Hardware temperature control tsdz2

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Elinx   10 kW

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by Elinx » May 13 2020 8:57am

NexusG has filled up entirely TSDZ2 with car engine oil for cooling purpose.

"It runs well and much quieter, even if I have a brass gear !
The oil plays both the role of coolant and lubricant.................
.........It doesn't avoid the increase of oil temperature at continuous high power (I was able to reach more than 80°C at 750W for long period)
But... the oil have a thermal inertia and it may prevent the winding to burn as there are in direct contact."

silentguy   100 W

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by silentguy » May 13 2020 9:12am

Doesn’t it leak out ?
Any chance of Fire ?

Elinx   10 kW

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by Elinx » May 15 2020 5:52pm

silentguy wrote:
May 13 2020 9:12am
Doesn’t it leak out ?
Any chance of Fire ?
NexusG didn't mentioned fire, but he talks about some leakage

"There's a small leak on the right side of the motor but this is because I didn't add silicone in the casing to prevent oil going from the left to the right side of the motor"

famichiki   100 W

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by famichiki » Jul 21 2020 12:00am

Elinx wrote:
May 07 2020 6:20pm
There are enough experiences that the temperature is more controlled down with easy filling the airgap between motor and covercase (about 4mm to 5mm) or maybe better the wiki method to optimize the contact between motor and the complete metal case.(2mm and 3mm).
Can someone please confirm if these are these the correct measurements for a good, contacting fit? Getting a bit confused here with the various different methods. :confused:
motor.jpg
motor.jpg (83.38 KiB) Viewed 1126 times

Elinx   10 kW

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by Elinx » Jul 21 2020 2:41pm

famichiki wrote:
Jul 21 2020 12:00am
.... are these the correct measurements for a good, contacting fit? Getting a bit confused here with the various different methods. ...
yes that are about the right thicknesses of the layers. 2 or 3 layers of 2mm on the stator and one layer of 2mm on top.
The silicon is a sort of sticky clay and must be a little under pressure, you can see that some has used 5mm too on the stator. (or even streched 10mm)
As said...Imho the wiki solution is more effective, because the heat will also be transported to the motorhousing and not only to the thin covercase.

famichiki   100 W

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by famichiki » Jul 21 2020 4:46pm

Elinx wrote:
Jul 21 2020 2:41pm
The silicon is a sort of sticky clay and must be a little under pressure, you can see that some has used 5mm too on the stator. (or even streched 10mm)
As said...Imho the wiki solution is more effective, because the heat will also be transported to the motorhousing and not only to the thin covercase.
Ok, thanks I'll consider additional doing these two procedures from the wiki. Have they also added thermal padding in the below photo? The wiki doesn't mention it, it only says to add paste around the outside.

I've looked at the paste I have here is intended for general electronics use. But I just looked up the specification and it's thermal conductivity is 0.9 W/mK. The wiki recommends 5 W/mK, so my paste seems like rubbish. Do you think it would be suitable? I don't know much about CPU paste etc that that all seems extremely expensive.
motor-heat-dissipation-step-2.jpg
motor-heat-dissipation-step-2.jpg (118.51 KiB) Viewed 1094 times
These pads look a lot thicker than the 2 and 3mm the wiki says to use, but perhaps the photo is deceiving. Is there really usually such a large air gap there under the motor? Will the motor screw down firmly into its usual position with these underneath? My concern is that it will be not, and the gears won't mesh properly.

Also, since these pads have adhesive on each side how are people stopping them from sticking to the case? It sounds like it would make it impossible to slide the cover back on and be difficult to remove it next time.
motor-heat-dissipation-step-3.jpg
motor-heat-dissipation-step-3.jpg (143.18 KiB) Viewed 1094 times

Elinx   10 kW

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by Elinx » Jul 21 2020 5:40pm

famichiki wrote:
Jul 21 2020 4:46pm
...
Also, since these pads have adhesive on each side how are people stopping them from sticking to the case? It sounds like it would make it impossible to slide the cover back on and be difficult to remove it next time.....
There is thermal conductive paste, putty and pads.
For best heat dissipation you must minimize airgaps and fill them with thermal conductive material. Try to use material with the highest conductivity, but realise that every solution will be better than air only.

Between the motorflanges you can put some paste or putty, without dissambling the motor, I think. It is less optimal, but better as nothing. On the picture it looks a silicon pad but isn't.

