. There is a daylight sensor embedded on the edge on the controller display panel that disables the headlights during daytime, and unfortunately it will also momentarily disable them if you pass under a streetlight, or you're wearing a headlamp and you look down at your controller while riding. I'm guessing that your headlight takes power branching from the mains circuit which is opened and closed by the daylight sensor in the controller display.
Regards, John

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Re: Bafang M500/M600 thread

Post by bradland » Feb 11 2020 12:40pm

Deafcat wrote:
Feb 08 2020 1:21am
Battery compatibility, as in, the inability to use any battery off the shelf with the M600... it needs to be a CANBUS-integrated pack, communicating with the M600 control, at least last I heard? Did Frey figure out a workaround then? Did those empty batt cases come with BMS in em? Might explain how they pulled it off.
I have an X-1, and when I pull the charge connector plate, there are only two wires connected to the charge plate: positive & negative. There are no CANBUS leads at the battery terminals whatsoever.

I also know someone who connected a 52V shrink-wrap pack directly to the XT-60 connector on the M600 and it worked fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2IPtda_LFo

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