Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Joost5000 » Oct 02 2019 12:59am

I was thinking about the weight of the Enduro at 56 lbs 7lb motor/ 10lb battery?. the Apollo is 60 lbs with a 15lb motor and a 12lb battery. I wonder where all the weight is on this bike.

Also,
If you add ludicrous and battery +820 you start approaching Apollo territory. The Apollo is starting to seem like a reasonable deal. It’s also hand built as opposed to factory built which seems to have a few kinks that are getting discussed

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Kepler » Oct 02 2019 1:20am

Reality is that take the motor and battery out of both bikes and they would be of similar weight with the X1 probably a couple of pounds lighter then the Apollo.

X1 is not 56lb Wayne has confirmed 51lb. for reference, mine with the light battery and tubeless is 46lb

X1 motor and battery = 17lb
Apollo motor and battery = 27lb

So 10lb difference there.

Back to the actual weight of the X1 being 51lb and the Apollo being 60lb = 9lb difference there.

Take into account a slightly lighter frame of 2lb (estimate), we now have a difference of 11lb. (meaning the Apollo is closer to 62lb)

Seems to me like the difference in motor and battery weight are close enough to say it all adds up correctly. :)
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 02 2019 5:02am

Hi Kepler, my X1 (medium) weighs 56 pounds. Not sure what accounts for the heavier weight vs. your bike or Wayne's build but could be heavier rims, tube, cassette, dropper, etc. My question would be whether the 60 lb weight spec for the Apollo is correct. Luna originally said the X1 was under 50 pounds until I called them out on it.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Joost5000 » Oct 02 2019 9:35am

Kepler wrote:
Oct 02 2019 1:20am
Reality is that take the motor and battery out of both bikes and they would be of similar weight with the X1 probably a couple of pounds lighter then the Apollo.

X1 is not 56lb Wayne has confirmed 51lb. for reference, mine with the light battery and tubeless is 46lb

X1 motor and battery = 17lb
Apollo motor and battery = 27lb

So 10lb difference there.

Back to the actual weight of the X1 being 51lb and the Apollo being 60lb = 9lb difference there.

Take into account a slightly lighter frame of 2lb (estimate), we now have a difference of 11lb. (meaning the Apollo is closer to 62lb)

Seems to me like the difference in motor and battery weight are close enough to say it all adds up correctly. :)
Okay, That makes more sense :thumb:

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Joe King1 » Oct 02 2019 10:58am

As a recovering Weight Weenie I think people should avoid going down the rabbit hole of worrying about the small differences in weight of ebikes.

I have a 47lb. Bosch CX powered bike & a 55+lb. Bafang Ultra (Exess HP-E180). The additional power of the Bafang (1600w nominal vs. 250w-500w nominal) effectively masks the additional weight. A small additional weight on an ebikes are not as noticeable as on pedal powered bikes & in the mistaken belief that a performance advantage would be gained by lightening the bike, durability will be sacrificed. I have had to upgrade tires, wheels & chains.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Joost5000 » Oct 02 2019 11:15am

I’ve been there and back on the weight weenie stuff and realize it’s not worth the money. But with mountain bikes, I enjoy having less weight for jumping stuff. I replaced my son’s Bbs02 wolf pack with the wolf pup pack and it was so much more responsive cutting out those 5 extra pounds. With that said, my bikes are bbshds yuba Mundo ~80lbs and Jones fatbike ~60lbs.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Joost5000 » Oct 02 2019 11:27am

Tom wrote:
Sep 30 2019 9:06pm
Luna replied back they will not be willing to exchange the motor. They they said they tested 50 of them and they were all like mine, even the demo bike, somewhere between BBSHD and Cyclone in terms of noise. They asked if I have any mechanical ability to open the motor and apply grease. My knee jerk reaction is to ship the bike back to them and ask for a full refund including shipping both ways given they misrepresented this bike as silent no less than 3 times on the pre-order page. Then again, it's been far too much drama already, I may just eat the shipping costs and be done with it. I note they have revised the product page to now indicate the bike is "slightly louder than a BBSHD". I have no experience with that motor so can't say whether that accurately represents the noise or not. I shot another video today to see if the noise was dying down. I also did a comparison to my BBS01 just for grins. I'll upload it in a few...





