Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by jimmyN » Oct 18 2019 1:31pm

Well, kinda, I was hoping to see a comparison between two bikes in the same setting at the same distance, this would give us an idea. Of Course there is huge variables in frequency and many other factors, a db reading of a rock concert Vs. a exhaust pipe will give you no useful info but two gear reduction electric bikes in a semi controlled setting will help us understand, many people on this forum have a large stable of ebikes it might be interesting to see some comparisons.
bradland wrote:
Oct 17 2019 4:10pm
jimmyN wrote:
Oct 08 2019 11:37pm
So much talk about loud, what is loud?? hang the bike in an enclosed space, hold a db. meter at a set distance from the motor, push the throttle and run it wide open for a minute, record the reading, repeat the process with another bike and lets see the results? we need someone with an X1 run this simple test so we can put this discussion to rest.
SPL readings on a workstand are useless. The amount of noise varies greatly based on load. I just measured my bike in the garage. Reference SPL is 64dB. Max SPL when I mashed the throttle was 68dB, but I can tell you, that is not representative of how the motor sounds when riding.

SPL tests, in general, are only useful for relative comparison when performed under carefully controlled conditions. I really doubt anyone here has the equipment to do it right. Doing it wrong just means polluting the conversation further.

Also, the way we perceive loudness isn't as simple as an SPL measurement. There is really no good way to "objectively" measure how loud the bike is, because we don't hear things objectively.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by fechter » Oct 21 2019 2:26pm

I got a chance to ride a X-1 over the weekend. I paid careful attention to the noise. Just starting out from a stop with full power, I could hear a little whine, but as soon as I reached about 10mph, it was totally drowned out by the wind/tire noise. While not quite as silent as a BBSHD, it is not loud by any measure. I think under normal trail riding conditions, the crunching noise the tires make going over rocks will be much louder. To a person you are passing by, I don't think you would be able to hear it further than a few feet away. I also suspect as the gears wear in, the noise will be even less.

The bike rode really well and the torque sensing works great. Unfortunately I was only able to ride on the street and didn't get a chance to ride in the dirt, but the suspension is great and hopping off curbs was nothing for it.

Considering how much smaller the M600 drive is compared to a BBSHD or M1000, I was really impressed with the power.
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by TOLM » Oct 22 2019 10:22am

Luna has these available again.. But only in size M.. Is this a return item?

Thanks

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by robocam » Oct 22 2019 10:53am

Unlikely because they sell their used bikes on another page, and they clearly list them as "used."
TOLM wrote:
Oct 22 2019 10:22am
Luna has these available again.. But only in size M.. Is this a return item?

Thanks

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by bradland » Oct 22 2019 11:05am

Tom wrote:
Oct 17 2019 5:43pm
I think the most objective comparison would be videos from the rider perspective. Do you hear as much noise in non M600 videos? If not, take the disclaimer that it's the location of the microphone with a grain of salt. If you listen to the videos from the Frey event where they went out riding some Frey M600 2.0s you can hear the grinding. Here is Karl's video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjrQSqQrtO0

I think people who say the motor isn't loud are rationalizing more than being truly objective. Listen to Karl's video. When the video stops and there is peace and quiet again it reminded me of riding my BBS01 after the X1. When I'm riding up 2000' of logging road I don't want to hear a grinding motor for 30 minutes. YMMV.
There's a difference between rationalizing and perception. Saying that it's "rationalization" on the part of anyone not bothered by it implies that everyone would be bothered by the sound, but that they may rationalize away the issue to support an internal bias. That's not necessarily the case.

Not everyone perceives sound the same way. Perception of sound is not an objective matter. I'm not saying you should be OK with the noise it makes; I'm simply saying that just because it's a problem for one person doesn't mean it will be a problem for another. No rationalization required.

For me, I hear the motor if I'm listening for it, but the sound "disappears" for me after a few minutes. It's like road noise in a car. Would I prefer it to be more quiet? Sure. But I adjust to it very quickly and my mind blocks it out.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by TOLM » Oct 22 2019 11:31am

robocam wrote:
Oct 22 2019 10:53am
Unlikely because they sell their used bikes on another page, and they clearly list them as "used."
TOLM wrote:
Oct 22 2019 10:22am
Luna has these available again.. But only in size M.. Is this a return item?

