Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

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Tom   100 W

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 08 2019 1:03am

Here's a X1 video that popped up on my "recommended" list on youtube. Noise sounds similar to what I experienced while climbing. Not sure if he has the ludi controller or standard config. He turns on music part way up and you can actually hear the motor over the music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh8H-PJEb3g

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by robocam » Oct 08 2019 3:48am

Thanks Tom. I'll have to demo a Specialized someday. I'm really happy with the way the X-1's torque sensor is programmed right now, and it just feels great on the trails, so we'll see how long I can hold out before my GAS acts up.

https://petapixel.com/2015/11/25/10-pra ... -syndrome/
Tom wrote:
Oct 07 2019 4:10pm
That's an older model. Here is the 2020 Turbo Levo Comp which comes with larger battery. Edit: you're correct about travel. I thought the X1 was 150mm. The 2020 Turbo Kenevo Comp is $500 less with 180mm of travel, but doesn't have the larger battery.

Here is a review. The only consistent knock I've seen is the tires. He eventually figured out the problem with his shocks (hidden tokens) per his follow up . I've read you can derestrict the 20 mph max speed with this or a mechanical device. Specialized also has something called shuttle mode, which gives you peak power (560 watts and 90 Nm of torque on the Mag-S) for climbs without needing to pedal as hard (sounds like pseudo throttle for tired legs), but no idea how powerful it is relative to the standard X1. If you go by the manufacturer specs the M600 has 33% more torque and twice the power. I haven't seen lack of power as a common complaint though on the latest Brose motors and they are super smooth and quiet.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by robocam » Oct 08 2019 3:57am

I think it may have something to do with the way microphones pick up sound. Here's a reply I saw from someone regarding the sound from the X-1 while listening to music.
IMG_2702db.jpg
IMG_2702db.jpg (58.55 KiB) Viewed 2344 times
Tom wrote:
Oct 08 2019 1:03am
Here's a X1 video that popped up on my "recommended" list on youtube. Noise sounds similar to what I experienced while climbing. Not sure if he has the ludi controller or standard config. He turns on music part way up and you can actually hear the motor over the music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh8H-PJEb3g

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 08 2019 5:23am

Here's another video that popped up in my recommended list. This isn't a M600, it's a BBSHD with Ludi. I thought it was an interesting comparison because Luna states the M600 is "slightly louder than a BBSHD if you ever seen one." Perhaps this is just a really quiet BBSHD:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYSiKYG58As

When I go back to the X1 video, it almost seems comical:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh8H-PJEb3g

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by robocam » Oct 08 2019 6:31am

Man, if the X-1 could be like a Ludicrous plastic-geared BBSHD, that would just be a dream. I mean even if the M600 was a BBSHD with a torque sensor, I'd be more than happy. But Bafang needs to bring back the ability for us to program it. Why can't Bafang just make it with a larger plastic gear that doesn't break? All they have to do is make it a little wider, or spin the motor a little faster and/or reduce the current. It can still output the same amount of power and spin the crankset at the same speed.

And how come someone hasn't figured out a way to hack a throttle onto the Levo?

But regarding the X-1 video, you can hear his breathing and sniffling. I mean, you can't normally hear people's breathing, so that mic on the camera is very sensitive. He's also going like 7-8 mph. I'll have to post my ride video from Sunday. I go a lot faster in parts, and when you go that fast, what you hear is wind noise and trail noise.
Tom wrote:
Oct 08 2019 5:23am
Here's another video that popped up in my recommended list. This isn't a M600, it's a BBSHD with Ludi. I thought it was an interesting comparison because Luna states the M600 is "slightly louder than a BBSHD if you ever seen one." Perhaps this is just a really quiet BBSHD:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYSiKYG58As

When I go back to the X1 video, it almost seems comical:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh8H-PJEb3g

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by bradland » Oct 08 2019 3:14pm

Yeah, I have to say that I have yet to notice the noise of the motor on trails the way I notice it in videos. I think it's a combination of the tiny mics on most phones/cameras being sensitive to high-pitched noises, and the ability of the human brain to ignore noises it deems unimportant. In either case, the motor noise just hasn't distracted me much. Will see how other riders feel about it when we hit up a group ride.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 08 2019 3:58pm

Bradland, just an idea here. If you want an objective analaysis rather than subjective I would recomend on the group ride for you to see if you can ride a reg no e-bike from the group (switch bikes with someone) if you can trust one of them to ride yours. Have your bike then riden past you by someone else to really hear it for your self.