Obviously there are more important things than noise to folks so I'm sure this bike will appeal to quite a few if you can live with the motor noise.
I’m not diggin the display they chose to use with this. It doesn’t appear to be enduro durable based on this video. I’d prefer no display or a low profile display like EggRider/SW-102 or 500c.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 02 2019 12:23pm

As far as the weight, I agree it's not that big of a deal (as long as it is still light enough), but every pound does makes a difference when you are lifting it over a downed tree or washout, onto a bike rack, into the back of a SUV, etc.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » Oct 02 2019 12:26pm

or up stairs into the house, apartment, office..
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by nathanchurch » Oct 02 2019 1:35pm

Yes, I store my X1 in my upstairs apartment. Lugging the X1 up the stairs takes a lot more effort than my other bikes. Nice having all that power available to tap into when on the trails, though!

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by tln » Oct 02 2019 10:20pm

Nathan and other X1 owners: how do you find the motor noise?

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Kepler » Oct 02 2019 10:37pm

Joost5000 wrote:
Oct 02 2019 11:27am


I’m not diggin the display they chose to use with this. It doesn’t appear to be enduro durable based on this video. I’d prefer no display or a low profile display like EggRider/SW-102 or 500c.
The display mount wont normally break I don't think. It weighs nothing and tucked in next to the head stem. I presume Tom knocked his fairly firmly.

I'm in two minds about the display. I like that it is small and tucked away but I can only read the speed clearly when riding. I can just make out the level of assist and battery condition but not a chance reading the rest without my glasses. (I am pretty old though :) ).

I think the small display fits the style of bike but it would be nice if there was an optional larger display with plenty of clear to read info.
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 02 2019 11:34pm

My display attachment came cracked off. Just luck of the draw. I don't think it will be a problem breaking for others. I didn't notice it at first and thought it just needed to be cinched up. Like Kepler, I have aging eyes and have a difficult time reading anything but the large print (speedometer / power assist) and battery life while riding but no big deal as that's all I care about.

As far as noise, there's some discussion over on the Luna forum: https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kn ... bike/page2

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by jimmyN » Oct 02 2019 11:53pm

There seems to be a lot of unhappy owners because of noise issues, has anyone measured it? you can download an app for your phone or buy a db. meter pretty cheap. it would be helpful to understand how loud is loud.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Kepler » Oct 03 2019 12:01am

I will give that a go. I rode this bike to work today mainly to do some range testing with my little battery. So taking the reading while riding, have the phone at say head height?
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Kepler » Oct 03 2019 12:16am

Tom wrote:
Oct 02 2019 11:34pm
My display attachment came cracked off. Just luck of the draw. I don't think it will be a problem breaking for others. I didn't notice it at first and thought it just needed to be cinched up. Like Kepler, I have aging eyes and have a difficult time reading anything but the large print (speedometer / power assist) and battery life while riding but no big deal as that's all I care about.

As far as noise, there's some discussion over on the Luna forum: https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kn ... bike/page2
Getting interesting over there. Good to know its just not you hey Tom :P

That's not a bad idea with putting some insulation between the motor and frame. Might give that a go.
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by nathanchurch » Oct 03 2019 9:39am

The display mount for mine was defective on arrival. I've temporarily jerry-rigged it with zip ties until I can come up with something better. I'm ok with the small black and white display itself since I prefer a stealth-look.

Regarding motor noise, it's definitely louder than I was expecting but I'm still evaluating it in different environments and I'm sure I'll get used to it. I just really preferred the idea of not being obvious that I'm riding an e-bike--the whole idea of stealth and sleek integration that this bike was marketed as. Also, from what some others have posted, I'm hoping after some more burn-in time that it will get a bit quieter.

Peddle assist is not very smooth compared to most other ebikes I've owned or rented. I wouldn't feel comfortable handing this bike off to a less experienced rider without some coaching. Love the power! Battery drain feels pretty fast, but then again, I was running with the (Black Fisher Fab House Special X-1 Edition 3200 Lumen LED) lights on for my longest ride. Oh, the button on the power assist lever (+, -, power/lights) indicates that it's supposed to control the lights--but doesn't. Maybe there's a way to get that configured?