Thanks
Thank you

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by fechter » Oct 22 2019 2:09pm

Comparisons are also good. The BBSHD does make some noise, but on mine it is very hard to hear unless you are on smooth pavement giving full throttle.

I also got a chance to ride a Spitzing M1, which is a $10,000+ German ebike. The Spitzing was way louder than the X-1 at any speed with a very noticeable gear whine. Ride and PAS function was very similar to the X-1. The Spitzing does not have a throttle, so is PAS only. I'm sure the software is all locked down and proprietary like other German bikes.
Spitzing M1.JPG
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by sandtea » Oct 22 2019 2:21pm

TOLM wrote:
Oct 22 2019 11:31am
robocam wrote:
Oct 22 2019 10:53am
Unlikely because they sell their used bikes on another page, and they clearly list them as "used."
TOLM wrote:
Oct 22 2019 10:22am
Luna has these available again.. But only in size M.. Is this a return item?

Thanks
Thank you
Not a return item. Leftover stock from the first round they got from the factory.
Last edited by sandtea on Oct 22 2019 3:53pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 22 2019 3:05pm

fechter wrote:
Oct 22 2019 2:09pm
Comparisons are also good. The BBSHD does make some noise, but on mine it is very hard to hear unless you are on smooth pavement giving full throttle.

I also got a chance to ride a Spitzing M1, which is a $10,000+ German ebike. The Spitzing was way louder than the X-1 at any speed with a very noticeable gear whine. Ride and PAS function was very similar to the X-1. The Spitzing does not have a throttle, so is PAS only. I'm sure the software is all locked down and proprietary like other German bikes.
Yes perception of noise is going to be relative. I seem to be the outlier that finds it loud, but again, I've never ridden a cyclone, Sur Ron, etc. The only thing I had to compare to was my BBS01 and the $5-6K Turbo Levos that I test rode with the latest Brose Mag S motors with gates carbon belt drive inside. I thought the Brose was actually quieter than my BBS01, although I subsequently test rode another Turbo Levo and it seemed a little louder on the uphill.

Luna responded back that they checked my M600 when they got it back and it wasn't abnormal (no louder than any other X1 they tested). Seems like my expectations were just too high.

FWIW, I've been looking at the Frey EX with the Bafang Ultra. I haven't heard many complaints about the ultra motor in terms of noise but they sure seem loud to me, again, maybe I'm just expecting too much based on my BBS01 / Brose Mag S baseline.


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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by fechter » Oct 22 2019 3:54pm

I've ridden an Ultra with the plastic gear and I'd say it's slightly louder than the BBSHD with the plastic gear. Both are very quiet and hard to hear any noise. Even my direct drive hub motor with a sine wave controller makes as much noise at certain speeds.
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by robocam » Oct 22 2019 3:58pm

How many miles did you ride your X-1 before returning it?

Luna Cycle is also working on a plastic gear for the M600, so that should bring it back down closer to BBS noise levels for those that demand silence.

The Ultra even with a metal gear is significantly quieter than the metal-geared M600. I have a Frey AM1000 with a metal-geared Ultra, and I can't imagine finding many that would be bothered by the sound it makes :), and I can get noise obsessed. I go to great lengths to find the quietest tires for my cars, and my desktop computer is virtually silent (silent power supply, silent fans, silent CPU cooler, and all my external hard drives are inside a wooden cabinet). Even my garage door openers have belt drives and DC motors.

I also have a BBSHD, and it is a tiny bit quieter, but the Ultra does not make any annoying sounds. An Ultra in actual use doesn't sound like it does in that video. It's much quieter.
Tom wrote:
Oct 22 2019 3:05pm
Yes perception of noise is going to be relative. I seem to be the outlier that finds it loud, but again, I've never ridden a cyclone, Sur Ron, etc. The only thing I had to compare to was my BBS01 and the $5-6K Turbo Levos that I test rode with the latest Brose Mag S motors with gates carbon drive. I thought the Brose was actually quieter than my BBS01, although I subsequently test rode another Turbo Levo and it seemed a little louder on the uphill.