If you ask another person to listen to your bike they most likely will not want to hurt your feelings if there is bad news to report, so I would say hear it for yourself. Even better have your bike and another say store bought ebike shimano or something side by side ride by you and see what you get.
Last edited by waynebergman on Oct 08 2019 5:36pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by robocam » Oct 08 2019 4:38pm

Here's what the X-1 Ludicrous sounds like to bystanders. Notice how quickly the sound fades with distance and how the tire noise can be louder. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMBX7AF ... e=youtu.be

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by jimmyN » Oct 08 2019 11:37pm

So much talk about loud, what is loud?? hang the bike in an enclosed space, hold a db. meter at a set distance from the motor, push the throttle and run it wide open for a minute, record the reading, repeat the process with another bike and lets see the results? we need someone with an X1 run this simple test so we can put this discussion to rest.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Joost5000 » Oct 08 2019 11:50pm

Bout time we put the noise issue to bed. It’s sorta loud, louder than the marketing materials led us to believe. People are now aware, can we move on and talk about the other stuff.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by tomjasz » Oct 09 2019 12:21am

robocam wrote:
Oct 08 2019 6:31am
Man, if the X-1 could be like a Ludicrous plastic-geared BBSHD, that would just be a dream. I mean even if the M600 was a BBSHD with a torque sensor, I'd be more than happy. But Bafang needs to bring back the ability for us to program it. Why can't Bafang just make it with a larger plastic gear that doesn't break? All they have to do is make it a little wider, or spin the motor a little faster and/or reduce the current. It can still output the same amount of power and spin the crankset at the same speed.

3g
[/quote]


Bafang could care less. Heck Luna has the same struggles as the small shops i’m not confident well se any support, or any better support for their diy products. I hop I’m wrong, but my 2015 BBSxx motors parts supply has all but dried up. I bought two of each so at least I’ve some repair parts.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by robocam » Oct 09 2019 6:05pm

I put a power meter on my X-1 to confirm whether or not I have a Ludicrous controller. Next time I'll have to fully charge the battery to see what it can do but the results are pretty good. https://youtu.be/_YB7oNEtbNI

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by jimmyN » Oct 09 2019 10:19pm

Excellent work! I'm so glad to see some numbers, lots of subjective descriptions surrounding this bike, I read about people arguing that the bike is powerful or not, noisey or not, without numbers these descriptions mean NOTHING. Now we know the output of the Ludi controller at that voltage applied. How about a db. reading so we can see what loud means.
Thanks for taking the time to run the test.
robocam wrote:
Oct 09 2019 6:05pm
I put a power meter on my X-1 to confirm whether or not I have a Ludicrous controller. Next time I'll have to fully charge the battery to see what it can do but the results are pretty good. https://youtu.be/_YB7oNEtbNI

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by robocam » Oct 10 2019 4:59pm

Now we know what happens when you put a 52V battery on the M600 of the X-1. https://youtu.be/X2IPtda_LFo

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by robocam » Oct 11 2019 1:31pm

How to remove your battery without using a key. https://youtu.be/hDMUdn7omyE

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by ScooterMan101 » Oct 12 2019 12:16am

@ 1min 25 seconds you remove the XT60 plug by .... Pulling on the Wires :shock: Often XT60 as well as XT90 plugs are very hard to separate so it is best when the plug is in such a location , to take a pair of pliers to grip the plug itself instead of the wires .

@ 6 min 40 seconds you go for a straight run , before you start off the voltage is reading 51.49 apx .
when you finally settle out at a constant speed @ 7 min 15 seconds it is showing 47. 49 apx volts
That is a 4 volt voltage drop , and at that time you are only pulling 17-19 amps .
and for a few seconds the voltage got even further down .
Even though your battery was not fully charged a 4 volt sag seems high to me.

Some Battery experts here on E.S. need to weigh in on this .

What make and model of batteries are in that bike ?

You say the pack is 13 s , how many cells are in parallel ?


robocam wrote:
Oct 09 2019 6:05pm
I put a power meter on my X-1 to confirm whether or not I have a Ludicrous controller. Next time I'll have to fully charge the battery to see what it can do but the results are pretty good. https://youtu.be/_YB7oNEtbNI
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by robocam » Oct 12 2019 7:27am

You're right. If I were to unplug it on a daily basis, it probably wouldn't be a good idea to pull it by the wires but it didn't really take too much to pull it out, and the wires are thick and the plug is soldered. If I had encountered more resistance, I may have used pliers. :)

I'll definitely have to repeat the tests with a fully charged battery. It's difficult to really know the charge level based on voltage. I also have 52V (14s4p and 14s8p) Samsung 25r packs I can test for comparison to see the difference in sag, and I also have a 14s2p GA pack I can test for fun.

What kind of tests would you like to see? A run on the flat road right after I charge it? Should I start in the highest gear so that the motor will draw the most current?

The bike uses Panasonic GA cells, and there are 4 groups in parallel.

https://lunacycle.com/x-1-enduro-fs-ebike/
ScooterMan101 wrote:
Oct 12 2019 12:16am
@ 1min 25 seconds you remove the XT60 plug by .... Pulling on the Wires :shock: Often XT60 as well as XT90 plugs are very hard to separate so it is best when the plug is in such a location , to take a pair of pliers to grip the plug itself instead of the wires .