The gaps between the pads are spaces, needed if the pads deform under pressure.

To prevent unwanted sticking to the case or motor you can try aluminium, copper or kapton tape on one (housing) side.

famichiki   100 W

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by famichiki » Jul 24 2020 8:45pm

Does anyone have a cheap Chinese source for these thermal pads or a good enough equivalent?

AAB Cooling Thermopad 20x130x2 6 W / mK - 1 piece
AAB Cooling Thermopad 20x130x3 6 W / mK - 1 piece

Hard to find anything like that under $15 a piece here, so for those plus the paste it's very expensive. :(

Elinx   10 kW

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by Elinx » Jul 25 2020 7:43am

famichiki wrote:
Jul 24 2020 8:45pm
Does anyone have a cheap Chinese source for these thermal pads or a good enough equivalent?
...
equivalents for AAB are from Artic and Gelid.
Have you searched also at Ali ?

famichiki   100 W

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by famichiki » Jul 25 2020 8:35pm

Elinx wrote:
Jul 25 2020 7:43am
equivalents for AAB are from Artic and Gelid.
Have you searched also at Ali ?
Thanks those look very good but are not what I'd call cheap considering two are needed plus paste. I will have a poke around on there and see if I can find a compromise.

I wonder what exact size the gaps are though and if we can get away with thinner pads. Where the motor screws to the case, it looks like a flat piece of aluminium bar/sheet would be the ideal solution with a bit of thermal paste or adhesive applied. Someone needs to laser cut for a perfect fit and sell them. :wink:

Elinx   10 kW

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by Elinx » Jul 26 2020 6:17am

famichiki wrote:
Jul 25 2020 8:35pm
...
Thanks those look very good but are not what I'd call cheap ....
There are other options with no brand. But I don't know if the heat conductivity of 6W/mk is exaggerated.

In the wiki is mentioned that the gap between motor mount and case is 1.5mm. Thats why there is added 2mm pad with some compresion.

Doohickey   10 mW

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by Doohickey » Aug 02 2020 7:03am

Elinx wrote:
Jul 26 2020 6:17am
famichiki wrote:
Jul 25 2020 8:35pm
...
Thanks those look very good but are not what I'd call cheap ....
There are other options with no brand. But I don't know if the heat conductivity of 6W/mk is exaggerated.

In the wiki is mentioned that the gap between motor mount and case is 1.5mm. Thats why there is added 2mm pad with some compresion.
I have these ones and they definitely make a difference compared to nothing.

Is the spacing exactly 1.5mm? I wonder if it would be possible to use 1.5mm copper sheet + thermal paste instead of the pads (could use small pieces, or a big piece cut and sanded to the right shape) ..?

famichiki   100 W

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by famichiki » Aug 02 2020 7:24am

Doohickey wrote:
Aug 02 2020 7:03am
I have these ones and they definitely make a difference compared to nothing.

Is the spacing exactly 1.5mm? I wonder if it would be possible to use 1.5mm copper sheet + thermal paste instead of the pads (could use small pieces, or a big piece cut and sanded to the right shape) ..?
I plan to do something like this so will attempt to take some precise measurements. I'll most likely make it a single piece cut to shape.

Elinx   10 kW

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by Elinx » Aug 02 2020 9:50am

Doohickey wrote:
Aug 02 2020 7:03am
....
Is the spacing exactly 1.5mm? I wonder if it would be possible to use 1.5mm copper sheet + thermal paste .
Exactly is not the right word I think. Before you decide you must be sure, so measuring the case and motor is necessary.
The bare motor has also a minimal raise, so measuring the case only isn't enough.
baremotor.jpg
baremotor.jpg (32.94 KiB) Viewed 927 times

famichiki   100 W

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by famichiki » Aug 04 2020 3:40am

How are people keeping the pads in place during reassembly? Most, including the AAB ones used in the wiki, are not self-adhesive.

Elinx   10 kW

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by Elinx » Aug 04 2020 9:58am

famichiki wrote:
Aug 04 2020 3:40am
...keeping the pads in place during reassembly? ..... not self-adhesive.
What do you mean with "not self-adhesive"
imho AAB and Chinese pads are sticky on both sides and easy to detach.

famichiki   100 W

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by famichiki » Aug 04 2020 10:04am

Elinx wrote:
Aug 04 2020 9:58am
What do you mean with "not self-adhesive"
imho AAB and Chinese pads are sticky on both sides and easy to detach.
They have a natural tackiness but I'm not sure how strong, they are not suitable for holding a heatsink in place for example. Only a few brands specifically mention they have self adhesive on one or both sides for that. Then the question with those is does it affect the thermal conductivity.