Luna responded back that they checked my M600 when they got it back and it wasn't abnormal (no louder than any other X1 they tested). Seems like my expectations were just too high.

FWIW, I've been looking at the Frey EX with the Bafang Ultra. I haven't heard many complaints about the ultra motor in terms of noise but they sure seem loud to me, again, maybe I'm just expecting too much based on my BBS01 / Brose Mag S baseline...
Last edited by robocam on Oct 22 2019 5:59pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 22 2019 4:45pm

No much. Mostly up and down the 800' hills in the neighborhood. Seemed like it was getting a little quieter but couldn't envision it getting as quiet as I'd like just riding it. I don't think my concern was others hearing the motor as much as me having to endure listening to the grinding noise all the way up hills. After I rode the Specialized with Brose motor it was like, damn, this is so quiet, and it fells powerful enough, why fight the noise on the X1? And then Kepler commented that my motor's grinding noise sounded abnomal and I'd have a hard time selling it, so I didn't want to be stuck with it or sell it to someone if it really was abnormal. After I sent it back Luna said they said they would see if they could get it quieter.

Edit: just heard back from Luna and it sounds like greasing isn't going to really make that much of a difference. Comes down to steel gears with significant reduction and you can only do so much about the noise. They said BBSxx with nylon gears is just a special type of quiet. They said they wouldn't recommend nylon gears on the M600.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by bradland » Oct 22 2019 5:58pm

Tom wrote:
Oct 22 2019 3:05pm
Yes perception of noise is going to be relative. I seem to be the outlier that finds it loud, but again, I've never ridden a cyclone, Sur Ron, etc. The only thing I had to compare to was my BBS01 and the $5-6K Turbo Levos that I test rode with the latest Brose Mag S motors with gates carbon belt drive inside. I thought the Brose was actually quieter than my BBS01, although I subsequently test rode another Turbo Levo and it seemed a little louder on the uphill.

Luna responded back that they checked my M600 when they got it back and it wasn't abnormal (no louder than any other X1 they tested). Seems like my expectations were just too high.

FWIW, I've been looking at the Frey EX with the Bafang Ultra. I haven't heard many complaints about the ultra motor in terms of noise but they sure seem loud to me, again, maybe I'm just expecting too much based on my BBS01 / Brose Mag S baseline.
Well, FWIW, I've got a buddy who just picked up a used Atom X with a Brose drive, and I swear that thing is silent. Completely silent. He also rode a DH Haibike that was the same price, but he went with the Atom X because he loved how quiet it was. You're not alone. I'd definitely say that the Brose and BBS01 are amongst the quietest drives you'll find though, so you're setting the bar high. Sometimes that requires compromise. You might have to stay with a Brose bike, even though that caps you at ~750W and whatever speed limit (25 MPH?). They're plenty torquey and their PAS is great.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by robocam » Oct 22 2019 6:23pm

Yeah, I was going to say that even if they were to achieve some SPL reduction, it probably wouldn't be silent to the rider. Though I wonder what you might have thought if you had given it just a little more time :)

The reason I'm keeping my X-1 is because it's the only lightweight bike with a throttle and torque sensor. I mean, are there any other options? I guess maybe Frey, but theirs would have a speed limit I'm assuming and no Ludicrous controller (although I would prioritize sound over power). Literally a week before the X-1's announcement, I was trying to buy a Levo, and maybe someday when I decide I no longer need a throttle, I might own a Levo. Ideally, someone would hack a throttle onto a Levo :)

The good that comes out of this is that manufacturers are pushed to improve their products. If only Bafang could have made the BBSHD torque-sensing, that would have been a killer product, even in a form factor similar to the Ultra and M600. I don't buy the reasons people give that it can't be done. Someday they will figure it out. Or maybe Brose will give us a throttle? :)

I think you'd be ok with an Ultra. Try one first though. It is significantly quieter than the M600 on the X-1.
Tom wrote:
Oct 22 2019 4:45pm
No much. Mostly up and down the 800' hills in the neighborhood. Seemed like it was getting a little quieter but couldn't envision it getting as quiet as I'd like just riding it. I don't think my concern was others hearing the motor as much as me having to endure listening to the grinding noise all the way up hills. After I rode the Specialized with Brose motor it was like, damn, this is so quiet, and it fells powerful enough, why fight the noise on the X1? And then Kepler commented that my motor's grinding noise sounded abnomal and I'd have a hard time selling it, so I didn't want to be stuck with it or sell it to someone if it really was abnormal. After I sent it back Luna said they said they would see if they could get it quieter.