@ 6 min 40 seconds you go for a straight run , before you start off the voltage is reading 51.49 apx .
when you finally settle out at a constant speed @ 7 min 15 seconds it is showing 47. 49 apx volts
That is a 4 volt voltage drop , and at that time you are only pulling 17-19 amps .
and for a few seconds the voltage got even further down .
Even though your battery was not fully charged a 4 volt sag seems high to me.

Some Battery experts here on E.S. need to weigh in on this .

What make and model of batteries are in that bike ?

You say the pack is 13 s , how many cells are in parallel ?


robocam wrote:
Oct 09 2019 6:05pm
I put a power meter on my X-1 to confirm whether or not I have a Ludicrous controller. Next time I'll have to fully charge the battery to see what it can do but the results are pretty good. https://youtu.be/_YB7oNEtbNI

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by ScooterMan101 » Oct 12 2019 3:37pm

A flat run
and
a hill run, let us know the slope % and for how long.

Not starting out in the highest gear, but a comparison with a couple of different gearing would be good as well.

The Idea is to get up to the speed you want to stay at ( High Speed , Full Throttle , ) and once there see how much of a voltage sag
there is , getting up to speed will always have allot of sag.

This is great testing you are doing :thumb: .
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by jimmyN » Oct 12 2019 8:15pm

I would love to see a sound test. If you don't have a db. meter you can download a free app for your phone

What kind of tests would you like to see?

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Eddy Current » Oct 15 2019 4:21pm

Got two questions about this x1

-The Yari it’s the 29 fork or the 27.5 fork?

-Do you think you can order a 250w battery as a second battery (for a lightweight setting)

Thanks!

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by bradland » Oct 17 2019 3:44pm

Eddy Current wrote:
Oct 15 2019 4:21pm
Got two questions about this x1

-The Yari it’s the 29 fork or the 27.5 fork?

-Do you think you can order a 250w battery as a second battery (for a lightweight setting)

Thanks!
The fork is the 27.5 version with boost spacing. Travel is variable between 150mm and 160mm. This adjustment requires disassembly though.

Only one battery size is currently available.
Last edited by bradland on Oct 17 2019 4:11pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by bradland » Oct 17 2019 4:10pm

jimmyN wrote:
Oct 08 2019 11:37pm
So much talk about loud, what is loud?? hang the bike in an enclosed space, hold a db. meter at a set distance from the motor, push the throttle and run it wide open for a minute, record the reading, repeat the process with another bike and lets see the results? we need someone with an X1 run this simple test so we can put this discussion to rest.
SPL readings on a workstand are useless. The amount of noise varies greatly based on load. I just measured my bike in the garage. Reference SPL is 64dB. Max SPL when I mashed the throttle was 68dB, but I can tell you, that is not representative of how the motor sounds when riding.

SPL tests, in general, are only useful for relative comparison when performed under carefully controlled conditions. I really doubt anyone here has the equipment to do it right. Doing it wrong just means polluting the conversation further.

Also, the way we perceive loudness isn't as simple as an SPL measurement. There is really no good way to "objectively" measure how loud the bike is, because we don't hear things objectively.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 17 2019 4:42pm

Yes Bradland, I think you are right.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by robocam » Oct 17 2019 5:20pm

I completely agree. This is exactly why I haven't measured mine myself. The numbers would be meaningless especially without a distance specified, and we don't know if it was measured half-space, quarter-space, eigth-space, etc. The characteristics of the sound profile and how it sounds under load are not captured in an SPL measurement. Some sounds are pleasant and some are annoying. What someone needs to do is record the sound utilizing a method like this using a recorder with auto gain control turned off. This is probably the best way to hear what the operator is hearing. Also, this guy produces the best Bluetooth speaker reviews :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOBkLDXWLuw
bradland wrote:
Oct 17 2019 4:10pm
SPL readings on a workstand are useless. The amount of noise varies greatly based on load. I just measured my bike in the garage. Reference SPL is 64dB. Max SPL when I mashed the throttle was 68dB, but I can tell you, that is not representative of how the motor sounds when riding.

SPL tests, in general, are only useful for relative comparison when performed under carefully controlled conditions. I really doubt anyone here has the equipment to do it right. Doing it wrong just means polluting the conversation further.

Also, the way we perceive loudness isn't as simple as an SPL measurement. There is really no good way to "objectively" measure how loud the bike is, because we don't hear things objectively.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 17 2019 5:43pm

I think the most objective comparison would be videos from the rider perspective. Do you hear as much noise in non M600 videos? If not, take the disclaimer that it's the location of the microphone with a grain of salt. If you listen to the videos from the Frey event where they went out riding some Frey M600 2.0s you can hear the grinding. Here is Karl's video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjrQSqQrtO0

I think people who say the motor isn't loud are rationalizing more than being truly objective. Listen to Karl's video. When the video stops and there is peace and quiet again it reminded me of riding my BBS01 after the X1. When I'm riding up 2000' of logging road I don't want to hear a grinding motor for 30 minutes. YMMV.

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