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 03 2019 5:02pm

Luna is taking pre-orders again. Price is now $3700 for the standard config. Of note, the ludi controller includes throttle but it does NOT have a screwdriver setting to dial it back to street legal. Luna continues to misrepresent the bike as quiet and trail legal.
Weighing in at only 7 pounds, it still smashes other tiny drives on the market while retaining absolute stealth and quietness. While most other production bikes on the market are 250 watt Euro spec bikes with no throttle and no real power. With most limits in the USA set at 750 watts, this drive is perfectly suited for our market, allowing it to be used on most Class-1 trails legally with non-Ludicrous mode. Quiet power...
The bike is not class 1. It has a throttle and it can exceed 20 mph (the speed is limited to 28 mph and this setting can't be changed). The bike is class 3 and only street legal if you remove the throttle.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Kepler » Oct 03 2019 9:55pm

Kepler wrote:
Oct 03 2019 12:01am
I will give that a go. I rode this bike to work today mainly to do some range testing with my little battery. So taking the reading while riding, have the phone at say head height?
I tried measuring the noise level with a phone app. The app is quite sensitive to sound changes and seems to work quite well.

I mounted the phone on the handle bars using a quad lock. Riding at 20kph motor off. Noise level was at 85 db. This is the sound level of busy traffic. In this case it is due to tire and wind noise. Motor on assist level 3 (out of 5) 85db to 87db. You can hear the motor as there is a sound change however you can hardly notice any increase in sound level which matches what the DB meter is saying.

Not particularly scientific but still a reasonable ball park test of the sound my drive makes. I might be lucky and have a quiet one. I have however repacked the gear train and my drive has time to wear in (about 150 kms)
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Kepler » Oct 03 2019 10:01pm

Something else I noticed with the bike speed. My motor is the 45kph (28mph) version. This is stamped on the name plate. However, assist stops at 40kph (25mph). I have a 38 tooth chain ring. This is not a restriction due to gearing as it it stops assisting at 40kph even if I am in the 13 tooth or 11 tooth on the cassette.

Not that it worries me as I think 40kph is plenty for this type of bike. Wondering if others are seeing the same.

This was of course done in assist setting 5
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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by waynebergman » Oct 03 2019 10:36pm

Kepler my version does in fact top out at the 45kilometer limit.
This is plenty fast for me as well.

I think the DB meter is only useful for say in a closed room to compare two drives next to each other but even at that is it very hard to run the drives at a steady and common RPM to compare. Higher revs mean more noise, and I think in the wind anyreading is not going to be that helpful really. One DB meter may have a totally different reading even with the bike just coasting compared to another because of the way the wind will get registering on the device.Especialy so recording in the wind while moving and then the different tires etc on different bike come in to play as well. But in the end all sound recordings of these motors dont really give a very good acurate feel as to what the ear is picking up (but Toms is super noisy and not right). Just my opinion however.

I think also the best way to do a noise comparision is to leave a meter or video recorder sitting on one common place not to be moved between testing and sitting mid way between two drives in the comparision.

I think at this point the real issue and point of interest is to get a noisy unit like Tom has reported from Luna and open it up and see what is inside for grease and then re grease and see how the noise changes. If this was done with a video recorder in a set position and the bike flipped up side down before the repacak and then duplicated with everything in the same position and same RPM we would actually have some usefull info.

I feel sorry for Tom because his bike is too loud for sure, I would hope he can have it regreased or inspected some how.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by jimmyN » Oct 03 2019 11:30pm

I hung my (GNG kit) bike from the rafters in my garage closed the door held my meter at 18" from the motor and hit the throttle, it registered 76 db. a meter is the only way to really understand how loud is loud, everyone's hearing is different.

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by Tom » Oct 04 2019 12:41am

I tried to open up my motor following Kepler's instructions. Unfortunately I can't seem to figure out how to remove the spyder? from the motor. Do I need a special tool to get this off? Luna provides a tool kit but it's pretty much worthless.

Image

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Luna Cycle X1 unboxing and sound comparison with an Ultra

Post by robocam » Oct 04 2019 7:35am

Just thought I'd share this unboxing of a Ludicrous X1 with a sound comparison with an Ultra.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7-VXKLkwZ0&lc

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Re: Luna Cycle X-1 Enduro FS (Bafang M600 / Dengfu M09)

Post by robocam » Oct 04 2019 8:43am

Can someone shed some light regarding programming the M600 on the X1? Why do they say that even if we have the tool, we can't program it because we don't have the firmware file? Is the drive locked to the dealer that originally programmed the controller so that no one will ever be able to program it?

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 3e5fyQpDQI

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