Edit: just heard back from Luna and it sounds like greasing isn't going to really make that much of a difference. Comes down to steel gears with significant reduction and you can only do so much about the noise. They said BBSxx with nylon gears is just a special type of quiet. They said they wouldn't recommend nylon gears on the M600.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 22 2019 6:33pm

Good to hear all the chatter on these drives. Good info that Luna tried to qrease and quite on Toms and got back to Tom with the results know we all know. Hey Robocam, I also mentioned way back a full year ago when I got this drive that there just were no other options and that was back then, I feel just like you there just are no other options for lighter weight, good ground clearance and throttle and torque sensor etc etc. I am still super happy with my bike .....:)

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 22 2019 6:33pm

Good to hear all the chatter on these drives. Good info that Luna tried to qrease and quiet the motor on Toms and got back to Tom with the results .

Hey Robocam, I also mentioned way back a full year ago when I got this drive that there just were no other options and that was back then, I feel just like you there just are no other options for lighter weight, good ground clearance and throttle and torque sensor etc etc. I am still super happy with my bike .....:)

That German bike dont look so good for the price and no throttle in my opinion
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Kepler » Oct 22 2019 6:59pm

I rode with a bunch of emtb's on the weekend. All sorts of high end bikes with all sorts of drives.

My M600 didnt stand out as noisy in the group and was very similar to the Shimano Steps in sound. Point is that it really just blended in with the other mid drive bikes. That being said, if a plastic gear conversion path becomes available, I would certainly look at taking that up especially considering the way I ride this bike.

Power wise, very similar to the rest of the bikes also. Did enjoy having the speed advantage over the eu spec bikes though.
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 22 2019 8:17pm

LMX 64 is another interesting option. I had originally written it off as too noisy but seems they have gotten the noise down somewhat. I wonder how quiet they could get it with a carbon belt drive?

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by fechter » Oct 22 2019 11:15pm

How to make gears quieter:
Use High-Precision Gears
Reduce the pitch error, tooth profile error, runout error and lead error. Grind teeth to improve the accuracy as well as the surface finish.
Use a Better Surface Finish on Gears
Grinding, lapping and honing the tooth surface, or running in gears in oil for a period of time can also improve the smoothness of tooth surface and reduce the noise.
Ensure a Correct Tooth Contact
Crowning and end relief can prevent edge contact. Proper tooth profile modification is also effective. Eliminate impact on tooth surface.
Have a Proper Amount of Backlash
A smaller backlash will help produce a pulsating transmission. A bigger backlash, in general, causes less problems.
Increase the Transverse Contact Ratio
A bigger contact ratio lowers the noise. Decreasing the pressure angle and/or increasing the tooth depth can produce a larger contact ratio.
Increase the Overlap Ratio
Enlarging the overlap ratio will reduce the noise. Because of this relationship, a helical gear is quieter than the spur gear and a spiral bevel gear is quieter than the straight bevel gear.
Eliminate Interference on the Tooth Profile
Chamfer the corner of the top land, or modify the tooth profile for smooth meshing. Smooth meshing without interfering makes low noise.
Use Gears that have Smaller Teeth
Adopt gears with a smaller module and a larger number of gear teeth.
Use High-Rigidity Gears
Increasing facewidth can give a higher rigidity that will help in reducing noise. Reinforce housing and shafts to increase rigidity.
Use Resin Materials
Plastic gears will be quiet in light load and low speed operation. Care should be taken to decrease backlash, caused from enlargement by absorption at elevated temperatures.
Use High Vibration Damping Material
Cast iron gears have lower noise than steel gears. Use of gears with the hub made of cast iron is also effective.
Apply Suitable Lubrication
Lubricate gears sufficiently to keep the lubricant film on the surface, under hydrodynamic lubrication. Highviscosity lubricant will have the tendency to reduce the noise.
Lower Load and Speed
Lowering rotational speed and load as far as possible will reduce gear noise.
Use Gears that have No Dents
Gears which have dents on the tooth surface or the tip make cyclic, abnormal sounds.
Avoid too much thinning of the Web
Lightened gears with a thin web thickness make high-frequency noises. Care should be taken.
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by devo1223 » Oct 23 2019 1:23pm