Elinx   10 kW

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by Elinx » Aug 04 2020 5:47pm

famichiki wrote:
Aug 04 2020 10:04am
.....
They have a natural tackiness but I'm not sure how strong, they are not suitable for holding a heatsink ....
The pads are sticky, but they must being installed a bit under pressure for best heat conductivity, So it is not adhesive like glue. They are soft for maximal gap filling and deform easy like clay.
There is also heat conductive tape, but that has a tiny thickness. That is more adhesive and with that thin tape you can glue a heatsink.

famichiki   100 W

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by famichiki » Aug 04 2020 5:54pm

Elinx wrote:
Aug 04 2020 5:47pm
The pads are sticky, but they must being installed a bit under pressure for best heat conductivity, So it is not adhesive like glue. They are soft for maximal gap filling and deform easy like clay.
There is also heat conductive tape, but that has a tiny thickness. That is more adhesive and with that thin tape you can glue a heatsink.
Ok, I'm just wondering about them falling out of place during reassembly or dropping onto the dirty garage floor whenever I remove the side cover.

Elinx   10 kW

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by Elinx » Aug 04 2020 6:05pm

famichiki wrote:
Aug 04 2020 5:54pm
... just wondering about them falling out of place during reassembly .....
Yes there is a chance that this happens if both sides are sticked. To prevent that you can use aluminium or copper tape on one side.

famichiki   100 W

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by famichiki » Aug 04 2020 9:07pm

Elinx wrote:
Aug 04 2020 6:05pm
Yes there is a chance that this happens if both sides are sticked. To prevent that you can use aluminium or copper tape on one side.
I've seen a few people here mentioning copper, but using aluminium will remove the possibility of galvanic corrosion of the motor and case.

famichiki   100 W

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by famichiki » Aug 05 2020 4:22am

The wiki says to add 3mm thermal pads to the motor end cap.

Thicker pads are actually needed as the air gap between the side cover measures around 3.5 - 4.5mm depending on whether it's around the outside or in the centre over the terminals.

The air gap on the controller housing is around 1.5mm.

5mm pads look like a better choice, but may be hard to find in a high W/mK rating. Otherwise you'll need to stack thinner pads.
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ElectricSprocket   10 mW

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by ElectricSprocket » Aug 05 2020 5:30am

Just to report, I tested my new TSDZ2 350W temperatures before and after addition of thermal pads. I installed a cheap eBay digital thermometer and rode the bike up a 180m hill, off-road trail with steep grades in Turbo mode all the way.

Ambient temp was 19˚C.
Before upgrade temperature at the top was 72˚C
After upgrade temperature at the top was 54˚C

With the help of this thread, I think its a smashing success! I used thermal pads from eBay, 3mm and 2mm 3.15 W/m.K. Cheaper than the high conductivity stuff and was available locally.

Used 3mm pads on the motor end cap and 2mm on top of 3mm around the side (laminates), wrapped around a third of the motor, no need to go overboard, it was enough for a great result. I doubt I will fry this motor in Summer.

cheers

Mr.Flibble   10 W

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by Mr.Flibble » Aug 05 2020 1:14pm

Elinx wrote:
May 13 2020 8:57am
NexusG has filled up entirely TSDZ2 with car engine oil for cooling purpose.

"It runs well and much quieter, even if I have a brass gear !
The oil plays both the role of coolant and lubricant.................
.........It doesn't avoid the increase of oil temperature at continuous high power (I was able to reach more than 80°C at 750W for long period)
But... the oil have a thermal inertia and it may prevent the winding to burn as there are in direct contact."
Won't engine oil leach the plasticisers out of the blue gear, making it brittle and brake?

Elinx   10 kW

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Re: Hardware temperature control tsdz2

Post by Elinx » Aug 07 2020 3:01am

famichiki wrote:
Aug 05 2020 4:22am
.....Thicker pads are actually needed .......
Thanks for these measuring experiments. The choice for padsizes could now be more fine-tuned on the different places.
Are you planning to do this experiment too between motormount and gear case?
Because you had said you to consider inserting an aluminium plate there.

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