fechter wrote:
Oct 22 2019 2:09pm


I also got a chance to ride a Spitzing M1, which is a $10,000+ German ebike. The Spitzing was way louder than the X-1 at any speed with a very noticeable gear whine. Ride and PAS function was very similar to the X-1. The Spitzing does not have a throttle, so is PAS only.
Hey Fechter how was the power of the Spitzing compared to the X-1? I've ridden the Spitzing but not the X-1.

Tom I'd consider buying your x-1 depending on the discount. Where are you located?
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by fechter » Oct 23 2019 1:47pm

devo1223 wrote:
Oct 23 2019 1:23pm
Hey Fechter how was the power of the Spitzing compared to the X-1? I've ridden the Spitzing but not the X-1.

Tom I'd consider buying your x-1 depending on the discount. Where are you located?
It was pretty close, but the X-1 had a little more power. Having a throttle is nice too.
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 23 2019 2:49pm

devo1223 wrote:
Oct 23 2019 1:23pm
Tom I'd consider buying your x-1 depending on the discount. Where are you located?
I returned it to Luna a couple weeks ago. They were going to see if they could find a way to get the noise down, but that didn't work out so I opted for a refund.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Animalector » Oct 24 2019 6:01pm

I was at the bafang factory yesterday and reported to them that the perceived noise was high. It is indeed because of the metal gears which we all know.

They said it could be improved by adding more "glue" interpret as "grease". This supports Kepler's observation. So I suggested that this should happen in the factory rather than rely on the customer to do this modification.

Pretty cool place.. I'll put up some pics when I get back to Australia and add a link

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by jimmyN » Oct 28 2019 10:55pm

I received my X1 today, I was very impressed, It looks to be very well built. I went with the Ludi upgrade and I'm glad I did, I live in an area with lots of great steep trails, it climbs like a goat and just floats on the downhill. I hung it in my garage next to my Cannondale W/GNG belt reduction kit and did some sound comparisons. I held the decibel meter at 4' above the crank and ran the throttle wide open the GNG peaked at 85.5 decibels the Bafang M600 was 59.8 when i let off the throttle the rear freewheel peaked the meter at 60.4. With all this discussion about how loud this motor is I was a little worried but once I rode the bike I realized it's not a problem at all, at least for me, I thought it was funny the freewheeling rear wheel makes more noise than the M600. I took one more test at the end, I rode the bike down the street with no power just pedaling, third gear, flat ground, light headwind and the meter peaked at 71 db. Great Bike, Very good value.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by robocam » Oct 28 2019 11:13pm

I almost returned my X-1 without even opening it when I read about the noise complaint and saw the video. People need to know how quiet it truly is, and you got yours today, so it should get even quieter with a few more miles.

Is that the GNG with the 20mm-wide belt? I have that one too, and it is so loud. I can't imagine how loud the chain-driven version might be though I wish I got that one because the belt promptly snapped as soon as I put a 40A controller on it.
jimmyN wrote:
Oct 28 2019 10:55pm
I received my X1 today, I was very impressed, It looks to be very well built. I went with the Ludi upgrade and I'm glad I did, I live in an area with lots of great steep trails, it climbs like a goat and just floats on the downhill. I hung it in my garage next to my Cannondale W/GNG belt reduction kit and did some sound comparisons. I held the decibel meter at 4' above the crank and ran the throttle wide open the GNG peaked at 85.5 decibels the Bafang M600 was 59.8 when i let off the throttle the rear freewheel peaked the meter at 60.4. With all this discussion about how loud this motor is I was a little worried but once I rode the bike I realized it's not a problem at all, at least for me, I thought it was funny the freewheeling rear wheel makes more noise than the M600. I took one more test at the end, I rode the bike down the street with no power just pedaling, third gear, flat ground, light headwind and the meter peaked at 71 db. Great Bike, Very good value.

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